Charging issues on a ‘64 Valiant...

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Scanch

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Brand new to this. Really appreciate everyone’s knowledge. I have a 1964 Signet 200 and was overcharging from ~16.5-18+ Volts. I did a 1 wire Fleet Bypass on the Ammeter. Bypassed the bulkhead for blue IGN 1 that leads to the ballast. I switched the old 2 wire mechanical voltage regulator for a 2 wire electronic one with the triangle plug. Now the voltage with car running is at 12.45. If I turn on high beams, radio, etc, it drops to around 11.95. Now the battery shouldn’t be charging?, but I have been able to start my car 5 times now and run all accessories for ~5 minutes. Before when a regulator fried on me and it wasn’t charging I could only get her to start once after using a battery charger. Appreciate any input.
 
Sounds as if it is not charging.

Please more details about "how' you converted the regulator. After the conversion, your alternator MUST have two insulated (isolated) field terminals. There should be "ignition run" switched 12V to one terminal, and the green wire going back to the VR connected to the remaining alternator field

If you simply connected the new VR in place of your old one it will not charge. In other words you need a '70 or later alternator with 2 field connectors.

From MyMopar: Here is what your old circuit looked like

MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Mopar Charging System Overview and Conversion

pic1.gif


Abovethe VR is connected to switched 12V and feeds and controls power to the field and through the field to ground, controlling the charge rate

Below is the conversion

pic2.gif


The electronic regulator for 70 and later does NOT have a field (brush) to ground. Instead, one field terminal gets 12V power, and the green wire to the VR controls the GROUND side of the field
 
Please more details about "how' you converted the regulator. After the conversion, your alternator MUST have two insulated (isolated) field terminals. There should be "ignition run" switched 12V to one terminal, and the green wire going back to the VR connected to the remaining alternator field

If you simply connected the new VR in place of your old one it will not charge. In other words you need a '70 or later alternator with 2 field connectors.

From MyMopar: Here is what your old circuit looked like

MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Mopar Charging System Overview and Conversion

View attachment 1715503612

Abovethe VR is connected to switched 12V and feeds and controls power to the field and through the field to ground, controlling the charge rate

Below is the conversion

View attachment 1715503614

The electronic regulator for 70 and later does NOT have a field (brush) to ground. Instead, one field terminal gets 12V power, and the green wire to the VR controls the GROUND side of the field

My alternator has the brush internally grounded. One green wire with the spade and the black charging wire at stud.
 
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Probably a bad VR new ones are hit or miss

Yeah I have heard. Second one in the last 2 months. I thought I would have better luck with the electronic VR. I still don’t understand why my battery isn’t drained.
 
Did you properly wire in your new triangle-plug regulator? It's not a direct drop-in for the pre-'70 regulators, and if you try to treat it that way you'll have a no-charging situation. If you want direct drop-in electronic, this dude is your best pick. While you're at it, run a wire from the alternator housing to the regulator base, and from the reg base to battery negative. And even if you did change the engine bay wiring to accommodate the '70-up triangle-plug regulator, the regulator must be grounded (bolted to the firewall) in order to function, so if you just left it hanging and started the car to check it, that wouldn't work.
 
My alternator has the brush internally grounded. One green wire with the spade and the black charging wire at stud.

Then it will never work. IF your going to use the "flat" VR with the "triangle" connector, you MUST have an isolated field alternator.

First, show us a photo of the alternator. If you are lucky, it might be a modified one that you can "modify back." If not you have two choices

Either replace the alternator with a 70/ later (I would use a 73/ later "squareback"

Or replace the VR with a 69/ earlier and most any new one you buy will be electronic. That is easy to tell, just look on the bottom. The older mechanical ones have two wirewound resistors underneath, the electronic ones don't.
 
Did you properly wire in your new triangle-plug regulator? It's not a direct drop-in for the pre-'70 regulators, and if you try to treat it that way you'll have a no-charging situation. If you want direct drop-in electronic, this dude is your best pick. While you're at it, run a wire from the alternator housing to the regulator base, and from the reg base to battery negative. And even if you did change the engine bay wiring to accommodate the '70-up triangle-plug regulator, the regulator must be grounded (bolted to the firewall) in order to function, so if you just left it hanging and started the car to check it, that wouldn't work.

Yes I believe so. My alternator has one field wire internally grounded. The new connector has only a blue and a green wire just like my mechanical one did. I moved its location to the fender and removed the paint down to metal. I also ran a ground from the case to my battery negative.
 
1EE4CBC9-6AC8-49BB-93EB-7A312D936857.png
Then it will never work. IF your going to use the "flat" VR with the "triangle" connector, you MUST have an isolated field alternator.

First, show us a photo of the alternator. If you are lucky, it might be a modified one that you can "modify back." If not you have two choices

Either replace the alternator with a 70/ later (I would use a 73/ later "squareback"

Or replace the VR with a 69/ earlier and most any new one you buy will be electronic. That is easy to tell, just look on the bottom. The older mechanical ones have two wirewound resistors underneath, the electronic ones don't.
 
If you want direct drop-in electronic, this dude is your best pick.
Actually Dan, that one has also become hit or miss in terms of survival. I e-mailed Standard's tech and asked how much field current it could handle. The tech couldn't find out. You can see where I'm going. I suspect that regulator can't handle the current draw of some of the 'higher output' alternators, in particular probably most any revised squareback. My backup now is FBO's version but can't say it will be more durable or not. Just what I will try next. And it looks original for those who want that.
 
I agree with 67Dart273.

Lets break it up so maybe it will make sense to you.
Field is short for electro-magnetic field. The rotor has copper windings that are the electromagnet. It turns on when current flows through them. The voltage regulator controls the current by opening and closing the connection, or a middle setting where it lets some current through.
The regulator with the triangular plug opens and closes the connection to ground.
The original regulator opens and controls the power going in. Ground is permanent.

I did a 1 wire Fleet Bypass on the Ammeter.
Don't know what you followed here.
Fleet wiring did not bypass the ammeter.
It split the load before the bulkhead and the battery feed/charge wires went through a grommet.

Bypassed the bulkhead for blue IGN 1 that leads to the ballast.
OK. So the Ign 1 goes through a grommet. That's fine.

I switched the old 2 wire mechanical voltage regulator for a 2 wire electronic one with the triangle plug. Now the voltage with car running is at 12.45. If I turn on high beams, radio, etc, it drops to around 11.95. Now the battery shouldn’t be charging?, but I have been able to start my car 5 times now and run all accessories for ~5 minutes. Before when a regulator fried on me and it wasn’t charging I could only get her to start once after using a battery charger. Appreciate any input.
OK. Now you know the alternator field either must get power from a positive switching regulator, or
the field must get the power from ignition 1 and the second field terminal must go to the triangle of a ground switching regulator.

Before you start the car again, put the battery on slow charge (2 amps if its a manually controlled current).
Even though you can't monitor the charging with the engine running (since there's no ammeter) its bad for the alternator and the battery to be recharging a battery that is very low.
 
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For reference:
This is a 'Fleet' type wiring for a 1973 B-body with Chrysler 60-amp alternator.
upload_2020-4-9_8-37-41.png

It uses a terminal block and two fusible links.


Here's the wiring of a typical 65-69 alternator showing power flow when charging.
A '64 would be similar except no fusible link.
upload_2020-4-9_8-48-50.png


If you want to use a positive controlling regulator ('70 up type) then the connections have to be changed like this:
upload_2020-4-9_8-54-47.png

  • Remove the grounding wire from the alternator's brush terminal.
  • Connect this terminal to the green wire on the triangular connector's pigtail.
  • Connect the ignition 1 (run) circuit to both the regulators pigtail's blue wire and the other brush terminal on the alternator.
The ignition 1 (run) wire connection is how the regulator senses voltage.

The original (1964) ignition wire to the regulator may only be 18 ga. I'd suggest running 16 ga to the alternator if you are running a new wire. Also use a wire with oil resistant and higher temperature insulation if possible.

While making suggestions... consider adding 16 ga fusible link at the starter relay. You can buy them with the ring terminal already installed from parts stores. It will be orange (Ford color) instead of blue. Or you can buy a blue with from Evans Wiring. Ask for the B-body link to get the one with the ring terminal for the starter relay on one end.

Those alternations combined with the 'fleet type' bulkhead bypass would end up with a schematic like this.
upload_2020-4-9_9-19-2.png
 
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For reference:
This is a 'Fleet' type wiring for a 1973 B-body with Chrysler 60-amp alternator.
View attachment 1715503714
It uses a terminal block and two fusible links.


Here's the wiring of a typical 65-69 alternator showing power flow when charging.
A '64 would be similar except no fusible link.
View attachment 1715503716

If you want to use a positive controlling regulator ('70 up type) then the connections have to be changed like this:
View attachment 1715503718
  • Remove the grounding wire from the alternator's brush terminal.
  • Connect this terminal to the green wire on the triangular connector's pigtail.
  • Connect the ignition 1 (run) circuit to both the regulators pigtail's blue wire and the other brush terminal on the alternator.
The ignition 1 (run) wire connection is how the regulator senses voltage.

The original (1964) ignition wire to the regulator may only be 18 ga. I'd suggest running 16 ga to the alternator if you are running a new wire. Also use a wire with oil resistant and higher temperature insulation if possible.

While making suggestions... consider adding 16 ga fusible link at the starter relay. You can buy them with the ring terminal already installed from parts stores. It will be orange (Ford color) instead of blue. Or you can buy a blue with from Evans Wiring. Ask for the B-body link to get the one with the ring terminal for the starter relay on one end.

Those alternations combined with the 'fleet type' bulkhead bypass would end up with a schematic like this.
View attachment 1715503730

I knew the electronic ones worked differently, but I didn’t understand how. What I called a “1 wire fleet bypass” was the wrong terminology. I upgraded to heavier gauge wires, used a grommet, added fusible links, and removed the ammeter. My alternator seems to be converted to 1 field by removing the (insulated washer?) and clipping the spade connector. Am I correct when assuming I can reverse this by adding an insulator washer?
Thanks for the knowledge!
 
OK I better understand now. I don't know where or how you connected but I don't think that bears on your questions.
If it does, we can come back to it. The above diagrams should help you see the arrangements.
My alternator seems to be converted to 1 field by removing the (insulated washer?) and clipping the spade connector. Am I correct when assuming I can reverse this by adding an insulator washer?
It sounds like it may be real unmolested 'single field' alternator. If so, the second brush can not be insulated from housing. The brush holder is cast into the housing. That brush is always grounded and can't be insulated.
 
OK I better understand now. I don't know where or how you connected but I don't think that bears on your questions.
If it does, we can come back to it. The above diagrams should help you see the arrangements.

It sounds like it may be real unmolested 'single field' alternator. If so, the second brush can not be insulated from housing. The brush holder is cast into the housing. That brush is always grounded and can't be insulated.

A1D640A3-7C2D-4A65-A9F3-7265C5714FB4.png
 
Is that yours or a photo off the internet? Those terminals are both insulated.

What I understood from
My alternator seems to be converted to 1 field by removing the (insulated washer?) and clipping the spade connector.
Is that you are seeing something like this.
upload_2020-1-23_17-10-13-png.png


This is an alternator with a grounded field terminal. The ground brush holder is cast in.
The insulated brush has a plastic holder.
upload_2020-1-23_17-12-40-png.png


upload_2020-1-23_17-13-21-png.png


Inside view showing brush holder cast into housing or 'shield'.
upload_2018-12-28_19-21-31-png.png
 
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If you have an alternator with both horizontal and vertical brushes in plastic holders, then you can replace the parts and convert the wiring so it works with that type of regulator. Or you still have the option of grounding one and using a positive controlling regulator.
I posted a crib sheet for the replacement brushes and holders here:
Alternator repair, a little show and tell.

If your alternator is a later 'revised' squareback, those use different brush holders.
 
If you have an alternator with both horizontal and vertical brushes in plastic holders, then you can replace the parts and convert the wiring so it works with that type of regulator. Or you still have the option of grounding one and using a positive controlling regulator.
I posted a crib sheet for the replacement brushes and holders here:
Alternator repair, a little show and tell.

That is the same exact one is mine. I used the picture off Amazon because it’s raining. Both brushes are there, but if you see the one on the left has the full spade connector and a black washer and the one on the right has the tip of spade clipped off with no washer. I believe I may be able to convert it back thanks to the help on here.
 
I knew the electronic ones worked differently, but I didn’t understand how. What I called a “1 wire fleet bypass” was the wrong terminology. I upgraded to heavier gauge wires, used a grommet, added fusible links, and removed the ammeter. My alternator seems to be converted to 1 field by removing the (insulated washer?) and clipping the spade connector. Am I correct when assuming I can reverse this by adding an insulator washer?
Thanks for the knowledge!

NO. READ my posts. READ what I posted earlier. YOU MUST have the proper alternator. POST a PHOTO of the ALTERNATOR you have now. "It might be" that it is one that can be converted due to it's construction and due to the act of some rebuilder before you.

You are not the first to have gone through this. Some of us on here know what we are talking about

POST a photo of YOUR alternator so that the field terminals are clearly visible
 
NO. READ my posts. READ what I posted earlier. YOU MUST have the proper alternator. POST a PHOTO of the ALTERNATOR you have now. "It might be" that it is one that can be converted due to it's construction and due to the act of some rebuilder before you.

You are not the first to have gone through this. Some of us on here know what we are talking about

POST a photo of YOUR alternator so that the field terminals are clearly visible
79E96363-B738-4748-980D-8BFC34C4652F.png


This is my exact alternator. I have read what you wrote. You answered many of my questions. I understand I need 2 fields for the electronic one to work.
 
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I am now using both fields of the alternator and my electronic voltage regulator is functioning properly. The car is now charging again and is no longer overcharging either. I removed the metal washer and added an insulated one to the internally grounded brush on my converted alternator. I want to thank both of you for taking your time to answer my question so quickly!
 
GREAT!!! I was getting the feeling I wasn't getting through, there......................

Now tuck a couple things away in the back for "later." MANY guys have bought those very alternators---rebuilt---or unknown sources-------where one field was mysteriously grounded. This is NOT GOOD if you happen to connect the ignition feed to that grounded terminal!!!

Also after you get the battery "up and normal" check it for charging voltage and make sure it is not too high. Voltage drop, either in the ground circuit, or the harness, causes this. Post back, get it warmed up and charged up, and read battery voltage at a "fast idle" to simulate low-to med speed cruise RPM
 
Electronic VR regulates the ground in a duty cycle fashion, just like an electronic distributor breaks the coil ground via a transistor. This helps maintain the proper voltage for the 'new' ECU. It (alternator) must have 2 isolated fields and a good ground plane to mount the metal VR case to.​
 
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