Frame or chassis options for A bodies

-

1cerberus4u

Active Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Good morning;

does anyone know of aftermarket chassis available for A-bodies? Something for a hot street car/autocross/track day application?

I've looked online, but can't seem to see anyone like Art Morrison etc make one

Thanks
 
Good morning;

does anyone know of aftermarket chassis available for A-bodies? Something for a hot street car/autocross/track day application?

I've looked online, but can't seem to see anyone like Art Morrison etc make one

Thanks

Art Morrison does custom builds, I am sure they could build a full chassis to fit an A-Body.
Also Roadster shop does custom Chassis ,full frame stuff that is real nice. They make them for 66 nova's , which would be close to an A-body in size:

http://roadstershop.com/product/chassis-and-suspension/

Most people don't want to get into that much fab work, usually removing the complete firewall and floor to install.
That is why you see bolt in suspension kits for the mopars , like the RMS or Magnum force transformer . They are a bolt in modern suspenions that provide handling without all the fab work
 
Why not go with a solution like a Hotchkis TVS or some similar parts.

Really no reason to go cutting the whole car up. I don't even have all the hotchkis parts and the car handles extremely well. I also have 275-35-18s on all 4's.
 
Dude, you do realize that you can rip **** up without spending all that right?

Look around this forum... Talk to 72BlunBlu, he'll set you straight.
 
Hey Everyone, thanks so much for the replies and understanding of the question as I have been away from my cars for some time.

Did not know that these options were available, so its exciting to see.

I have several A-body cuda's and am interested in converting one to a fun street/track day car and honestly I thought that in order to get the rigidity, I would need to fully replace the frame.

Can anyone give some feedback on any of these options as to quality, cost to product considerations, ending benefit? Why one over the other?

Best

Andy
 
Andy,
The biggest advantage to the aftermarket front suspension in the A-body is the room and They are designed to work with a rack and pinion steering gear, which is going to give you a modern feel to your car.

The Hotchkis and QA1 still use the recirculating gearbox , in the end for me personally , I don't like the feel of a gearbox. I have built cars with the upgraded gearboxes on them , although they feel way better than stock , still feels like an old car to me.

The aftermarket will give you way more room without the torsion bars and steering rack up front and low. If you are going with a non stock transmission , the mopars have tiny transmission tunnels and will need raised to keep the driveline angles good. Without the torsion bars the rear cross member is easier to modify.

If you are going with a stock engine and transmission and don't mind the way a gearbox feels , you may want to just modify the stock suspension.
 
For a stock style suspension the most often recommended chassis stiffening is sub frame connectors, inner fender braces, lower radiator support brace and a stiffened K frame.
You can pick up these pieces from
hotchkis http://www.hotchkis.net/search-by-vehicle-results/?mk=40&yr=1967&md=300&sm=39&category1&show=all#10

us car tool http://store.uscartool.com/Mopar-A-body_c_38.html

firm feel http://firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_parts.html

or talk to peter (GMachineDartGT) at bergman auto craft he'll get you set up http://bergmanautocraft.com/
 
The money they want for those chassis kits , I would buy a old Nascar or ARCA rolling car and put barracuda sheet metal on it.
 
I would have to agree, you don't need a full frame to have a beast of a road handling mopar. In fact, there are a couple of mopars, at least one that's a member here, that have put up faster times than cars with full replacement chassis' with torsion bars and leaf springs (Tomswheels!!!:thumbup:). Not to mention that even if you got a full chassis for an A-body it would cost you more than $15k all said and done (for $10k the Schwartz chassis doesn't come with coilovers, brakes, etc.). The only advantage I really see to the full chassis vs the coilover conversions or a modified torsion bar system is that it would probably require less fabrication work on your end, because you're basically getting all the chassis stiffening in one shot. The trade off though is a REALLY big check up front. So if time and welding is a factor, the full chassis might be easier/faster from a schedule point of view. I'm not gonna lie, there's a lot of work to do in order to accomplish all of the chassis work I'm about to suggest.

The biggest performance advantage is the steering, but that's pretty much just a driver preference/comfort thing. Next is the header space from the lack of torsion bars. But there are plenty of header options for small block and big block engines, biggest advantage there would be for late model hemi swaps etc. And the coilovers are still more tunable, more options out there than for torsion bar set ups, but the market has improved substantially in the last couple of years even.

If you have the money to even consider a full chassis like that, you can go hog wild. A full HemiDenny or RMS swap to a coilover front and 4-link rear would be well within your budget, assuming that you just HAD to have a rack and pinion. If you don't, you can REALLY go hog wild if you're keeping the torsion bars. The folks that disagree with me can disagree, but with a properly tuned torsion bar suspension you can be just as fast as a car with a coilover conversion. They're just springs, and it's just physics. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, it comes down to driver preference(and ability) and tuning. I will concede that tuning is easier with coilovers, but the proper tune is not out of reach with torsion bars.

Regardless, the chassis could use:

Subframe connectors
Torque boxes
Firewall to shock tower braces (or firewall to shock tower to frame braces)
Radiator support
Fully seam weld and gusset K member (for stock K with torsion bars, or QA1 K member, or the hemidenny, RMS, etc coilover conversion K's)
(Cage? If it's really a race car, you get some kind of cage and the full chassis is moot)

There are both tubular and sheet metal versions of most of those chassis improvements, depending on where you go. The links to US Cartool, Firm Feel, Hotchkis are already posted. Magnumforce makes some really nice firewall to shock tower to frame braces, although I would stay away from most of their suspension conversion parts.

After that, if you kept the torsion bar style suspension:

SPC double adjustable UCA's (Bergman Autocraft)
Borgeson Power steering box (Bergman Autocraft)

1.06" or larger torsion bars (Firm Feel, 1.12" is what I run)
adjustable strut rods (Bergman, Firm Feel, PST, etc)
Front and rear sway bars (Hotchkis or Hellwig)
solid tie rod adjusters or heim conversion (FFI, PST, Hotchkis for heim conversion)
Boxed LCA's, delrin LCA bushings (Bergman, or tubular LCA's from QA1)

Hotchkis adjustable shocks (or Bilstein RCDs, or custom etc)

Large diameter disks, front and rear. I prefer Dr. Diff, but with the budget for one of those full chassis you could do anything, wilwood, baer, etc.

3 or 4 link rear suspension. Again I'm guessing with that budget this won't be an issue. Or improved leafs, Bergman has a great set he sells, or you can go cheaper and use the Mopar oval track springs like I do. They're fairly well matched to the rest of my set up, but they're still just leafs. With leafs you want to be in the 120-130 lb/in range with a reinforced front section.

I think you said earlier you had a Barracuda? If so, you can probably get to 275mm rubber on all 4 corners with the modifications I already posted and a set of 1/2" offset spring hangers, if you didn't go 3 or 4 link, which would solve that problem anyway. 18x9's or 18x10's for rims, you should be able to run them like that on all 4 corners.

Maybe Tomswheels can chime in on his set up, as he's been to a few CAM events now, and put the hurt on some $150k cars even with his previous car which had minimal improvements. My build thread is in my signature and I've done a lot of what I posted above, although my budget means I've done a few things differently. And it's my daily, so I've spent some time on things that don't necessarily make the car faster (Demon conversion, rallye gauges, fold down seat, etc)

Bottom line is you don't NEED to buy a full aftermarket chassis to handle well and go fast. If you want to, that's up to you and your budget. :D That's just my .02. I like the torsion bars, and I'm too cheap/poor to spring for a full chassis. ;)

IMG_2478a_zpsvmagxna0.jpg
 
We have a Dodge Challenger in the shop we are doing and when I was looking at suspensions ,I found you really aren't talking that much more to go with the aftermarket full kit.

If you go with a Hotchkis full kit and add their good shocks and torsion bars , and then buy a good steering gearbox,etc it adds up quick . So we decided it was worth a few more bucks to go with a coil over setup with rack and pinion.

We went with the Magnum force Transformer in the front and with the RMS street lynx in the back and We get nothing but compliments from people that see it.Both of those are available for A-bodies that bolt on for the most part (some welding for the street lynx) and even allows TTI full exhaust .

You just have to price stuff out and decide what you like.



View attachment IMG_0624.jpg

View attachment IMG_0675.jpg

View attachment IMG_0677.jpg

View attachment 1714871259
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0682.jpg
    30.9 KB · Views: 961
^ Do you really need all that kit?

No one really NEEDS it.

But he's not wrong. If you just outright buy the Hotchkis TVS kit and then add what's missing you're not too far from a coilover conversion. At least for the front suspension. Now, you don't need everything in the TVS and there are places where you can save money to make the difference more dramatic, but either way you don't end up with a rack and pinion. I had my entire set up all laid out and priced and came out cheaper to do my entire car than it was to just get a RMS Altercation in the front. But I did all of my own work, mixed and matched some parts, and bought a few pieces second hand that were "new in the box" for half the cost of new (my Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box, for example).

And of course you don't really need a rack and pinion, it won't make you any faster. Feels nicer though. But if that's what you like, then the full coilover conversion is really the only way to get it. Otherwise your stuck with the older style steering box.

Same idea with doing the coilover conversion in the front and a 4 link rear vs doing the full aftermarket chassis. If your paying someone to do the frame connectors, torque boxes, install the 4 link etc, then you'll rapidly approach the cost of the full chassis kit. But do the welding yourself and you'll save thousands. But if the plan is to send the car to a shop, cutting the big $15k+ check for everything might not be the worst way to go. It'll still cost more money, but the shop won't have the car nearly as long and you know everything will work together.

But you don't need it. lilcuda's '68 Valiant has lapped portland international raceway as fast a C06, hitting 160mph down the straight, it's a torsion bar and leafs car. Tomswheels ran the Goodguys autox faster than some $150k Camaro with his '69 cuda convertible, and he was still running $14 Gabriel shocks. I'm guessing the $150k Camaro was a bit easier to drive though. And his Valiant is faster than that and still a torsion bar and leafs car, it won SCCA CAM events, finished 2nd to M. Pozzi at San Diego, 5th in the CAM nationals west, etc.

Heck I heard Tom was selling his car, you could buy his for less than it would cost to go to a full chassis. Or to even build his car...

 
My point being you can do more with less, unless your doing it for bragging rights. At that point whatever you want to toss your money into a burn pile for.

It's been proven time and time again these cars handle very will with thoughtful budget part selection; not outright replacement with fancy parts from NASA.

But the topic keeps popping up like nobody even thought of it.. Too much CarCraft Magazine telling you the only way is 20 grand in suspension parts to have a little fun around a corner. :roll:
 
Wow, Great info everyone!

So, let me provide a bit more of what I am looking at.

I have a 67 Cuda coupe (I also have a 67 cuda fast back big block and a 67 formula S 383 in parts that I am going to sell to fund this car - hint hint)

I plan on a built small block that I am hoping to see a reliable 400-450hp on pump gas. 5 speed tranny, and I'd think a 3 link rear (may have access to a bunch of nascar parts, to include brakes - there are some great Trans-am II packages out there - so I can run smaller wheels)

Its not my intent to create a $150K looking car craft cover car, but a sleeper that can surprise people that unless they can look under the hood and car, couldn't tell the car is modified. Just a nice reasonably presented car with wider wheels (plan on mini tubs) and disk brakes (unless I hide all that behind some steelies for a true sleeper)

On suspension, in full disclosure, I am 3x defending North Atlantic Road Race Champ, so crafting a well handling chassis that I can manage is important.

Being I have owned Tbar cars and while I fully agree with 72 bluNblu that they do work, honestly in my opinion that are not as fast as a good coil over kit. One only needs to look at vintage porsche's to see that if one wants to go fast, they all convert to coil overs.

I have a pretty complete garage (including lift, Miller 252 etc) so I can do most everything myself, including welding.

I did not know that aftermarket front ends focused on handling were actually available, so, being that I am a traditional New Hampshire Yankee (read cheap as F$&K), I am looking to do all I can do afford ably.

I have several disk brake kits (porsche, wilwood, stop tech) and shocks/spring JRZ, Bilstein, Ohlins) lying around so I more need the structure, than the accessories.

So, based on affordability and quality of construction and performance, which front end do you all think is the right one available today?

I want the ability to adjust camber, caster. toe and an aftermarket control arm kit will allow heim joints vs rubber/nylon bushings for strength/ adjustability. Also, for a rack and pinion and room for headers etc is important but they all seem to do that.

For example Magnum force has both a boxed and tubed front end kit - not sure why and if one is better than the other, or US Cartool, Firm Feel, Hotchkis?

so if this was your build, what front end would you buy and why?

Thanks!

Andy
 
Godduster318, thanks for the bump on the Hotckis link, but it does not have upper and lower adjustable control arms, nor the k member for steering/header room.
 
I would contact the suspension places and tell them what your goals are for the car.

I know when I talked to the guys at Magnum force , they have guys using the transformer for autocross builds.

Guys are also using Reilly Motorsports stuff as well to race.

If your not so worried about a bolt in deal, you could contact Art Morrison to see it they offer anything that would work in your cuda. I know they offer 3 link rear clips.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XlIz9fMZi8"]Part 1 Magnum Force Transformer Suspension Installation by Stacey David on Gearz TV - YouTube[/ame]
 
Another advantage of loosing the torsion bars is if your putting a 5 speed in it , you can loose the factory rear torsion bar crossmember and fab a custom cross member and that will give you lots of room to set your driveline angle correctly.
Here is a pic of one Reilly motorsports did after they tied the frame together:
 

Attachments

  • challyT56another.jpg
    36.5 KB · Views: 841
Good morning;

does anyone know of aftermarket chassis available for A-bodies? Something for a hot street car/autocross/track day application?

I've looked online, but can't seem to see anyone like Art Morrison etc make one

Thanks

You DO realize that these are unibody cars and do not have a separate frame? They are not like a Chevelle...

You can do component upgrades and reinforcements, but there is no separate body and chassis...
 
Honestly, I wouldn't get anything from magnumforce ever after seeing one of their other previous tubular k-frames that had an unsupported rear lower control arm mount actually broke on I believe more than one car while they were backing up,

The next question you need to ask is if they actually strength test any of this stuff before they send it out. It's a friggin k-frame and lower control arms. If it busts, you're in a world of hurt. I've never even seen it mentioned so who knows.

Then you need to ask if they tune the suspensions with their aftermarket k-frame at all using any scientific equipment. Chances are that answer is no.

Do they actually race their own cars in autocross or anything like that? I doubt it.

I think the magnumforce system is for show poodles and drag cars at best.

Since you are planning a small block - they make headers that fit well in the car, so that's no issue whatsoever.

Between Hotchkis and Bergman Auto Craft, you can buy pretty much everything to make your car handle on rails AND have good steering feel. The Borgeson steering box is a great piece, the car feels very tight now.

Hotchkis actually strength tests everything and does research on shakers, autocrosses their own cars, etc to tune it to the best it can be. Bergman Auto Craft also does a lot of testing on his own car and can do a great job recommending parts for you as well. He is a member here, GMachineDartGT.

I am not sure why you think you need adjustable lower control arms. The uppers are.

A good place to start is really the Hotchkis TVS, some 1.06 Firm Feel Torsion bars, the Fox/Hotchkis adjustable shocks, and the borgeson steering box.

I can adjust caster/camber/toe no problem on mine, everything is rod end except the LCA bushing and I am still running stock inner/outer tie rods, which are fine. I have +7 caster, -1 camber, and 1/16" per side toe and lots of room for more.

Additionally, I think these coil over kits may restrict the amount of rubber you can fit under the front of the car. 72blunblu and I both have 275-35-18's. And so did Tomswheels.

You also need to know that Tomswheels' car had about 250hp and an A-833 OD that doesn't have great gear splits and ran with Mary Pozzi's camaro as was mentioned which is like a 500hp, easily 75k car.
 
Lots of good advice here but many don't know I can supply all parts needed as well. Updates to my site are slow since we are primarily a shop and thankfully are very busy. That being said, the original style suspensions still work well and ride good when the correct parts are chosen. Many assume because it's old that it's bad. That isn't always true. In stock form they're not so great, but modified they are impressive. To be honest, when it comes to outright performance on a track, I don't see any of the aftermarket style suspensions on the market as having any type of advantage over properly prepped oe parts. Granted, it's easier to buy a system all new and put it on. They look cool and offer lots of additional room. It all depends on what you are after. On the other end of the spectrum, a custom chassis from one of the big guys like Roadster Shop can offer gains and excellent ride. I seriously doubt your buying a 25K custom chassis for your A body...
 
-
Back
Top