Car won't crank, Guage lights flash, and how do I pull my starter?

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Glenguy

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Hi, everyone. I'm trying to get my '66 Barracuda to start. First, I would like to stress that my battery and connections are fine. When I turn the key to ACC, the oil pressure and alternator guage lights flash on and off. When I turn the key to START, all I get is a click from the starter, and no solenoid rattle. It seems like a bad starter, but would the flashing guage lights indicate a bad ignition switch? Could it be both?

Question 2: how the heck do I pull my starter? I have pulled others starters, mostly GM ones with no problem, but on these old Cudas, the starter is crammed in such a small space, and the exhaust and left torsion bar are in the way. I'll show some pics:

this is how the starter is crammed in. The bottom bolt is accessable, but the top one is the challenge.

003.JPG


I might be able to use a long ratchet and an extension with a swivel attachment, but it sure looks like a hard thing to do at this angle. That starter motor is WAY under there!
005.JPG

Here is the view of the starter from the front of the car. The rad and grill assembly was off the car when I bought it, which now might be a convenient thing.
009.JPG



Here is a closer look at the starter. What i'm thinking of doing is passing some extension bars through the opening beside the engine block and at the top of the starter motor with a swivel attachment. I already did a test pass with a piece of dowel, and it passes right through.
010.JPG

Well there you have it. I have a feeling that going through the front of the car might be considerably easier than going from the top of the engine bay. What do you guys think?
 
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Before you pull the starter, mopars are notorious for lousy elec connections. Undo battery connections and check all your connections at the bulkhead that's located on the firewall.
I cant give a step by step on how to remove your starter sorry. Our 67 barracuda was done by laying under the drivers side of car. There should be no need to come from front rad area.
But like I said check battery and connections 1st. Load test battery.
Also go to mymopar.com and download free service manual as well as elec schematics and service manuals.
Good luck!
 
My vote is on bad electrical connection somewhere.
Can run a jumper from small wire on starter and direct to battery to test if starter cranks.
 
I guess you know that looks like the starter has been changed before.
That yellow crimp on the solenoid wire is a give away.
Not factory at all.
It also looks like you can get to the wire and the main battery lead there.
Like has been said, bad connection somewhere above is most likely.
I'm confused about this "flashing" light thing though.
I suppose you mean when you turn the key those things go off and when you let the key go they come on?
Yes, low voltage somewhere.
 
I agree with all that has been written above.
Approach it systematicly.
to wit -
1. Battery has enough stored power? Flip the headlights on briefly. Dim or strong. Dim - recharge or get new battery. Unsure - load test.
all I get is a click from the starter, and no solenoid rattle.
This can can happen when the battery is weak.
2. Connections? Disconnect the battery ground, then the positve terminal and meake sure they are clean. Make sure the connections at the relay are good. Then check the one at the starter with the replacement terminal. Wires should be firmly crimped to the terminal. I know, you wrote they are OK. Just going over it.
3. Relay or starter ? On a '66 the relay should look like this
upload_2019-11-16_8-4-54.png

When the key is in Start, there should be power in wire going to the diagonal terminal in the corner.
If the terminal in the other corner is grounded, then the circuit is completed and the relay closes. On an automatic, grounding is through the neutral safety switch. Since you hear a click, at least that part of the relay is good.
When the relay is closed, that connects the battery to the middle terminal.
upload_2019-11-16_8-11-23.png

A crude way to jumper those two is using a screw driver with an insulated handle. Do not touch any body ground!

When you go to remove the starter, disconnect the battery, then the heavy and small wires at the starter.
One attaching bolt is a long hex head machine screw, but the other may be a nut on a stud.
Access them however is most convenient to you with the tools you have.
 
I think you'll find there is a straight shot at that upper bolt so no universal req'd. With any luck the lower will be a stud with nut on it. Stud supports and aligns that heavy *** starter. Makes upper bolt easier less likely to get cross threaded. Most opt for the modern high torque mini starter as replacement. I will too someday, when my last good used starter fails.
You might first lower the starter and move it to where you can better access its wire connections.
It helps me mentally to know there are some that are a heck of a lot more difficult than this one.
 
yes on connections, i jumped the gun and bought a new mini starter, not sad there but it was unnecessary, ended up being my solenoid connections
 
When I turn the key to ACC, the oil pressure and alternator guage lights flash on and off.
This is really puzzling. I think your saying the illumination lights are flashing on, even though the headlight switch is off.
It does seem like a cross wiring at the switch or elsewhere.

The Accessory position provides power to key switched circuits and the wiper motor.
The Run position does the same thing, and it also provides power to the ignition and alternator circuits (all lumped under Ignition 1)
Start provides power only to Ignition 2, and the starter relay trigger.

Generally, the circuits look like this
upload_2019-11-16_8-47-32.png


Instrument lamps get power through the fuse that is always hot and are tied to the headlight switch. A rheostat in the headlight switch controls the brightness.

FWIW. On 67 and probably your 66, the parking light fuse has two wires out. One to the dome light, the other to the B2 terminal on the headlight switch. Crimped onto the B2 connector is the wire to the brake light switch.
 
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FWIW. On 67 and probably your 66, the parking light fuse has two wires out. One to the dome light, the other to the B2 terminal on the headlight switch. Crimped onto the B2 connector is the wire to the brake light switch.
Actually, same concept but the routing to the instrument lamps at least for '67 is as follows.
Power comes from the main splice.
It goes to the Fuse shared with the brake lights.
Fuse out to the headlight switch B2 terminal, through the resistor controlled by the knob, then out the Instrument lamp terminal.
Tan wire from intr. terminal feeds a 3 amp fuse in the fusebox.
Then from the 3 amp fuse to a splice and connector(s) to the lamps.
Some or all lamps final connection is through the printed circuit board.
@RedFish will prob know if the 66 Barracuda instrument lamps are on the cicuit board.
upload_2019-11-16_9-51-47.png
 
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Thanks for the replies, everyone, and thanks for the diagrams. as I mentioned earlier, the battery and the connections are good. The interior lights, Tail lights (the headlights are out of the car) the wipers, heater motor, and horn all work with the battery that i have been using. I'm keeping the battery on a float charger. I even tried the battery on my driver car, and the Cuda still won't crank. Even if the battery was low, I should still get a slow crank if the starter is good. I tried jumping the starter with a screwdriver, but it just clicks and doesn't crank the engine. I think I'll pull the starter and have it tested, then I will at least know whether it's hooped or still good.
 
Here is what the wiring looks like on the firewall. Someone did put a Ford relay switch on it, though. Don't mind the broken fusible link. I did replace that.

004.JPG
 
I agree with all that has been written above.
Approach it systematicly.
to wit -
1. Battery has enough stored power? Flip the headlights on briefly. Dim or strong. Dim - recharge or get new battery. Unsure - load test.
This can can happen when the battery is weak.
2. Connections? Disconnect the battery ground, then the positve terminal and meake sure they are clean. Make sure the connections at the relay are good. Then check the one at the starter with the replacement terminal. Wires should be firmly crimped to the terminal. I know, you wrote they are OK. Just going over it.
3. Relay or starter ? On a '66 the relay should look like this
View attachment 1715423936
When the key is in Start, there should be power in wire going to the diagonal terminal in the corner.
If the terminal in the other corner is grounded, then the circuit is completed and the relay closes. On an automatic, grounding is through the neutral safety switch. Since you hear a click, at least that part of the relay is good.
When the relay is closed, that connects the battery to the middle terminal.
View attachment 1715423937
A crude way to jumper those two is using a screw driver with an insulated handle. Do not touch any body ground!

When you go to remove the starter, disconnect the battery, then the heavy and small wires at the starter.
One attaching bolt is a long hex head machine screw, but the other may be a nut on a stud.
Access them however is most convenient to you with the tools you have.

Good info. Thanks. I want to pull the starter and have it checked, but before I do that, i want to try the jumper wire thing.
 
I'm not sure what to make of the Ford solenoid, but it appears that the same wire is connected to the starter's 'solenoid engage' terminal and to the Ford's solenoid 'power thru' terminal. If so, a test light on that wire [when you turn the key to start] should light up.
 
No idea if that solenoid is wired correctly, but I would put the proper one in there 1st before anything else and go from there.
 
Here is what the wiring looks like on the firewall. Someone did put a Ford relay switch on it, though. Don't mind the broken fusible link. I did replace that.

View attachment 1715424354
Chrysler used those at least through 1960.
Sometimes used with battery in the trunk wiring.
But yes the questions now are how is it wired? Why was it wired this way? and is easier and better to just wire it like a '66. Chrysler type relays are can be readily purchased.

The advantage of that type of heavy solenoid relay is when a heavy current has to pass through it.
Normally the big battery cable attaches to one of the big side lugs, and on the other side is the big cable to the starter. Ford Starters don't internal solenoid relay.

One of the side lugs connects to the trigger from the start switch. The other is often used for the start circuit bypass of the ballast resistor or resistance wire. NSS connection is on bottom, if present at all.
 
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Even if the battery was low, I should still get a slow crank if the starter is good. I tried jumping the starter with a screwdriver, but it just clicks and doesn't crank the engine. I think I'll pull the starter and have it tested, then I will at least know whether it's hooped or still good.
If you have a local electrical shop that can bench test, that's great.

Do you have multimeter?
If not, pick up a cheap one. I like analog for cheap ones, but whatever you can get.

You can use it to check for which wires get voltage when the battery is connected and key is run, access etc.
Also with the battery disconnected check for continuity. Seeing that solenoid relay with what looks to be the start ignition wire on it, and the dash lights flickering on with the key switch accessory, I'd check the key switch to see what terminals get conencted in each position.

Get the Plymouth Service manual for '66. I prefer print but digital is sometimes useful too. Bishko is one place to buy.
You can download a digital copy from here MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Service Manuals
At the end of the electrical section are full wiring diagrams including the wire positions for each cavity in the bulkhead connector.
 
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If you have a local electrical shop that can bench test, that's great.

Do you have multimeter?
If not, pick up a cheap one. I like analog for cheap ones, but whatever you can get.

You can use it to check for which wires get voltage when the battery is connected and key is run, access etc.
Also with the battery disconnected check for continuity. Seeing that solenoid relay with what looks to be the start ignition wire on it, and the dash lights flickering on with the key switch accessory, I'd check the key switch to see what terminals get conencted in each position.

Get the Plymouth Service manual for '66. I prefer print but digital is sometimes useful too. Bishko is one place to buy.
You can download a digital copy from here MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Service Manuals
At the end of the electrical section are full wiring diagrams including the wire positions for each cavity in the bulkhead connector.
Thanks for all that. I'll look into it.
 
Whew! This is amazing! As a guitar player, I can rewire an electric guitar and do all kinds of mods, but when it comes to cars, I'm a complete butthead in the electronics department! A cousin of mine, who is a master mechanic suggested that that I get everything back to original; I'm starting to believe it! However, I'm going to pull the starter, have it tested, get it out of the flowchart, and then fine tune the rest. The person who had the car before me sure dicked around with it. I'll just have to keep working through this Rubix cube. There is a goldmine of info here, and I sure appreciate it!
 
Whew! This is amazing! As a guitar player, I can rewire an electric guitar and do all kinds of mods, but when it comes to cars, I'm a complete butthead in the electronics department! A cousin of mine, who is a master mechanic suggested that that I get everything back to original; I'm starting to believe it! However, I'm going to pull the starter, have it tested, get it out of the flowchart, and then fine tune the rest. The person who had the car before me sure dicked around with it. I'll just have to keep working through this Rubix cube. There is a goldmine of info here, and I sure appreciate it!
You'll be fine then.

The only 'trick' about understanding the car wiring is knowing that power comes from two different sources depending on the situation.
And with the exception of the starter, all power is distributed from the main splice.
upload_2019-11-18_8-41-41.png


Everything connected to that is always hot as long as the battery is connected.
But the battery's power is essentially at 12.8 Volts. (It will get pulled down from there during starting, and will have surface charge a little higher after charging).
When the engine is running and the alternator working, the alternator can provide power at something above that; generally around 14 Volts.
As long as that's true, the alternator provides power.
Power always flows from the highest voltage source; either battery or alternator.
upload_2019-11-18_8-48-55.png


For fixing the wires.
Most of the terminals are 'open barrel' type crimps.
Get a crimper that does them.
The female terminals are mostly 'Chrysler type' which seems to be Packard 58 series.
upload_2019-11-18_9-5-20.png

The Chrysler or Packard 58 types will fit properly in the original connector housings. Packard 56 sometimes don't fit right. I think its because they are too short.
upload_2019-11-18_9-8-57.png

The male terminals seem to the same as Packard 56.
Sources for Chrysler type wire terminals
 
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You'll be fine then.

The only 'trick' about understanding the car wiring is knowing that power comes from two different sources depending on the situation.
And with the exception of the starter, all power is distributed from the main splice.
View attachment 1715424989

Everything connected to that is always hot as long as the battery is connected.
But the battery's power is essentially at 12.8 Volts. (It will get pulled down from there during starting, and will have surface charge a little higher after charging).
When the engine is running and the alternator working, the alternator can provide power at something above that; generally around 14 Volts.
As long as that's true, the alternator provides power.
Power always flows from the highest voltage source; either battery or alternator.
View attachment 1715424990

For fixing the wires.
Most of the terminals are 'open barrel' type crimps.
Get a crimper that does them.
The female terminals are mostly 'Chrysler type' which seems to be Packard 58 series.
View attachment 1715424998
These will fit properly in the original connector housings.
View attachment 1715425000
The male terminals seem to the same as Packard 56.
Sources for Chrysler type wire terminals

Thanks! I'll study those diagrams. It certainly is good learning experience.
 
So far as a Ferd solenoid...........if you have an automatic there is no possible way to connect the neutral safety switch. There IS a "little used" Jeep / AMC relay that looks like a Ferd and has one extra terminal. easiest is to just us a Mopar and be done
 
Back in the day you could jump start a Mustang with a small 6' jumper wire and a screwdriver. No inside the car hood release. They had 1 relay coil terminal and an internal ground. Some time later they went with 2 relay coil terminals. -----[[[[[I suppose you could use ign switch start on one terminal and neutral/park ground for the other terminal]]]]] Incorrect info,disregard----- . However, this is a bad idea. The Furd solenoid is a high current device. The relay coil requires many amps which could fry the neutral/park switch.

Stay with the dependable Mopar set-up.
 
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I have not read the replies. Did anyone say that you need to turn the front wheels all the way to the right, to get the steering linkage out of the way so you can remove the starter?
 
Back in the day you could jump start a Mustang with a small 6' jumper wire and a screwdriver. No inside the car hood release. They had 1 relay coil terminal and an internal ground. Some time later they went with 2 relay coil terminals. I suppose you could use ign switch start on one terminal and neutral/park ground for the other terminal. However, this is a bad idea. The Furd solenoid is a high current device. The relay coil requires many amps which could fry the neutral/park switch.

Stay with the dependable Mopar set-up.

Sorry not true. ALL Ford 12V solenoids are what is known as "grounded base." You can not integrate a grounding safety switch with a Ford solenoid. The second terminal on a Ford is for the ignition bypass, and if you find one that is properly lettered, the relay coil will say "S" for 'start' or maybe 'solenoid' and the bypass will say "I" for ignition.
 
67dart; you are correct, sir. The 'I' terminal provides 12V to the ignition coil when starting the car. My mistake. I'll try to fix my post. In a move of desperation you could mount the Furd solenoid on a block of wood, mount the wood to the car [isolated], and run the neutral/park wire to the solenoid base bracket.

I made a remote control for a winch years ago. I used 4 Furd solenoids to do it. Works well.
 
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