Tubing the gallery with a twist

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Ironmike

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SO, after mocking up cam and lifters, it looks like I might have a "bleeder". The problem is NOT the top of the lifter bore. The problem is the oil hole in the bore itself. It's circled in pic 1.
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what happens is, at full lift the back skirted area of the lifter shown in pic 2 is exposed to the big hole and oil bleeds, sometimes squirts out the bottom of the bore. These are the much heralded MRL lifters. Outstanding product I have used several times. Most times they eliminate the problem, but not with this block.
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I COULD have Bullet lower the base circle but with high spring pressures they don't think it's a good idea. I could also use Mikes lifters with a .750 roller instead of the .810. Not doing that either.
Soooo I am going to tube both sides and somehow make sure that all the oiling stays as is. I still need oil to the rollers. THEN I will drill a small maybe 3/16 hole in every bore.....at a much better height.
Not sure if I will drill before I knock the tubes in and peen, or maybe when all done just use a small round carbide burr and then grind out a small hole.

I've never done this so any help, suggestions, etc is going to come HIGHLY appreciated.

Fingers crossed......
 
Would bushing (and correcting) the lifter bores be cost prohibitive?
I did the tube kit once many years ago and swore I'd never do it again.
 
Bushing the lifter bores with properly located oil holes would be the better way to go IMO.
 
I have drilled both bushed lifter bores and tubed lifter bores. I try to tube everything that has over .500 lift any more, even hydraulic ****. And this is why. You can't control where that oil gallery is.

You don't need to bush the bores.

Tube it like you are saying, peen the tube and then make sure the lifters don't bind in the bore THEN drill a 3/32 hole in the tube. Then deburr the hole.

3/32 is more than enough oil to lube the roller.

I hope more people see this thread and pay close attention. No Chrysler should EVER run less than an .810 wheel lifter and every freaking block should at least be tubed. It ain't that hard.on this.


BTW damn good catch on this. I doubt 1 in 150 guys check this. It is a big deal.
 
Of course bushing the bores would be the way to go. 1000 bucks in machining, now throw in another 700 to bush the bores and you've got damn near 2 grand in a factory block. A block that's going to be somewhere around the magical 600HP zone. Might be short lived, who knows.

I tried to do this last winter and came up 38 horsepower short. Still have that motor in car and it runs great. Heads kept me from reaching the goal and they won't this year. BUT I need good oiling for sure. Pressure might show up ok, but don't want bearings slowly starving due to a bleeding issue.

Loco, why did you ban this process after doing it?
 
I have drilled both bushed lifter bores and tubed lifter bores. I try to tube everything that has over .500 lift any more, even hydraulic ****. And this is why. You can't control where that oil gallery is.

You don't need to bush the bores.

Tube it like you are saying, peen the tube and then make sure the lifters don't bind in the bore THEN drill a 3/32 hole in the tube. Then deburr the hole.

3/32 is more than enough oil to lube the roller.

I hope more people see this thread and pay close attention. No Chrysler should EVER run less than an .810 wheel lifter and every freaking block should at least be tubed. It ain't that hard.on this.


BTW damn good catch on this. I doubt 1 in 150 guys check this. It is a big deal.
Well thank ya, YR. I try to kinda look at everything. 100 percent agree on the roller size.
My question to you is how can I drill a hole in there once the tube is in and peened? Been racking my brain on that and could only come up with a small carbide ball on a die grinder....

Also I ordered the kit from Mancini (ugh) but don't think a drill bit comes with it. I have a 5/8 aircraft bit that's 12 inches long. I heard rumors that 5/8 is the right size but don't know for sure. Mancini guy said there's no instructions whatsoever with the kit so I'm flying blind. Hope you can get me through it!
 
Ironmike,
I never ran anything very radical. At the time (early '80's?) I had a W-2 small block with a solid flat tappet cam in the .575" range. I believe I had an original kit from either Mopar or Hamburger. But it just turned out to be a lot more work than expected. Maybe I was doing something wrong, especially trying to get it properly peened, but it wasn't worth the trouble and not a necessity. I may still have a long drill and/or the peening tool.

Like the bushings, it would be possible to measure and drill the tube before installation. But everything needs to be "just right".
 
Bushing the lifter bores with properly located oil holes would be the better way to go IMO.

x3.

I always love to hear how expensive it is to bush the bores. When properly designed in at the beginning of a project, the cost is less than $550 more. If it's more than that I'd be curious how the shop in question is doing it or more to the point getting it done. On a solid roller cam stroker build, that's roughly less than 6% of the total cost. You'll gladly spend hundreds more for the fanciest lifters that you wouldn't need if you do it.
It also is common to assume the only benefit from bushing is oil control. That's overlooking a bit. For instance - given the (cough..cough...) high accuracy of the factory machined deck, and bores, and cam bearing bores, how accurate do you think the lifter bores are? On this particular block, given the oil hole exposure from the factory drilling of the pasage, I'd say the lifter bores are probably a bit off. That adds bad mojo to the valvetrain costing smoothness, rpm, lifespan, and power.
 
Mike - those are just my thoughts outloud. You need to do what's right for you. I would look into the smaller roller myself.
 
x3.

I always love to hear how expensive it is to bush the bores. When properly designed in at the beginning of a project, the cost is less than $550 more. If it's more than that I'd be curious how the shop in question is doing it or more to the point getting it done. On a solid roller cam stroker build, that's roughly less than 6% of the total cost. You'll gladly spend hundreds more for the fanciest lifters that you wouldn't need if you do it.
It also is common to assume the only benefit from bushing is oil control. That's overlooking a bit. For instance - given the (cough..cough...) high accuracy of the factory machined deck, and bores, and cam bearing bores, how accurate do you think the lifter bores are? On this particular block, given the oil hole exposure from the factory drilling of the pasage, I'd say the lifter bores are probably a bit off. That adds bad mojo to the valvetrain costing smoothness, rpm, lifespan, and power.

Bushing the lifter bores PROPERLY is expensive. I machine the bushings in house out of silicon bronze (mega bucks for the bar of stock) and charge $50.00/ bushing to begin with. Then I set up the block on the Mazak AJV CNC mill in the fixture and probe the lifter bores. Then when everything is located correctly I machine the first hole--pause the cycle with an M stop , drive the bushing in and finish ream the bushing, then repeat process. Its not a really fancy 4 axis deal so I have to flip the block on the fixture and start all over on the other bank. I charge by the hour and this takes me approx. 6 hours. Is it worth it? Like anything in this trade--depends. J.Rob
 
One thing to remember is that when bushing the lifter bores as opposed to tubing them, it gains the extra advantage of "correcting" the factory angles/tolerances.
 
That was my point Loco.
RAMM - if you don't mind me asking - why make your own bushings?
 
I know, I know....should have just had them bushed from the start. But I didnt. Dammit. Honeshyly at the time, I was so worried about getting the decks perfect and the cam tunnel and the line hone.......I kinda didn't think about it at the time. Like I said it's the 4 th LA I've converted to roller, so I assumed I could get it done other ways.

So now it's impeccably clean, painted and clear coated and here I sit. He told me 5 to 6 hours now. Had I done it originally, probably "another 350 to 400 bucks.

Maybe I'll give him a call Monday to discuss it more, maybe not. If I could tube them the way I want, I'd be happy. Now you guys got me a little gun shy. But that's OK. That's why I ALWAYS ask here first.

Years and years of Chevy then 2008 I started the Mopar addiction. There's a whole lot more to deal with but it's worth it. I'll never go back! I just keep learning here...
Now I'm kinda stuck between gears.
20170114_200951.jpg
 
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Just out of curiousity - why are you against the smaller lifter roller? Seems an easy, elegant way of addressing the issue, and potentially a lighter lifter to boot.
 
I know, I know....should have just had them bushed from the start. But I didnt. Dammit. Honeshyly at the time, I was so worried about getting the decks perfect and the cam tunnel and the line hone.......I kinda didn't think about it at the time. Like I said it's the 4 th LA I've converted to roller, so I assumed I could get it done other ways.

So now it's impeccably clean, painted and clear coated and here I sit. He told me 5 to 6 hours now. Had I done it originally, probably "another 350 to 400 bucks.

Maybe I'll give him a call Monday to discuss it more, maybe not. If I could tube them the way I want, I'd be happy. Now you guys got me a little gun shy. But that's OK. That's why I ALWAYS ask here first.

Years and years of Chevy then 2008 I started the Mopar addiction. There's a whole lot more to deal with but it's worth it. I'll never go back! I just keep learning here...
Now I'm kinda stuck between gears.View attachment 1715007950



Hey, you can buy the tubing and the reamer from MSC for pretty cheap. If you aren't ham fisted, take your time and don't crowd the reamer, you can do it by hand. I have. Also done it with a drill press. You need very little press fit, if any because the preening holds the tube in. It's not hard. Guys don't do it because they hear horror stories from guys who did it once or whatever. If you were closer, I'd do the damn thing for free.


As for drilling the hole....there are a few easy ways. I just take a fine pointed scribe that is fairly stout and just put a prick mark where you want the hole. Then drill it with a 1/16 bit. Again, you can't be ham fisted and you need as much drill speed as you can get. Then finish with a 3/32 hole. It isn't really important what angle the hole is. Just as long as the hole in the tube breaks into the oil gallery it will get oil to the lifter.


Bushing the bores would be the best option, but I have never done a back to back test with the exact same block, going from non bushed bores to corrected bores. Unless I see it, I'm going to say that there is very little, if any power in it.


And to be totally honest, the small block Chevy and its big brother, have many many times more issues with lifter bore placement than any other brand. So how much would gain by bushing the bores? IDK. My guess is the same you'd gain by tubing the oil gallery.
 
This has me a little bit worried, I was going to use the exact same lifter but have not yet selected a cam. One cam I was considering has .630 lift at the valve (1.5 rocker).
Ironmike, would you be willing to share details on your cam lift and spring pressures? Is it a steel cam core?
 
This has me a little bit worried, I was going to use the exact same lifter but have not yet selected a cam. One cam I was considering has .630 lift at the valve (1.5 rocker).
Ironmike, would you be willing to share details on your cam lift and spring pressures? Is it a steel cam core?


I'll say it again...you can have .575 lift and have the lifter uncover that hole. If you are not running hydraulic lifters tube the oil gallery. It isn't hard. If you are running hydraulics, you can feed them with a 3/32 hole in the tube. The problem becomes the drivers side. Unless you block all the oil off going there, you'll still have issues. Some day, I'll look at tubing the drivers side as well.
 
YR, RAMM is in Canada. It'll cost a good bit extra to get material there. Easier for him to do it his way.

Anybody that has tubed a galley knows that peening the tube is easy but may not yield the desired results via a smooth wall. You'll need to home the lifter and tube.

Didn't MoPar make a tool to drill the oil hole after tubing and peening?
 
YR, RAMM is in Canada. It'll cost a good bit extra to get material there. Easier for him to do it his way.

Anybody that has tubed a galley knows that peening the tube is easy but may not yield the desired results via a smooth wall. You'll need to home the lifter and tube.

Didn't MoPar make a tool to drill the oil hole after tubing and peening?


Yes, you have to put the oil feed hole in the tube. Seen guys forget that and it's a bummer because the engine has to come out and be disassembled.

Also, I didn't mean for RAMM to tube the block. I meant the OP. I'd tube the OP's block if he was closer. If I had access to a CNC machine I'd be bushing the bores too. I used to have the BHJ fixture but if you crowded it you could end up with crapola results.
 
Lift is 668. Springs are Pac 1238x, can't remember the pressure, have to check that again to be sure. It's a Bullet solid roller. If I went to the .750 roller it would only lower the lifter .030, since the roller I have is .810. Might be just enough but I just believe the bigger roller is better able to handle higher spring pressures.

I would have to tube both sides, while keeping the oiling stock, so my rollers can be fed. Was Poking around the net and look what I found.WydendorfMachine.com - Wydendorf Machine

Pricey, but looks worth a thought at least...

Won't correct bad angles but I do it myself in my own shop.....you know what I mean.
Not to mention having that kind of tooling for future projects.

I sorta think like YR. I don't believe the lifter angles are that big a deal. They'd have to be waaay of to actually hurt power or longevity. Just my thoughts on that issue.

Looks pretty cool . Hope they're still available. Just in case.
 
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This has me a little bit worried, I was going to use the exact same lifter but have not yet selected a cam. One cam I was considering has .630 lift at the valve (1.5 rocker).
Ironmike, would you be willing to share details on your cam lift and spring pressures? Is it a steel cam core?
Hey man, if you could use 1.6 ratio rockers to get ya the same lift, your lifter will stay lower in the bore. Remember that. When going roller on these blocks, the lower you can keep that lifter at max lift the better. DON'T BE WORRIED. You'll get it all worked out! Seems like somehow.....we always do.
 
Lift is 668. Springs are Pac 1238x, can't remember the pressure, have to check that again to be sure. It's a Bullet solid roller. If I went to the .750 roller it would only lower the lifter .030, since the roller I have is .810. Might be just enough but I just believe the bigger roller is better able to handle higher spring pressures.

I would have to tube both sides, while keeping the oiling stock, so my rollers can be fed. Was Poking around the net and look what I found.WydendorfMachine.com - Wydendorf Machine

Pricey, but looks worth a thought at least...

Won't correct bad angles but I do it myself in my own shop.....you know what I mean.
Not to mention having that kind of tooling for future projects.

I sorta think like YR. I don't believe the lifter angles are that big a deal. They'd have to be waaay of to actually hurt power or longevity. Just my thoughts on that issue.

Looks pretty cool . Hope they're still available. Just in case.



I forgot about that deal. Seen it before. The biggest deal is how do you know the reamer to finish the bushings is the correct size to match your lifters? I mean, you can get in the MSC catalog yourself and buy the reamer a if you wanted to. And you can make the bushing driver on a lathe in half an hour to an hour depending on the size of the lathe.

I really wish I would have spent some time to do a tube down the drivers side. Then I'd know if it could be done. Without looking at a block I can't say why it can't be done. The real reason no one does it is because you can plug the oil off to the DS with a single plug and not deal with it. But that won't oil the lifters.

You could measure your lifters and call those dudes and see what size the reamer is. So you do have some options.
 
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