Duane
Well-Known Member
Let me know if you got the email and if it’s readable. If anyone else would like at word
document of the Sanborn oiling mods with pics and written instructions, just pm me your email.
hard or soft copper line for a valley oil gallery bypass line?
- Thread starter Rapid Robert
- Start date
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document of the Sanborn oiling mods with pics and written instructions, just pm me your email.
Duane
Well-Known Member
D
Done
Duane
Well-Known Member
Wrong! The first goal is to stop feeding the drivers side lifters off of number 1 main.
No matter if you do the tubing of the drivers
side galley or the crossover. Both mods require a set screw at the front of the galley
Or in the bearing saddle to stop the flow to the lifters. That set screw is what stops the majority of the velocity on the galley. But then, you must run the crossover to the drivers side to resupply number one main
so that it has proper pressure. If you front oil the galley, no velocity at all, even better, completely forcing the oil to mains. Ideally you have the rear of the galley feeding 4&3 main and the front feeding 1&2. No way there is no flow, no way. You can’t use one galley to feed every part of the engine. Use two. You keep saying the tube does nothing and keep leaving out the set screw. Incidentally the crossover and the tubing of the block methods were both developed by Chrysler. One for lifters that need pressurized oil and one if you only need splash oiling.
Both methods are mentioned and approve in that old performance book.
Why do you think those old fully grooved camshafts used to fail 2&4 main.
They created at pressure drop at those bearings trying to feed the rockers.
I spoke with comp cams about this a few years ago because I had that failure happen to me. 40 runs and 2&4 main had lost there crush. Comp told me the have not made those grooved cams for many many years now. If you rotate the cam bearing like in the stroker small block book, you never have that issue and all 4 mains oil identically at full volume and pressure.
Hydraulic lifters or pushrod oiling are not the only reason to send some oil to the lifters. I am using the comp cams bushed axle
Lifters. The bushing require some pressurized oil to live. I have a .030 feed hole in each bushing, but no pushrod oiling.
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Duane
Well-Known Member
So you decided to write a book post of what he should do but just the other day you jumped on me about reverse feeding number one main. You told him to plug number one. Ok, then how is that bearing getting its oil. And what else do you think that plug at the front of the galley is doing.
It cuts the velocity in the galley from feeding 10 leaks. Exacting angles of the crossover tube while resupplying the drivers side also helps slow the velocity specifically across
3&4 main. The fitting is strategically placed
Before the oil gets to those bearings.
The installation angles of those fittings help channel some volume of oil to the drivers side, rather then a hard ninety degree turn.
The angles of those fittings was Robert’s original question and is why I never did that mod.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
And I don't have an issue with that because that is what it does. What I am 100% against is what the OP said in post 4, in that it slows down the oil. It does not and it can't.
If you are running hydraulic lifters and want more oil at the mains the crossover will do that and with pushrod oiling it works too (or both hydraulic lifters and PR oiling).
But this fallacy that it slows down oil and that's the secret sauce just is wrong.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Duane
Well-Known Member
When you push the brake pedal on your car, after the pads hit the rotor you have pressure, but no flow because it’s a sealed system. An engine is not totally sealed. Because it is not sealed and the leaks are not uniformly distributed you can have lots of flow(velocity) in some areas and very little in others.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I forgot about pressure fed lifters. I don't usually use them. But yes, they need oil too.
If i'm modifying the oiling system I stop the lifter leaks.
I have never ever hurt a main bearing and Hurt a ton of rod bearing. If you are hurting main bearings there are other issuers and its not oil velocity.
Comp lied. Every roller I've ever seen from Comp has grooved main journals. In fact, I can't think of a brand of roller cam I've run that wasn't grooved. If you have one, I'd love to see the picture and I'm not talking about HR cams.
The lifter leaks are a big deal because all those leaks are stealing oil from the bearings. Those need to be stopped first.
Again, in a CONSTANT FLOW system once the passages are filled and the pump is keeping up you can plumb 10 hoses into a gallery and it won't change flow one iota. NADA. It can't because the internal leaks control flow. And whenever the bypass opens the pump is beyond keeping up. So adding extra oil from another source doesn't do anything. It can't.
I made a call this afternoon and cashed in a learning chip.
I'll sum it up.
Running two columns of fluid at each other will cause at whatever the two meet ZERO flow.
And If the pressure is different or if the pressure changes that point where there is no flow will move in the tube. And he said if it lands over a feed hole to the mains it can actually "wobble" back and forth over a feed and and oil will not go down to the mains.
And he said what I told 92b and that is so what if we are wrong. It doesn't have a damned thing to do with oiling the crank. He came on here and read a page or two of this and and said what I have been saying for decades. And that is velocity is NOT the issue.
Do you how many times I've had an engine come in with a crossover tube and not a damned thing else was done? I can't say for sure but I took my first one off in about 1985. And I got it dropped in my lap because it ate rod bearings like lifesavers. I took it off, tubed it and off he went. He never hurt another one.
And that's my point. The crossover isn't magic. It serves a purpose but making the rods get oil ain't it.
Now I've lost my place and the Windows garbage has made my font so big I can't hardly read it.
I'm going to check my mail and see if yours is there.
Let me know if you got the email and if it’s readable. If anyone else would like at word
Thanks Duane. Give me a bit. I'm breaking in a new to me lap top and we are not seeing eye to eye.
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So putting a 5/16(cross over) hole in the side of a 1/2in passenger side oil galley, will not slow down the oil after the 5/16 hole? I believe it will.
Duane
Well-Known Member
If a guy put in a crossover tube and nothing else, then the modification was not done right and it’s not effective. I give Rapid Robert credit because it sounds like he is trying to do it right and he knew enough to ask about the angles of the fitting. That mod has been around so long,that some guys just throw a piece of braided on there and hook it up any old place. I only ever had the main trouble that one time. And I could not even figure out the cause at first. Another member on here figured it out for me. I had a custom ground comp cam made a few years ago. It had the drilled through hole on number 2&4 journals. But I agree I’ve had
Some in the past with the grooves. Rotating the cam bearings and replumbing the supply
Eliminates that problem. Comp is aware of the potential issue.
Duane
Well-Known Member
I have to agree. And how much oil pressure is at #1 main that is trying to feed a cam bearing and 8 lifters with a 9/32 oil passage.
Thanks for the reply. Very informative.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
You know, I explained it as best I can. He wasn't satisfied or he doesn't agree and I'm fine with that. But to keep going over and over and over and over and over the same ground is a waste of time and bandwidth.
If you don't agree just say what you want and move on.
BTW, I can tell you've I've seen the results from the "you can't over oil an engine crowd" and the answer is yes, you can. The oil has to be in specific places at specific times. Bringing in oil from two directions isn't an answer IN MY OPINION because i have seen the results.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Why do you think Chrysler designed front oiling bosses right into the casting of the “X”
and “R” blocks if they thought it was not beneficial. The guy made you a simple drawing which is representative of the small block and asked you to explain why you are saying two columns of oil won’t flow. And you answer him with an insult. We had this discussion over 2-3 years ago and Rapid Robert was part of that discussion back then.
He had decided for his own reasons to perform that modification.
That Sanborn guy was a real racer who raced all three brands of small blocks and he said he could not get the Mopar to live until he performed those mods. That’s good enough proof for me and many others.
If it’s not for you, then yes we agree to disagree. But you came back on the forum with a new name and decided to have the whole conversation again. Bob Glidden used the crossover and oiling mods. That’s proof enough for me. The guy who developed the
Famed w2 head designed that oiling mod, that’s good enough for me.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
Right. We will agree to disagree and I'll continue to point out the fallacy of oil velocity and such. Because that is wrong.
I don't care who publishes it or who used it. Claiming you use it for anything other than supplying oil to the drivers side lifter bank is nonsense.
I can't help that you don't like me being here under another name. That's on you.
And its clear that what's good enough for you isn't good enough for me.
BTW and IIRC the guy who wrote the "How To Build A Chrysler Stroker" (I'd type out his name but the book is back in the library and I don't want to walk back in there and get it and I don't want to butcher his name) isn't claiming its a velocity issue any more.
FWIW, Chrysler put that oil feed port up there for the dry sump guys to get the in at the front.
If the pump and the galleries are sized correctly, adding another oil feed does absolutely nothing. It's not one feed is feeding two mains and the other is feeding two mains. All that is coming off the same feed. Unless you pull the oil off before it gets to the main feed.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Velocity is just another word for excessive flow or speed if you will.The crossover line does supply oil to the other side and if done right only slows the oil at #3&4 main, the majority of the speed is killed by the front setscrew. When you tube the passenger galley, it cuts the leaks to the lifters. But the set screw that gets put into the saddle cuts the flow to the drivers side lifters, but doing that also cuts the speed or excessive flow
In the galley allowing it to better make the turn to the mains. If you get more oil to the mains, you get more to the rods too.
Read the Sanborn notes I sent you. He never used full groove mains, and he front oils too, and runs a crossover,even with bushed lifter bores. Way different than most of what you have said. We have talked about
Passages sizes, pressure drops, entry and exit angle of fittings,front oiling, but you are hung up on terminology and keep talking
about the crossover as if that the entire mod.
It is not the entire mod and you keep taking things out of context. You refuse to explain your opposing oil columns even when a drawing is supplied and a member asks you to explain so that he might learn something.
Coming back on here under a new name and starting a rehash from what 3 years ago imho looks like you are praying on the unsuspecting, but hey, that just me.
I don’t like the new name only because I like to know who I talking to.
The crossover mod alone is not good enough
For me. Neither is tubing the block. I have learned and made improvement from the experience of others. The stroker small block
Mods go even further. I’ve implemented them too and I have had a custom cometic
Head gasket designed based on Sanborn cooling mods that a few members on here told me works well. I supplied pictures of the part number so that any member can buy it.
Duane
Well-Known Member
In your last paragraph you say the front oil boss is for dry sump. Yes you could use it that way, if class rules allow. You say that in front oiling, that all the oil is from one feed, unless you pull the oil off before it gets to the main. Well you have Sanborns notes. You pull the feed out of the filter area. That is before the mains.
Every part of the motor is from one feed. The problem is the distribution. I don’t understand how you don’t see the issue with
#1 main, but you understand how the grooved journal camshaft cause main bearing failure. Its the same problem. A small
Diameter feed passage off of a main bearing,
Trying to feed a galley full of leaks. That main never gets full pressure. 1 main is trying to feed the entire lifter galley from a 9/32 feed passage into a 1/2 passage full of lifter leaks. The oil speeds down the passenger side galley trying to keep up. That is the heart of the problem. Plugging that galley stops the majority. Front oil probably evens out the pressures. But no way it can’t go to the mains because high pressure goes to low pressure.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
First of all, I didn't come on here to hash anything out. Once again, the crossover shows up and it doesn't do what is claimed.
I get why Sanborn did it. He was pushrod oiling. He had to get oil over there.
I'll say it again. Oil velocity has nothing to do with the rods not getting oil. I have never hurt a main bearing. ever. So I can't say why you are. And I understand that the crossover isn't done by itself but I have seen it done by itself.
As to oiling the rod bearings, you first have to stop the leaks at the lifters. Once you do that, there is more oil for the bearings. Then you have to do something with oil to the rockers IF there are getting full time oiling with a groove around the cam bearings. More oil for the rods.
The next thing is getting the inlet side of the pump as big as you can. The higher the grade of oil, the harder it is to get oil up the pickup. The higher the RPM the worse it is. In the 1978 Mopar Performance book, they cover this. they tested a HV pump against a standard pump with the factory sized pick up and the two flowed exactly the same. Until they got two 1 inch pick up tubes on it. the pumps flowed the same. I don't think you need two 1 inch pickup tubes with today's oil but clearly the OE sized pickup doesn't do any good as far as a HV pump goes.
How many guys are adding HV pumps expecting more oil flow and it didn't do a thing???
I can't remember for sure if Sanborn ands I discussed bearing clearances but that is another issue. Big bearing clearances increase how much oil the engine uses. For a Chrysler sized rod bearing I'm all the way down to .0021 and for the mains I'm at .0023. That decreases oil demand at the bearings. IIRC he was still running 20W50 oil but I'm not 100% sure if I am remembering that correctly. He was a circle track guy so I'm pretty sure he was still stuck on that oil. That oil and the clearances it requires increases the demand for oil at the bearings. Not good.
And we aren't even talking about the crossover yet. If you do what I have outlined above you an run 7500 all day long. No need for a crossover. And the oil isn't moving too fast.
As to getting oil and no flow, you need to look at it as it is. You can have what another guy called "wobble" but I don't call it that. He said there are varying pressures across the main oil gallery. If you run two columns of oil against each other, every time the pressure changes in the gallery the flow will will move back and forth in the pipe. If the rate of change is fast enough the oil will stall. That's the word I was looking for. Stall. That's what it was called by the guy who did the mods on that TA block engine I had. The flow will stall where the two columns meet. And somewhere the oil won't go to the bearings. Different diameters have different pressures. Different lengths of pipe have different pressures.
If the engines needed more oil then we'd have hoses plugged in everywhere. They don't need more oil. They need oil at the right time at the bearings. The crossover does nothing to address that.
I'm going to print off Sanborn's notes today so I have a copy.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything except oil speed. I understand the number 1 main is feeding the entire drivers side. That's idiotic. But all the nonsense of the crossover and all the extra things done for it are a waste of time. There are better ways to feed the drivers side lifters than the crossover. And I'll say it again, oil speed is not a factor. It's there to get oil to the drivers side lifter bank.
All that other stuff is useless unless you are going over 7500. The biggest issues are the pickup side of the pump and the leaks.
BTW, a dry sump generally has one pressure side and 3 or 4 pick up sides. That's an example for Chrysler guys to look very hard at. We don't have nearly enough area of pick up tube for the pump.
But the book told them they needed the HV pump. and 8qt oil pan. lol
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
And it's not like this is new information. It's OLD. I always start with the pickup side of the pump.
It's still a useless endeavor without drilling the oil passages.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
That too. We've all seen blocks that didn't have the feeds to mains at full size, let alone at 9/32 or 5/16.
Duane
Well-Known Member
Both of these mods are designed to cut or restrict oil to the lifters. That’s a given.
No argument from me there.
There is just more than one way to do it.
I agree with you that installing a crossover tube and nothing else is not effective.
I took the time to email you Sanborns notes.
Please read it. Don’t put your own interpretation on what he says.
There is a specific paragraph where he explains where he puts a cup plug to stop feeding the galley from number 1 main.
Yes the tube is put in to feed the galley and
if needed pushrod oiling. But what you continue to leave out is why we are always
Blocking the oil to #1 main. If you were running solid lifters, you would not need to tube the drivers side galley. We don’t want those lifter leaks, but you just need the set screw to cut the flow to that side.
If you want to ask any individual why he is putting in a crossover, you should first ask him if he knows to put in the set screw. If he says no or does not know about it, then there would be a validity to your argument,
but afaik you never asked Rapid Robert about the screw, you just focus on the crossover alone. Perhaps we should call the
Modification the Set screw with crossover mod lol. No arguments about all you said about the two columns. I heard another guy call it turbulence. You could tube the lifter galley. But after you dimple the tube with the dummy lifter, that galley is not nice and round anymore and who knows what exact path that oil will take. Who knows exactly
Where those two columns will meet. It matters not. The oil will still end up at the bearings because it is under pressure and has nowhere else to go except those 4 leaks.
Your rods only get oil from the mains.
I have never totally failed a main bearing either, but I know lots of guys who failed rod bearings. I was just saying if you improve the supply to the mains, you are also insuring supply to the rods.
Sanborn shows you how he modifies the main bearings to get more oil to the rods.
You will never understand the oil speed in the galley because you refuse or don’t understand the issue at number one main.
Number one main is the supply to all the drivers side lifter bores. Those bores leak.
We are in total agreement on that.
We have to cut or stop those lifter leaks.
But Sanborn explains that the main problem
Is the design of the sbm tries to feed those
Lifters from #1 main. Number 1 main is at the very end of the passenger galley. You might as well say that the end of the galley has a great big leak. With a hv pump and high pressure relief spring and a big leak=
big speed in that galley as the pump tries to keep up. That is the root of the problem.
Whether you bush the block, tube the block,
or set screw and crossover the block, all three methods have the same goal to stop the leaks at the lifters and stop supply to the lifters from number one main so that main gets proper volume and pressure. The other main bearings are also helped as well.
Front oiling helps that problem even more.
Did you not notice that Sanborn used bushed
Lifter bores. I am sure they were restricted
Because of the pushrod oiling. So why did he need a crossover if he bushed those bores.
Why not feed that restricted galley from number one main. Think about that.
He already had a supply to the drivers side.
His lifter were bushed. Why a crossover.
He does not even reverse feed number one.
One of his pictures shows where he puts in the plug to block flow from number one.
Because number one main is where all the
Oiling issues begin. You think two columns of oil can’t flow, but you also think a long galley
With a big leak on the end doesn’t flow like crazy(velocity) either. It has to, to try to keep up with those 10 leaks. Look at the Chevy. One galley of oil right from the pump and filter to the cam and main bearings. The lifters are fed from their own galley. That’s what we are trying to do in the sbm.
Dedicate the passenger galley as main bearing supply only.All the galleys in the chev are sealed at the end. The Mopar is not. That is why the blocking of #1 main is way more important than the tube.
No argument from me there.
There is just more than one way to do it.
I agree with you that installing a crossover tube and nothing else is not effective.
I took the time to email you Sanborns notes.
Please read it. Don’t put your own interpretation on what he says.
There is a specific paragraph where he explains where he puts a cup plug to stop feeding the galley from number 1 main.
Yes the tube is put in to feed the galley and
if needed pushrod oiling. But what you continue to leave out is why we are always
Blocking the oil to #1 main. If you were running solid lifters, you would not need to tube the drivers side galley. We don’t want those lifter leaks, but you just need the set screw to cut the flow to that side.
If you want to ask any individual why he is putting in a crossover, you should first ask him if he knows to put in the set screw. If he says no or does not know about it, then there would be a validity to your argument,
but afaik you never asked Rapid Robert about the screw, you just focus on the crossover alone. Perhaps we should call the
Modification the Set screw with crossover mod lol. No arguments about all you said about the two columns. I heard another guy call it turbulence. You could tube the lifter galley. But after you dimple the tube with the dummy lifter, that galley is not nice and round anymore and who knows what exact path that oil will take. Who knows exactly
Where those two columns will meet. It matters not. The oil will still end up at the bearings because it is under pressure and has nowhere else to go except those 4 leaks.
Your rods only get oil from the mains.
I have never totally failed a main bearing either, but I know lots of guys who failed rod bearings. I was just saying if you improve the supply to the mains, you are also insuring supply to the rods.
Sanborn shows you how he modifies the main bearings to get more oil to the rods.
You will never understand the oil speed in the galley because you refuse or don’t understand the issue at number one main.
Number one main is the supply to all the drivers side lifter bores. Those bores leak.
We are in total agreement on that.
We have to cut or stop those lifter leaks.
But Sanborn explains that the main problem
Is the design of the sbm tries to feed those
Lifters from #1 main. Number 1 main is at the very end of the passenger galley. You might as well say that the end of the galley has a great big leak. With a hv pump and high pressure relief spring and a big leak=
big speed in that galley as the pump tries to keep up. That is the root of the problem.
Whether you bush the block, tube the block,
or set screw and crossover the block, all three methods have the same goal to stop the leaks at the lifters and stop supply to the lifters from number one main so that main gets proper volume and pressure. The other main bearings are also helped as well.
Front oiling helps that problem even more.
Did you not notice that Sanborn used bushed
Lifter bores. I am sure they were restricted
Because of the pushrod oiling. So why did he need a crossover if he bushed those bores.
Why not feed that restricted galley from number one main. Think about that.
He already had a supply to the drivers side.
His lifter were bushed. Why a crossover.
He does not even reverse feed number one.
One of his pictures shows where he puts in the plug to block flow from number one.
Because number one main is where all the
Oiling issues begin. You think two columns of oil can’t flow, but you also think a long galley
With a big leak on the end doesn’t flow like crazy(velocity) either. It has to, to try to keep up with those 10 leaks. Look at the Chevy. One galley of oil right from the pump and filter to the cam and main bearings. The lifters are fed from their own galley. That’s what we are trying to do in the sbm.
Dedicate the passenger galley as main bearing supply only.All the galleys in the chev are sealed at the end. The Mopar is not. That is why the blocking of #1 main is way more important than the tube.
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