Bad Master Cylinder or Air?

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moparstud440

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So I swapped my car from front drums to disc this winter. Bought a new master cylinder, swapped out the distribution block for a proportioning valve. Front calipers and hoses are new. The 1st pump on the pedal it almost goes to the floor but will stop the car but takes awhile. The 2nd pump has decent pedal and the 3rd pump has a really good pedal. Wait a few seconds and its back to the soft pedal. Initially I didn't bench bleed the master cylinder and left the distribution block on there. I have since swapped out the distribution block, bench bleed the master cylinder and continue to bleed the lines. I even left the bleeders open and left the fluid gravity feed for almost half a day (keeping an eye on the level and refilling as necessary). Even after this the pedal is still soft on the 1st pump. When bleeding the rear brakes the pedal only goes halfway to the floor (meaning the front brakes are functioning). But when I do the front brakes the pedal goes to the floor (So I'm guessing its the rear brakes that's the issue). Now when I did the gravity bleed, the front brakes reservoir I filled up twice, but the rear only once as it was alot slower to bleed even though I complete removed the bleeders. I'm going to try to bleed the rear brakes again, but is there anyway to determine if maybe my master cylinder just isn't working correctly? I've went thru 30-35oz of brake fluid in all of my processes thus far.
 
You have air. If you had the solid plugs for the M/C, it should bleed and get a very solid feel. Some M/C's used to give solid plugs for bleeding, instead of hoses looped to the top.

I used to see an abandoned 73-74 Road Runner on the way to Keymar from Taneytown. My old green Fury wagon is out there somewhere too.
 
a few things come to mind.

1. you can not gravity bleed the rear drum brakes there is a valve in the MC that requires MC pressure to over come.
2. Have you adjusted the rear drum brakes to have a slight scrapping of the shoe on the drum as you rotate the drum?
3. air can get trapped in the lines and it can get aerated so there are tiny bubbles in the fluid that will take forever to get out.

If it was me I would get a helper and bleed the brakes from pass rear to drivers rear to pass front to drivers front. make sure the MC is full, have assistant SLOWLY depresses the pedal, if the assistant feels pressure you slowly open the bleeder, then close BEFORE the assistant takes foot off the pedal. ( tip... get some clear tubing that fits snugly over the nipple of the bleeder) if there is no pressure have assistant repeat lifting and pressing SLOWLY till there is pressure then you open the bleeder SLOWLY. This has ALWAYS worked for me

check the MC often if it gets empty you have to start over from the beginning.


Just a double check, you have a Disc Drum master cyl, the reservoir closer to the firewall is larger then the front AND you have your FRONT discs connected to it?
 
You can bleed the master cylinder with a cheap kit. I got this style from Napa. This is how I do it. Just keep the lines submerged while bleeding. You can do it using your brake petal as well you just need someone pumping while you keep the lines in fluid.
Also are you just using a proportioning valve ? I would use a 1974 Disc brake distribution block then maybe a proportioning valve if needed. I am not sure but I don't think just a proportioning valve will work but I've never done it that way.

Brake bleed.jpeg
 
You have air. If you had the solid plugs for the M/C, it should bleed and get a very solid feel. Some M/C's used to give solid plugs for bleeding, instead of hoses looped to the top.

I used to see an abandoned 73-74 Road Runner on the way to Keymar from Taneytown. My old green Fury wagon is out there somewhere too.
'

If the 73-74 Road Runner your talking about is right along 194 it's still there...
 
a few things come to mind.

1. you can not gravity bleed the rear drum brakes there is a valve in the MC that requires MC pressure to over come.
2. Have you adjusted the rear drum brakes to have a slight scrapping of the shoe on the drum as you rotate the drum?
3. air can get trapped in the lines and it can get aerated so there are tiny bubbles in the fluid that will take forever to get out.

If it was me I would get a helper and bleed the brakes from pass rear to drivers rear to pass front to drivers front. make sure the MC is full, have assistant SLOWLY depresses the pedal, if the assistant feels pressure you slowly open the bleeder, then close BEFORE the assistant takes foot off the pedal. ( tip... get some clear tubing that fits snugly over the nipple of the bleeder) if there is no pressure have assistant repeat lifting and pressing SLOWLY till there is pressure then you open the bleeder SLOWLY. This has ALWAYS worked for me

check the MC often if it gets empty you have to start over from the beginning.


Just a double check, you have a Disc Drum master cyl, the reservoir closer to the firewall is larger then the front AND you have your FRONT discs connected to it?

Rear brakes were adjusted so there is a slight drag/scrapping.

Master Cylinder is correct for Drum/Disc. Front reservoir is smaller and the back one (closer to firewall) is larger.

I didn't realize the rear would not gravity bleed, I'll continue to bleed the rears and see if I can get a better brake pedal.
 
You can bleed the master cylinder with a cheap kit. I got this style from Napa. This is how I do it. Just keep the lines submerged while bleeding. You can do it using your brake petal as well you just need someone pumping while you keep the lines in fluid.
Also are you just using a proportioning valve ? I would use a 1974 Disc brake distribution block then maybe a proportioning valve if needed. I am not sure but I don't think just a proportioning valve will work but I've never done it that way.

View attachment 1715489466

Just using the proportioning valve in place of the original distribution block. I thought that's all I needed?
 
Make sure the air is not trapped at the top. Even when bench-bled, it is not uncommon to get a little trapped between the master and the lines during install. Try barely loosening the lines at the m/c and see if that helps. It is very difficult to force air downward in liquid. I’ve seen a lot of very small air pockets trapped here.
 
This has been my life since my brake swap.

Hope you get it figured out as I'd love to know how to fix mine as well :popcorn:
 
I had a lot of trouble bleeding my brakes when I did the KH swap on the wagon. I ended up using a Phoenix Injector, which pushes the brake fluid from the brake end backwards to the master cylinder. That worked very well.

I borrowed the tool from my dad. I gave him endless **** when he bought it, because I thought it was a gimmicky waste of money. He still asks me weekly how his gimmicky tool worked out.
 
I put the check valve type bleeders on my front kelsey hayes calipers. You crack one loose , put a piece of tubing over it and pump into cup. Bled fronts by myself . Had my son at the pedal when bleeding the rears.
 
Are the calipers installed on the correct sides ? Are the bleeders on the top ?
 
@my5thmopar, what about my post do you disagree with. Just posting a disagree does not help anyone. No hard feelings, just curious! Maybe I made a mistake!
 
@my5thmopar, what about my post do you disagree with. Just posting a disagree does not help anyone. No hard feelings, just curious! Maybe I made a mistake!

@Dana67Dart It's called fat finger on iPhone. I think you gave sound advice. But, I will say just because the reservoirs are different sizes doesn't mean it is a disk/drum. He needs to check for the residual valve. I've never had much luck with gravity bleeding anyway. Air in system is my guess. If I was doing it, I would block off MC for rear and see if I could get a hard pedal. Basically eliminate front vs back.
 
Understand, I agree different size is not 100% guarantee of disk drum but I have never seen a drum drum that was small and large.
 
How does the master cylinder sit in the car? Is it level or does it nose up in the front? If it noses up in the front like a lot do, you need to position the car so the master cylinder is level or you'll never get all of the air out. It will remain trapped in the very front of the master cylinder.
 
You ever figure the problem out?

I have not. I don't always have an extra person around to help bleed the brakes, so I ordered a vacuum bleeder to give that a shot. I'm certain the front brakes are functionally 100% as when I bleed the rear brakes I still have half of a pedal. When I bleed the rear brakes the pedal goes to the floor, so I"m certain it's the rear line still has air in.
 
How does the master cylinder sit in the car? Is it level or does it nose up in the front? If it noses up in the front like a lot do, you need to position the car so the master cylinder is level or you'll never get all of the air out. It will remain trapped in the very front of the master cylinder.

Master Cylinder sits level.
 
I have not. I don't always have an extra person around to help bleed the brakes, so I ordered a vacuum bleeder to give that a shot. I'm certain the front brakes are functionally 100% as when I bleed the rear brakes I still have half of a pedal. When I bleed the rear brakes the pedal goes to the floor, so I"m certain it's the rear line still has air in.

If its the Motive Power bleeder, be careful. The cap that came with the bleeder worked great, however, the factory master cylinder cap relieved all pressure at 5psi and blew brake fluid all over my car, while the cap was still installed! I ended up bleeding mine the old school way, although a set of speed bleeders front and rear made it a 1 person job.
 
I think you need to figure out f this is a hydraulic problem, or if it is a mechanical problem.
Lets attack the hydraulics first;
Crank the rear adjuster hard so you cannot even spin the wheels; now go step on the pedal. If now high and hard you have no hydraulic problem.
But if still excessive travel; remove the calipers and C-clamp the pistons into the bottom of the calipers then pedal-test. If now high and hard, you have no hydraulic problem.
But if still have excessive travel,or soft/spongy pedal, that would be air, or bad hoses.
If the pedal falls with continuous and constant foot pressure; fluid is leaking somewhere; it could be external, or if you cannot find an external leak, then the M/C is leaking internally and since it is new, I would warranty it.
There should NOT be a residual valve in the line going to the calipers.
If your rear wcs are new, then a residual valve to the rear is optional, as modern wcs have expander springs inside them that do much the same thing. If they are in there, I just leave them be.
With factory Mopar brake systems, the frontmost reservoir should be plumbed to the rear brakes.
Your car, should probably have a Combination Valve. This item has 3 functions; 1) as a distribution block, 2) a rear proportioning valve, and 3) a safety switch to turn on your parking brake lite, if either side of the system fails. If you don't have a lite then you can use something else, but you still need to Proportion the rear brakes....... unless maybe if you have big-N-litte tires.
As to the mechanical side;
If it should happen that the above tests prove that the hydraulic system is functioning fine, then you have a mechanical problem.
With the rear shoes still jammed up, install just one caliper and pedal test again.
If excessive travel again; go watch the caliper as a helper works the pedal. Something is probably flexing. Usually I find it in the pad alignment. The pad faces have to be parallel to the steel backing, and sometimes the anti-rattle material gets crossed up. Do not use any RTV as a silencer; if you did then remove it; it just acts like spring. The second place I find flex is the interface between the steel backers and whatever anchors them from rotating.It could be the caliper brackets or the slider-pins depending on which system you have. Or it could be rotor run-out pushing the pistons back into the bores while driving. Then you gotta pump them back out to get brakes. I have never seen a caliper flex.
So after you find and fix the flex, do the same on the other side, and then pedal test .
If the pedal is now hi and hard, relax the rear adjusters, and road test.
But if still wonky, remove the rear drums and shoes. C-clamp the wc pistons into the bodies and pedal-test. This is the last test so the pedal better be high and hard!
If it is, then lay a shoe into a drum and see if it rocks. If it does check all the shoes in both drums. If they all rock, take all the shoes and both drums down to the brake shop and have them ground to fit eachother. Reinstall, pedal test, and your problems should be over.
Why is this important? Because #1 if the shoes rock, they are only touching in the one spot., and #2, then you get poor rear brakes. This causes you to step on the brakes harder, which may cause the rear drums to go momentarily out of round, and they act like a big spring. #3,The shoes then become glazed in the little patch that was working so hard.That glazed area becomes smooth and hard, and offers very little braking action,and it will have to be either burned off with miles or ground off on a machine, so it can work again.
Happy hunting
 
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