Got fuel, spark, comp but no start

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mopar4x4stroker

mopar4x4stroker

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My 86 ram with a freshly rebuilt 408 refuses to start. Its been on ongoing issue with both the mopar ignition and now with the msd 6al. The old teener it replaced ran fine, well, never a no start issue that is.

I have 170 in every hole, got fresh gas (ether too), good strong spark, but no boom.... I tried adv/rtd the timing but nothing. I even advanced it to the point that it was kickin back on the starter.

One thing I will mention, is it did this a couple weeks ago, couldn't figure it out. Then as last resort, I decided to try advancing the dizzy, wouldn't you know it, it fired right up. Now I was sure the dizzy was tight, but I thought maybe at high rpm harmonics loosened er up. Once I got it running, I warmed it up, reset the timing @ 19°, played with the mixture screws a bit, had it running great and then out of no were it dies. Like it was starving, try to feather it, but no luck. It'd start right back up and run/rev just fine. Then 3-4min later it'd do the same thing. I was tired and called it a night.

Now I've returned and the bloody pig won't even start not even a stumble, nothing :wack:

Anyone got some ideas? Im beginning to think I built a 4th element motor, I just don't know what that 4th element is. It ain't gas/air/spark cuz its got plenty of that. :banghead:
 
turn engine over to TDC no. 1 firing on the damper...where it line up with zero timing chain cover....

take off distributor cap...and see where the rotor is pointing...is it pointing at number 1 on the cap?
 
70aarcuda said:
turn engine over to TDC no. 1 firing on the damper...where it line up with zero timing chain cover....

take off distributor cap...and see where the rotor is pointing...is it pointing at number 1 on the cap?
Click to expand...



Tdc lines up with 0 on the damper when I first played with the timing. I put it at tdc and pulled the dizz to have a look at the cam gear and when I put it back in the rotor was pointing at the #1 tower on the cap. I then kept advancing it till it started. I havnt checked it since though. However it shouldn't have changed, unless, do I dare say... It jumped a link or two. I doubt it though, its a double roller.

Sucks, Im workin night shift 6 days a week and my shop (her home) is 20min away so its hard to find the time.
 
Probably a ign 1 ign 2 issue.check fire from the coil when you are cranking.I have had to change switches in the trucks
 
d5667 said:
Probably a ign 1 ign 2 issue.check fire from the coil when you are cranking.I have had to change switches in the trucks
Click to expand...

It has spark at the plugs so Id imagine it has spark at the coil. I've since replaced the switch, relay, starter, also has a good agm battery that's only a year old.
 
I've seen that, too. Dead spark on start circuit, when crossing back over to run position on the switch.

Maybe just an oversight, but have you checked your distributor against the cam, itself? Not the drive gear or rotor position, but the rotor position against cam position. Lots can happen between the cam and distributor on assembly.

For what it's worth, when the timing gears are set with the dots facing each other, instead of both facing up, the distributor gear slot is the same, but the rotor is actually at the firewall.

To check it easily, take the cap off of the distributor, pull the #1 plug and crank the engine a touch at a time by jumping the relay terminals, until you can feel pressure. As soon as you feel pressure, the rotor should be approaching the #1 plug wire terminal position on the cap.

That's the quickest way I know how to find true #1 position. Even if it turns out to be something else, it's peace of mind.
 
What you claim cannot happen. If you really do have

compression

spark (at the right time)

fuel (GOOD fuel)

It will RUN.

Numba Won (1)---pull the plugs and inspect them for fuel / oil fouling.

Teu (2) Stop screwing and guessing with timing. Set it ONCE and KNOW it will run and forget about it.

So Stick your finger in the no1 plug hole, and crank "bump" until you feel compression. Then pay attention to the timing marks and wrench the engine until the marks WHICH SHOULD BE ON THEIR WAY "UP" -- NOT NOT NOT to TDC but rather to where you want the intitial timing, IE about 15 BTC.

Set the distributor so that whatever plug tower has no1 wire in it is just being approached corner to corner by the rotor, and so that the reluctor is aligned with the center of the pickup coil.

Tha -REE (3) Now, since you have starting problems, METHODICALLY troubleshoot for spark. It is IMPORTANT to understand that testing for spark by cranking the engine by jumpering the starter relay IS NOT the same as using the KEY. This is because the coil resistor bypass circuit, (ign 2 mentioned above) is not active if you jumper the start relay. HOWEVER this can BE a useful exercise if you suspect that IGN2 has a PROBLEM.

MAKE CERTAIN the IGN system has POWER. Then use a grounded probe such as a clip lead and a screwdriver, held near the top of the COIL TOWER to check for spark. If you get a nice hot spark there, install the coil wire, and move your clip/ probe to a plug tower in the cap. Make sure to crank long enough that the rotor comes clear 'round' as the dist. only rotates ONCE for every TWO crank revolutions.

Go to the MSD page and download the destructions for the 6A. There is troubleshooting destructions in the install sheet.

If you did NOT get spark at the coil tower, find out WHY. DO you have power to the ignition?

The MSD should have a large red and black which go to battery and ground. The "small red" must have 12V to "energize" the box, and this is normally hooked to IGN1 / IGN2 when jumpered together. This is the old dark blue "ignition run" and the brown "bypass" circuit.

MAKE SURE the white wire is taped off safely and IS NOT grounded.

Fow-or (4)- If you DO have a nice hot spark, now get out your timing light, install all (good dry) plugs, hook up all the ignition, and use your timing light WITH THE STARTER to check initial timing. You want about 15 degrees or so at this point. If you get a nice rythmic spark at the light and the timing is OK, snug down the dist and DO NOT screw with it for now.

Fi -yive (5) Assuming you correctly installed the cam, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that it is going to move a tooth ON A NEW chain and or sprocket set.

seee--ix (6) Fuel. Has the car been sitting? How long? Are you sure "a friend" didn't help out with fuel contamination? Are you SURE?

If all the above is OK, you should be able to toss a little fuel down the carb, hit the starter and it WILL bang to life.

Other random comments:

I have no idea what you did, your skill, etc. How well did it run when it did run? What makes you think the timing magically changed? You DID use a new cam drive set, right?

Have you examined the cap and rotor for moisture, crap, dirt, debri? Damage? Tested the coil / plug wires? Something as simple as a bad coil wire can really really ruin your day.

In the last two years I've "test fired" three junk engines, two of which didn't even have a carb, using my engine hoist and my "emergency" ignition. From start to finish, it didn't take me more than 15 min -- 1/2 hour to get bangs and pops out of an engine. One didn't even have exhaust manifolds!!!

34nf6l0.jpg


Inside here is an HEI module, hooked to a coil. Hook up ground, power, and the dist. connector, and the coil wire and it runs!!!

hwlcfa.jpg
 
mopar4x4stroker said:
Tdc lines up with 0 on the damper when I first played with the timing. I put it at tdc and pulled the dizz to have a look at the cam gear and when I put it back in the rotor was pointing at the #1 tower on the cap. I then kept advancing it till it started. I havnt checked it since though. However it shouldn't have changed, unless, do I dare say... It jumped a link or two. I doubt it though, its a double roller.

Sucks, Im workin night shift 6 days a week and my shop (her home) is 20min away so its hard to find the time.
Click to expand...

misunderstood you problem...did not know it had been running.....

check out what 273dart said
 
Good points, all around. My suggestion to bump with relay was only to check for compression stroke against dist. position, since it doesn't activate the coil.

It's super easy to check dist. against cam. Technically, you can put the dist., wherever you like and as long as you've got the wires routed for it, it can run, but no matter where the gear or distributor is, it has to be approaching true TDC, on compression cycle.
 
67Dart273 said:
What you claim cannot happen. If you really do have

compression

spark (at the right time)

fuel (GOOD fuel)

It will RUN.

Numba Won (1)---pull the plugs and inspect them for fuel / oil fouling.

Teu (2) Stop screwing and guessing with timing. Set it ONCE and KNOW it will run and forget about it.
Click to expand...

I agree. If it has run great before and not now....I'd say mayyybe you've got electrical~ignition (power IN) problems. Try some starting fluid too. That can help weed out bad fuel or flooded plug issues sometimes. Wet plugs can drive you outta your mind sometimes.
 
67Dart273 said:
What you claim cannot happen. If you really do have

compression

spark (at the right time)

fuel (GOOD fuel)

It will RUN.

Numba Won (1)---pull the plugs and inspect them for fuel / oil fouling.

Teu (2) Stop screwing and guessing with timing. Set it ONCE and KNOW it will run and forget about it.

So Stick your finger in the no1 plug hole, and crank "bump" until you feel compression. Then pay attention to the timing marks and wrench the engine until the marks WHICH SHOULD BE ON THEIR WAY "UP" -- NOT NOT NOT to TDC but rather to where you want the intitial timing, IE about 15 BTC.

Set the distributor so that whatever plug tower has no1 wire in it is just being approached corner to corner by the rotor, and so that the reluctor is aligned with the center of the pickup coil.

Tha -REE (3) Now, since you have starting problems, METHODICALLY troubleshoot for spark. It is IMPORTANT to understand that testing for spark by cranking the engine by jumpering the starter relay IS NOT the same as using the KEY. This is because the coil resistor bypass circuit, (ign 2 mentioned above) is not active if you jumper the start relay. HOWEVER this can BE a useful exercise if you suspect that IGN2 has a PROBLEM.

MAKE CERTAIN the IGN system has POWER. Then use a grounded probe such as a clip lead and a screwdriver, held near the top of the COIL TOWER to check for spark. If you get a nice hot spark there, install the coil wire, and move your clip/ probe to a plug tower in the cap. Make sure to crank long enough that the rotor comes clear 'round' as the dist. only rotates ONCE for every TWO crank revolutions.

Go to the MSD page and download the destructions for the 6A. There is troubleshooting destructions in the install sheet.

If you did NOT get spark at the coil tower, find out WHY. DO you have power to the ignition?

The MSD should have a large red and black which go to battery and ground. The "small red" must have 12V to "energize" the box, and this is normally hooked to IGN1 / IGN2 when jumpered together. This is the old dark blue "ignition run" and the brown "bypass" circuit.

MAKE SURE the white wire is taped off safely and IS NOT grounded.

Fow-or (4)- If you DO have a nice hot spark, now get out your timing light, install all (good dry) plugs, hook up all the ignition, and use your timing light WITH THE STARTER to check initial timing. You want about 15 degrees or so at this point. If you get a nice rythmic spark at the light and the timing is OK, snug down the dist and DO NOT screw with it for now.

Fi -yive (5) Assuming you correctly installed the cam, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL that it is going to move a tooth ON A NEW chain and or sprocket set.

seee--ix (6) Fuel. Has the car been sitting? How long? Are you sure "a friend" didn't help out with fuel contamination? Are you SURE?

If all the above is OK, you should be able to toss a little fuel down the carb, hit the starter and it WILL bang to life.

Other random comments:

I have no idea what you did, your skill, etc. How well did it run when it did run? What makes you think the timing magically changed? You DID use a new cam drive set, right?

Have you examined the cap and rotor for moisture, crap, dirt, debri? Damage? Tested the coil / plug wires? Something as simple as a bad coil wire can really really ruin your day.

In the last two years I've "test fired" three junk engines, two of which didn't even have a carb, using my engine hoist and my "emergency" ignition. From start to finish, it didn't take me more than 15 min -- 1/2 hour to get bangs and pops out of an engine. One didn't even have exhaust manifolds!!!

34nf6l0.jpg


Inside here is an HEI module, hooked to a coil. Hook up ground, power, and the dist. connector, and the coil wire and it runs!!!

hwlcfa.jpg
Click to expand...

Cam was installed straight up, with brand new double roller gear set, plugs are dry and clean. Like I said b4, the only reason I messed with the timing the first go around was because a was out of Ideas. I didn't have means of accurately turning the motor (via 3/4" ratchet and socket) so I just keeped adv it lil by lil until I got a reaction. Judging by how far I had to turn it, Id say it was retarded by a good bit. Also the msd bypasses the ballast, so I have 12v in start/run. I had someone cranking this time, otherwise I use a remote start switch that I hook to the starter. I see no point in checking spark at the coil, or cap when I have good strong spark at all eight wires (which are brand new accel 8.8's). Its mystifing no doubt.
 
mopar4x4stroker said:
Cam was installed straight up, with brand new double roller gear set, plugs are dry and clean. Like I said b4, the only reason I messed with the timing the first go around was because a was out of Ideas. I didn't have means of accurately turning the motor (via 3/4" ratchet and socket) so I just keeped adv it lil by lil until I got a reaction. Judging by how far I had to turn it, Id say it was retarded by a good bit. Also the msd bypasses the ballast, so I have 12v in start/run. I had someone cranking this time, otherwise I use a remote start switch that I hook to the starter. I see no point in checking spark at the coil, or cap when I have good strong spark at all eight wires (which are brand new accel 8.8's). Its mystifing no doubt.
Click to expand...


Is all this "fact" or is some of it "assumption?"

mopar4x4stroker said:
plugs are dry and clean..
Click to expand...

SHOULD they be? Are you sure you are getting fuel? How certain are you that the fuel is fresh?


mopar4x4stroker said:
I didn't have means of accurately turning the motor (via 3/4" ratchet and socket) so I just keeped adv it lil by lil until I got a reaction. Judging by how far I had to turn it, Id say it was retarded by a good bit. .
Click to expand...

You should be able to bump it on the starter get it to "somewhere" around 15-20 BTC and then set the dist and forget it until you get a light on it


mopar4x4stroker said:
I see no point in checking spark at the coil, or cap when I have good strong spark at all eight wires (which are brand new accel 8.8's). Its mystifing no doubt.
Click to expand...

Somehow it was not clear to me that you had done that.


This is not rocket science, and it's not magic. Give these engines "the three things" and they will RUN.
 
Try a new coil.

This sounds almost exactly what happened to my ramcharger while on a camping trip a few weeks ago. Started it up in the morning, drove off, not a mile later it dies. Wouldn't start up. Sat for a while, starts up, runs like crap, suspect the jetting from when we leaned it out at the trailhead before climbing a couple thousand feet. Screw with the jetting for hours while it runs, drive off, dies, runs, dies. Messed with timing, fuel, threw on a new ecu, nothing. Finally smoked the coil so much I could hear it sizzling oil out of the posts. Limped into town, pouring water on the coil every mile or so to cool it down. Heat only increases the resistance inside the coil, making spark weaker. This would explain why your truck runs, dies, runs, dies. When you have that key to "on" that coil is getting 12 volts all day, only getting hotter til it can discharge that spark.

You can visually have spark when you test it but when you try and make it jump a gap with 170 psi of compression it takes a strong, healthy spark.

Roughly get the timing close like the boys here said and try a new coil. It's the only thing you haven't tried. Is it a 12 volt coil??

And 67Dart - I love that emergency HEI - Coulda used that a few weeks ago!! Always bringing a spare coil with me. Actually I'm going to build that little kit you have. Thanks for the idea
 
=67Dart273;1970108624]Is all this "fact" or is some of it "assumption?"
Click to expand...

I built the motor...

SHOULD they be? Are you sure you are getting fuel? How certain are you that the fuel is fresh?
Click to expand...

I mean they're not wet/fuel/oil fouled. The accelerator discharge nozzles are giving fuel. I already ruled out fuel, like I said, it didn't even flinch at carb cleaner (chlorinated).



You should be able to bump it on the starter get it to "somewhere" around 15-20 BTC and then set the dist and forget it until you get a light on it
Click to expand...
Not very easy by yourself w/o a remote switch


This is not rocket science, and it's not magic. Give these engines "the three things" and they will RUN.
Click to expand...

I built a new generation motor that requires 4 elements :)
 
Sounds like a problem with the fuel supply to the carburetor.

If there is a lack of fuel supply it will take a lot of cranking before it will run, it will eventually fill the bowls. fire up and run...then run dry and stop.

Replace fuel filter with a new see-through one, Rig up a fuel line from the inlet of the fuel pump to a jerry can filled with fresh juice.

If nothing else it will eliminate one more potential cause.
 
T56MaxTorq said:
Try a new coil.

This sounds almost exactly what happened to my ramcharger while on a camping trip a few weeks ago. Started it up in the morning, drove off, not a mile later it dies. Wouldn't start up. Sat for a while, starts up, runs like crap, suspect the jetting from when we leaned it out at the trailhead before climbing a couple thousand feet. Screw with the jetting for hours while it runs, drive off, dies, runs, dies. Messed with timing, fuel, threw on a new ecu, nothing. Finally smoked the coil so much I could hear it sizzling oil out of the posts. Limped into town, pouring water on the coil every mile or so to cool it down. Heat only increases the resistance inside the coil, making spark weaker. This would explain why it runs, dies, runs, dies. When you have that key to "on" that coil is getting 12 volts all day, only getting hotter til it can discharge that spark.

You can visually have spark when you test it but when you try and make it jump a gap with 170 psi of compression it takes a strong, healthy spark.

Roughly get the timing close like the boys here said and try a new coil. It's the only thing you haven't tried. Is it a 12 volt coil??

And 67Dart - I love that emergency HEI - Coulda used that a few weeks ago!! Always bringing a spare coil with me. Actually I'm going to build that little kit you have. Thanks for the idea
Click to expand...

Yeah I was thinking that, even though I have good spark. I read that stock (oil filled) capacitors can't be used reliably with msd ignition since msd bypasses the ballast and they can't handle constant 12v. Im using a accel super stock, but I talked to msd b4 I put in the ignition and asked if the coil would be ok and they said it would. Maybe I should get the blaster and see how It likes that.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Sounds like a problem with the fuel supply to the carburetor.

Replace fuel filter with a new see-through one, Rig up a fuel line from the inlet of the fuel pump to a jerry can filled with fresh juice.

If nothing else it will eliminate one more potential cause.
Click to expand...

Im getting fuel, I even gave it a good spray of carb cleaner.
 
If it were coil heat wouldn't it start up and run fine from cold?

Somehow it started, ran...then wouldn't start again.

It's gotta be fuel.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Depending on your exhaust system sometimes you can bridge the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver while advancing the dizzy, when it loads up retard it back a little.
Click to expand...

Fuel is fresh and clean, filter has maybe 500-600 miles. If it isn't going to react to carb cleaner (very volatile), I don't see it being fuel issue. I've seen motors run on stink gas (not very good mind you) my gas doesn't stink. Its maybe a month old.

I have a remote start switch (said that already) just didn't have it with me on the side of the road. I had my dizzy wrench though (still tuning). This time I advanced the distributor to the point that it kicked back on the starter, backed it off and it didn't start. Quick easy way to rule out timing.
 
Don't be trynnna start engines with CARB CLEANER

All you need for a "remote starter" is a screwdriver, pliers, or a quarter in your pocket.

Take a REALLY good look at spark quality, which is (back to) WHY I always FIRST check spark AT THE COIL.
 
You said you have an accel coil, while they are a 12v coil, they are not of spectacular quality. It doesn't help that mopar mounted the coil on top of a hot intake either. The coil I popped on the trail was a msd blaster 2 coil. I have 9.5:1 compression as well. Never thought it was the coil since it would run..sometimes.

Something is at fault here and a part needs to be changed. Compression, spark, and fuel fires these things up no problem. Heck, you can even have the distributor 180 degrees out and it will pop and cough. I'd find it quick before you strain those cam lobes. I was sure happy I had a roller cam when I was cranking and cranking my new motor in the woods to get home.

Unfortunately you've made the mistake I did and messed with fuel and timing and those parameters are likely out of whack. Try your hardest to go back to a baseline setting and simplify your ignition system to completely rule out ignition. When I get my timing set the way I want it, I always scribe a mark on the dist. base so I can always go back to that setting just in case my clamp comes loose or I dick with it when I'm mad.

Buy a new coil and ecu and slave it in, if it's not the problem afterall, clean all the marks off and return it to the store for a refund. Check all grounds and battery terminals, and put that battery on a charger. The amps it takes to turn over a stroker doesn't leave much for the ignition system.
 
I always start with the basics. My son has a 5.9 (Magnum) Dakota R/T and a few years ago it wouldn't start during the winter.
First day, I go over there, check a few things and couldn't get it to fire. (unheated apartment garage below 20* F)
Second day, I stopped at a parts store on the way over and got a new set of Champion plugs per the book.
Pulled the Autolites out that were in there and compared side-to-side to the new Champions the reach on the Autolites was much shorter.
Put the new plugs in and...instant start. The Autolites were recommended on the Dakota R/T club site and that's what he had bought a few months earlier but the electrode was short of the combustion chamber.
 
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