Performance Questions 225 vs. 360

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Says who?

Either way, let's not argue in the thread. >.>

Oh,don't get your panties all bunched up.
Bill and I have had this same spirited debate for some time. No one is arguing.
You talked about building on a small budget. Go ahead and build a turbo slant,and then tell us how that works out for you.
Plus it's going in a 74 Duster. That's a heavy car.
As many have stated...360
 
Oh,don't get your panties all bunched up.
Bill and I have had this same spirited debate for some time. No one is arguing.
You talked about building on a small budget. Go ahead and build a turbo slant,and then tell me how that works out for you.

That's why I made the thread. To ask if it was financially feasible. I had searched ebay and googled and looked at other people's cost estimates in their threads, but wanted to be sure that there wasn't a simpler or cheaper option.

I didn't mean to come off urked. Sorry. I was just afraid this was going to turn into a flame war. I forget sometimes that this board is a bit more mature than some of the internet forums I belong to x-x I could just see this going into a downward spiral rapidly. You have my apologies.
 
I didn't mean to come off urked. Sorry. I was just afraid this was going to turn into a flame war. I forget sometimes that this board is a bit more mature than some of the internet forums I belong to x-x I could just see this going into a downward spiral rapidly. You have my apologies.

You have nothing to apologize for,you did nothing wrong. It's all good.
The /6 vs V8 debate always gets somewhat heated. I can only speak from my experiences with the two. I spent pretty good money on both these builds,and they both run very well. They both have some of the best,off the shelf speed parts available. The slant is fun in a nostalgia kind of way,and yes everybody has a V8. But if we are talking about a shear performance comparison between the two,its not even close. The V8 will Dust the lil slant every time. Hands down.
So,the choice is yours.

Either way I wish you the best.
 

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That's why I made the thread. To ask if it was financially feasible. I had searched ebay and googled and looked at other people's cost estimates in their threads, but wanted to be sure that there wasn't a simpler or cheaper option.

Realistically, how much do you imagine this project is going to cost regardless of which engine you choose? have you researched parts/prices etc and come up with an actual budget? I would suggest at least outlining whatever "it" is on paper and looking in to price/availability/viability.

Either way, you ain't getting a rebuilt engine done for under $3,000 including all the surrounding stuff necessary to make it all work together. With that in mind, you'd be a lot closer to reliable performance with the V8, end of story. I don't think we can make it any clearer.

Think about it - any boosted engine is gonna need fairly good ring seal, no matter what the performance goal. That's at least a re-ring and hone job. You also want the valves to seal so that's a valve job on the head and probably new valves, cam, springs, lifters, gaskets, blah blah blah. Not much aftermarket support for the Slant so again, on your own.

With a decent rebuild job and really basic bolt ons, the 360 will easily make 300 hp. Standard 360 rebuild parts are REALLY cheap, like almost SBC cheap but not quite. I'd like to know the cost difference between a basic rebuild for these two engines, all machine work being equal. Be a good comparison.

Read here for some basic combos. Study what parts they are using for each and look at the cost.

We're telling you to go with the V8 for a reason, you will get BETTER VALUE FOR YOUR MONEY with the 360 or even a roller 318 for that matter. Seriously, forget the Slant. That's for guys who've been messing with them for years and are trying to prove a point. Again, not worth it in every respect. You will not look back with the 360.
 
Realistically, how much do you imagine this project is going to cost regardless of which engine you choose? have you researched parts/prices etc and come up with an actual budget? I would suggest at least outlining whatever "it" is on paper and looking in to price/availability/viability.

Either way, you ain't getting a rebuilt engine done for under $3,000 including all the surrounding stuff necessary to make it all work together. With that in mind, you'd be a lot closer to reliable performance with the V8, end of story. I don't think we can make it any clearer.

Think about it - any boosted engine is gonna need fairly good ring seal, no matter what the performance goal. That's at least a re-ring and hone job. You also want the valves to seal so that's a valve job on the head and probably new valves, cam, springs, lifters, gaskets, blah blah blah. Not much aftermarket support for the Slant so again, on your own.

With a decent rebuild job and really basic bolt ons, the 360 will easily make 300 hp. Standard 360 rebuild parts are REALLY cheap, like almost SBC cheap but not quite. I'd like to know the cost difference between a basic rebuild for these two engines, all machine work being equal. Be a good comparison.

Read here for some basic combos. Study what parts they are using for each and look at the cost.

We're telling you to go with the V8 for a reason, you will get BETTER VALUE FOR YOUR MONEY with the 360 or even a roller 318 for that matter. Seriously, forget the Slant. That's for guys who've been messing with them for years and are trying to prove a point. Again, not worth it in every respect. You will not look back with the 360.

Thanks. Good info. I'll do some research and see what I can find. 3k on engine upgrade isn't feasible yet though, so perhaps I will just paint and clean up the one I have, then swap something else in down the road when I have plenty of money to dress it up how I want.



EDIT: Btw, gorgeous engines, Johnny Dart. Were those for personal vehicles? Or do you build engines to sell?
 
Thanks. Good info. I'll do some research and see what I can find. 3k on engine upgrade isn't feasible yet though, so perhaps I will just paint and clean up the one I have, then swap something else in down the road when I have plenty of money to dress it up how I want.



EDIT: Btw, gorgeous engines, Johnny Dart. Were those for personal vehicles? Or do you build engines to sell?

This might be the best plan. Clean up and run what you got. Then plan for the future.

Kinda like the difference between building what you got and building what you really want.
 
What's missing here is a $ estimate to get the slant to his goal.

I think a big factor is going to be the fab factor of bulding a slant. More time involved. Could be a lot of fun if you like that kind of thing. If you like being a different and don't mind that a slant doesn't tickle the ears, I'd go for it. There's enough guys doing it here to show the way.
 
Originally you only wanted 175hp which 65hp over stock add headers, cam, intake should get you close and head work would put you over if you want more than a warmed over /6 I guess turbo it or go V8.
 
Originally you only wanted 175hp which 65hp over stock add headers, cam, intake should get you close and head work would put you over if you want more than a warmed over /6 I guess turbo it or go V8.

And full circle again XD

Do you have any suggestions for brands/types on headers or cams? Just while I'm taking notes.
 
And full circle again XD

Do you have any suggestions for brands/types on headers or cams? Just while I'm taking notes.

Check MeMike's Victoria out. That is one clean slanty and as good an example of any driver style hopped up six popper.
 
EDIT: Btw, gorgeous engines, Johnny Dart. Were those for personal vehicles? Or do you build engines to sell?

Thanks
Personal vehicles...360 1970 Dart. 225 1965 Dart

Something else to remember is the power to weight ratio.
Pretty much every quick slant is in a lightweight early A.
You are working with a much heavier 74 Duster. Big difference.
 
You have nothing to apologize for,you did nothing wrong. It's all good.
The /6 vs V8 debate always gets somewhat heated. I can only speak from my experiences with the two. I spent pretty good money on both these builds,and they both run very well. They both have some of the best,off the shelf speed parts available. The slant is fun in a nostalgia kind of way,and yes everybody has a V8. But if we are talking about a shear performance comparison between the two,its not even close. The V8 will Dust the lil slant every time. Hands down.
So,the choice is yours.

Either way I wish you the best.

Johnny,

The fact that you "forgot" to add the hairdryer to your /6 is probably why you keep telling us that your 360 is faster than your slant six. If you had built the slanty with forced induction, the story might have a different ending.

I'm basing that on your reluctance to answer my quetion (three times, now) as to whether your 360 will outrun Tom Wolfe's turbo'd /6 in the video ('70 Dart, 11.02, at 3,300 pounds + driver weight.)

I'm taking that as a "no." Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said, that is a 9:1 compression car with 1 four-barrel with a flat tappet cam and a homemade header. NOTHING exotic at all on the car. It has a 2.73:1 rear axle ratio.


I hope and pray that our car will stay within shouting distance of it once we get it sorted out. Our engine is, as I said, a copy-cat version of his.

My other car is a 1972 Valiant that has a stock (except for the cam) 360 Magnum (see pix) with a Vortech supercharger and made 445 RWHP on a chassis dyno. It has run 9.69 @ 106mph in 1,000 feet (equates to about 11.6 @ 118 in the quarter-mile) but that was with a greasy track, a 3.55 Ring & Pinion, and some worn-out 8" slicks that were spinning all the way through first gear. My 60-foot time was only 1.81-sec... really poor. I have, since then, installed a limited-slip 4.10 and added some 9"-wide slicka, so I think it will probably pick up .3 or so in the quarter. We'll see,

But, even if it picks up that much, Tom Wolfe's equal-weight /6 car will still outrun me.

That is with 10 pounds of boost, the maximum I dare run with stock (cast) pistons.

I'd love to see you add a turbo to your slant six and see if your 360 will still outrun it,

That would be interesting!:blob:

Thanks for the discussion, and no, we don't argue... we discuss. You get more done that way.

Here are some pictures of the two cars of mine, in question:
 

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Realistically, how much do you imagine this project is going to cost regardless of which engine you choose? have you researched parts/prices etc and come up with an actual budget? I would suggest at least outlining whatever "it" is on paper and looking in to price/availability/viability.

Either way, you ain't getting a rebuilt engine done for under $3,000 including all the surrounding stuff necessary to make it all work together. With that in mind, you'd be a lot closer to reliable performance with the V8, end of story. I don't think we can make it any clearer.

Think about it - any boosted engine is gonna need fairly good ring seal, no matter what the performance goal. That's at least a re-ring and hone job. You also want the valves to seal so that's a valve job on the head and probably new valves, cam, springs, lifters, gaskets, blah blah blah. Not much aftermarket support for the Slant so again, on your own.

With a decent rebuild job and really basic bolt ons, the 360 will easily make 300 hp. Standard 360 rebuild parts are REALLY cheap, like almost SBC cheap but not quite. I'd like to know the cost difference between a basic rebuild for these two engines, all machine work being equal. Be a good comparison.

Read here for some basic combos. Study what parts they are using for each and look at the cost.

We're telling you to go with the V8 for a reason, you will get BETTER VALUE FOR YOUR MONEY with the 360 or even a roller 318 for that matter. Seriously, forget the Slant. That's for guys who've been messing with them for years and are trying to prove a point. Again, not worth it in every respect. You will not look back with the 360.

If he keeps it simple, a 318 or 360 can be done for well under 3K. A junkyard 5.9 is an easy way. Numerous members have done it and made power well above his goal for about half that. It could be done for substantially less. There's examples in this thread:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=209590

That does not however include upgrading the rear diff. That can be done for about $400, with an 8.8 with bonus rear discs. Not sure on the cost of a V8 tranny and K member. I'll make a guess and say $300 if he's patient about finding deals.

Sounds like a slant can make his goal of 200 HP without a turbo. Nobody has given an estimate of cost to do so.

Why all this talk about 500 HP engines? Not what he's shooting for.

Bill, that's some hairy lookin wiring on that Valiant! :D You are a turbo fanatic. I like it. I'm watching to see what the Dart will do.
 
Iam building a slant because i want to its a bucket list thing cost ouch
1200 port work
other engine work 1200
pistons and rods etc 1200
superhcarger 6000
dizzy 400
wires 150
cam 150
rewelded k frame doing myself 400 + elsewhere
Hotchkiss tvs 2200
brakes 2000 front and rear
rearend and goodies 1600
transmission 700
mis expen 1200
total
tires and rims 1600

totally when done i will have easy 16,000 in setup
you cant build a car without the things that make it run also well you can but saftey and all over performance are key
or you can buy this 5,000$ 360 crate http://www.indyheads.com/newla.html with suspension and brake and rearend upgrades and save money and have a car that is fun but less extravegent or as some would say a stupid choice by me. But its my money if i want to put 20,000 in a colt its my perogotive as it yours. Have fun and enjoy your Abody
360engineb.jpg

orangebox.jpg
360 Magnum With Indy MA-X Cast Iron Heads**** Your Best Value Under $5,000.00! ****
 
If he keeps it simple, a 318 or 360 can be done for well under 3K. A junkyard 5.9 is an easy way. Numerous members have done it and made power well above his goal for about half that. It could be done for substantially less. There's examples in this thread:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=209590

That does not however include upgrading the rear diff. That can be done for about $400, with an 8.8 with bonus rear discs. Not sure on the cost of a V8 tranny and K member. I'll make a guess and say $300 if he's patient about finding deals.

Sounds like a slant can make his goal of 200 HP without a turbo. Nobody has given an estimate of cost to do so.

Why all this talk about 500 HP engines? Not what he's shooting for.
that's some hairy lookin wiring on that Valiant! :D You are a turbo fanatic. I like it. I'm watching to see what the Dart will do.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I talk about the 500hp slant sixes because

1. I think it's about as easy to build a 500HP slant Six as it is a 300HP slant six and faster is always better, in my warped mind.

2. Johnny Dart (the guy with the beautiful engines!!!) has a slant that won't outrun his 360, and I think that MAYBE one of these 500 slants MIGHT get the job done. Maybe not...

But, it doesn't have to be "slow" just because it's a /6.

My wiring skills are not... (not "skills" obviously.)

I am embasrrassed and ashamed of that wiring, and need to fix it. One of these days, I will. In the meaantime, no one has been electrocuted

Insofar as my being a turbo fanatic, maybe I am... but it just seems like the ONLY way to get real, meaningful performance out of a slant six. I love those leaning towers of power and they have SUCH potential... IF they can just be made to breathe.

They are hamstrung by the 170 cylinder head, though, and forced induction, which they seem to be MADE for, works so well on them... making an end-run around the built-in problems they all have... it just seems like the right thing to do!

Steve Nitti's centrifugally supercharged slant is also fast... so, a turbo is not the only way to salvation for these little engines. ANYTHING to cram that air in there will work... because they can take it!

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!

Bill,
 
Johnny,

I'm basing that on your reluctance to answer my quetion (three times, now) as to whether your 360 will outrun Tom Wolfe's turbo'd /6 in the video ('70 Dart, 11.02, at 3,300 pounds + driver.

No Bill,
My 360 is not a 11sec car,nor did I build it to be an 11sec car. Its a street car,not a drag car,as all the tracks in my area are all but gone.But it is no slouch either,and I don't fear to many slant cars. Sure there are a couple slant turbo cars in this big world,but that's an anomaly.


But I'm still not sure what your point is ?
There are turbo V8 Mopar cars all over YouTube running low 9's...:dontknow:

I have a Hot Rod magazine from 2000,with the Guru of everything slanted
Doug Dutra. With a clapped out 70 Duster,with "Every"single trick in his book,including a 100 shot of the laughing gas ! The best he could do was
a 13.576 at 99.23. Again,this car had every trick he could throw at it !
Meanwhile,
Miss Johnson could go down to the local Dodge dealer,and buy a stock
340 Dart,pizza cutter tires and all,and go door handle to door handle with Mr.Dutra.
And then go get her groceries.:D
 
I'm sure if Johnny Dart added 150 shot of Nos that would get the job done. That's why I said earlier its unfair to compare a turbo /6 against N/A v8 if do the similar mods to each engine the v8 gonna win, you do /6 cause you want to do one its never a better choice unless there's a racing class out there with rules that would favor a /6.
 
Johnny,

I'm basing that on your reluctance to answer my quetion (three times, now) as to whether your 360 will outrun Tom Wolfe's turbo'd /6 in the video ('70 Dart, 11.02, at 3,300 pounds + driver.

No Bill,
My 360 is not a 11sec car,nor did I build it to be an 11sec car. Its a street car,not a drag car,as all the tracks in my area are all but gone.But it is no slouch either,and I don't fear to many slant cars. Sure there are a couple slant turbo cars in this big world,but that's an anomaly.


But I'm still not sure what your point is ?
There are turbo V8 Mopar cars all over YouTube running low 9's...:dontknow:

I have a Hot Rod magazine from 2000,with the Guru of everything slanted
Doug Dutra. With a clapped out 70 Duster,with "Every"single trick in his book,including a 100 shot of the laughing gas ! The best he could do was
a 13.576 at 99.23. Again,this car had every trick he could throw at it !
Meanwhile,
Miss Johnson could go down to the local Dodge dealer,and buy a stock
340 Dart,pizza cutter tires and all,and go door handle to door handle with Mr.Dutra.
And then go get her groceries.:D

Well. we could "discuss" all day long about the vagariess of which engine has more potentiai, but I will just say this. The stock 340 Dusters I saw run that were "showroom stock" and on OEM tires, ran pretty consistent 14.40s, a long way from a 13.56. I was a tech guy at the local drag strip (Des Moines Dragway) and teched in most of those cars, while runing the clocks a lot of the time.

Of COURSE, you can used forced induction on a 360 and outrun a car with an engine that is only 5/8ths as big.

Only an idiot would contend that those 135 cubic inches mean nothing, in the power-production department.

But, you can give the small engine a better chance by allowing forced induction on the little fellow.

Now. you have parity.

My point is that using a power-adder like turbocharging on the little engine can give it a fighting chance against an engine that is 60-percent larger.

It can't measure up to a well-built 360 in terms of all-out horsepower, even with turbo, but it can produce enough grunt to satisfy must butts in the seats.

Tom Wolfe attached a Buick G/N turbo to 225 that was bone stock (except for a 4bbl carb and manifold) and ran 12.95... over half a second quicker than Doug Dutra's effort. Maybe that will illustrate the effectiveness of forced induction on these engines.

Here is the video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

The head had never been off that engine.

All that does is give credence to my contention to the theory that that engine doesn't breathe very well without some help (in the form of a turbo or a supercharger.)

Steve Nitti's belt-driven (centrifugal) supercharged slant six Duster runs 11.0's and will likely be in the tens soon.

That beautiful slant six of yours just needs a hairdryer and the appropriate ancillary parts to be a really exciting ride...

But your 360 might need some performance upgrades to stay ahead of it, normally-aspirated.:blob:

Try it; you might like it!!! :sign7:
 
I'm sure if Johnny Dart added 150 shot of Nos that would get the job done. That's why I said earlier its unfair to compare a turbo /6 against N/A v8 if do the similar mods to each engine the v8 gonna win, you do /6 cause you want to do one its never a better choice unless there's a racing class out there with rules that would favor a /6.

Look at what you are saying:

That a 360 cubic inch engine would need a 150 shot of N20 to beat an engine that is only 5/8ths as big. if it had a turbo.

Of course, there are 360s that are built for racing that can run ALL OVER that turbo'd slant six; HE'S the one who said that HIS 360 was a lot faster than his 225 slant six.

Of course it is. With an extra 135 cubic inches, why wouldn't it be?

But if an "equalizer" (hairdryer) were added to the six, the picture may change...

That's all I'm sayin'.
 
you want dirt cheap >>>

73 duster slant six 3 speed car of which the slant six was pulled and tossed in a ditch

318/727 off CL for 400 bucks
cheap *** summit headers 120 bucks (optional) though you would need the correct manifolds

conversion mounts 80 bucks
88 lebaron radiator and shroud 40 bucks
performer intake , just because 75 bucks (optional)
1406 edelbrock carb just because 60 bucks(optional)
HEI ignition 50 bucks just because(optional)
drive shaft shortened ONLY because im using a 727 otherwise the slant shaft works with the V8 904 65 bucks
existing wiring, throttle cable and trans mounts



NOTHING ELSE was touched...nothing


i have just under a grand for the entire deal, including all new hoses, belt and fresh fluids.

this car is daily driven going on 2 years strong and it has taken a beating. it stops great on the drums, and ive tested them. for what it is , this little car boogies on down the road and is fast for what it is...bone stock 67 318 with a 4 barrel and headers.

bang for the buck? this is it. that ole slant could never dream of running this good especially for the money.
i did this by myself in 8 hours ....running

no, im not bashing the 6 cylinder
 

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I would rather have a fast 15 sec slant over a slow 15 sec 360.I LOVE getting lined up against the v8s.Yea with a 90 shot my car runs 10.57 at 128mph,,NA so far my best is 11.42,so slants can run.Guzzi Mark
 
Bill Dedman I think I know your coming from now you can take a near stock /6 throw on a turbo and beat most V8 and have a pretty Kool ride for a reasonable amount of dollars, but your still comparing apples to oranges.
 
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