Steers like Crap

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tooslow

tooslow

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I converted to a Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box but there is always play in the steering and the wide tires track the pavement. I am running 275/55/18 front Goodyear performance tiresI do 140 mph and lots of 100 mph runs so I need to figure out something different . I have read that not everyone loves there Flaming river steering box . not a slam dunk
All suspension using polyurethane bushings, new ball joints, new upper control arms from Performance suspension, sway bar , ect....

I have had it aligned 3x , different formulas , stock is the best
I am constantly adjusting The Flaming river gear box, always has play. I wish I bought a 20:1 vs a 16:1 because it is so had to turn at a stand still plus I think the car would be more stable at speed
I am going back to a Power steering set up
I considered rack and pinion but i read it sucks for a 69 Cuda, opinions welcome .
Rack n Pinion is unbelievably awesome on my Mustang !!!
Can someone recommend a good tight power steering set up or possibly a GOOD racj n pinion set-up

Thx
 
I'm just gonna say "it ain't the steering box." Tires following the road certainly is not the box

What have you done to troubleshoot the problem? My method (requires 2 people) is to have someone wiggle/ move the wheel some amount, which may have to change during the process, and watch the shafts/ linkages/ components from end-to-end looking for play. EVERYwhere. Play in the coupler, the splines, bearing radial as well as axial play, ball socket play in every rod end and the ball joints. Wheel bearings. And of course the tires themselves. And don't forget the steering box mounting bolts or for that matter any other frame/ steel/ structural member. Pay particular attention to the idler arm.

Have you read up/ done tests on "bump steer?" Without knowing the suspension height this might be a lot of the issue.
 
Get an OEM manual 20:1 box from Firm Feel. I have 3 of their rebuilds and they are top notch. They are expensive but you will be done. Is you K frame flexing?
 
67Dart273 said:
I'm just gonna say "it ain't the steering box." Tires following the road certainly is not the box

What have you done to troubleshoot the problem? My method (requires 2 people) is to have someone wiggle/ move the wheel some amount, which may have to change during the process, and watch the shafts/ linkages/ components from end-to-end looking for play. EVERYwhere. Play in the coupler, the splines, bearing radial as well as axial play, ball socket play in every rod end and the ball joints. Wheel bearings. And of course the tires themselves. And don't forget the steering box mounting bolts or for that matter any other frame/ steel/ structural member.
Click to expand...

It can also be alignment. Having someone really good can make all the difference.
 
It's your scrub radius, combined with the amount of rubber flat to the road, and possible the lack of caster.
But if you have increased your caster, by any means, then you have tweaked the camber curves. So any change in bounce/jounce will change the camber, which will change the toe, which will cause the car to self-steer. You need to fix this.
 
Put thinner tires on the front...... you see a big difference !! I changed the wide tires I had on my mustang for the same reason ! Problem solved for me !
 
66fs said:
Get an OEM manual 20:1 box from Firm Feel. I have 3 of their rebuilds and they are top notch. They are expensive but you will be done. Is you K frame flexing?
Click to expand...
Get under there and check this....my 65 developed cracks in the box mount. Another K fixed this.
 
tooslow said:
I converted to a Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box but there is always play in the steering and the wide tires track the pavement. I am running 275/55/18 front Goodyear performance tiresI do 140 mph and lots of 100 mph runs so I need to figure out something different . I have read that not everyone loves there Flaming river steering box . not a slam dunk
All suspension using polyurethane bushings, new ball joints, new upper control arms from Performance suspension, sway bar , ect....

I have had it aligned 3x , different formulas , stock is the best
I am constantly adjusting The Flaming river gear box, always has play. I wish I bought a 20:1 vs a 16:1 because it is so had to turn at a stand still plus I think the car would be more stable at speed
I am going back to a Power steering set up
I considered rack and pinion but i read it sucks for a 69 Cuda, opinions welcome .
Rack n Pinion is unbelievably awesome on my Mustang !!!
Can someone recommend a good tight power steering set up or possibly a GOOD racj n pinion set-up

Thx
Click to expand...

Uh, did you say “stock is the best” alignment?

Because factory alignment specs are 100% wrong for radial tires. The worst. They’re even worse for wide front tires.

I’ve been running 275/35/18’s on the front of my Duster for years with a 16:1 Flaming River steering box. You need a bunch of positive caster to offset the effects of the wider front tires. I run +6.5* of caster on mine.

And just get the idea of a rack and pinion out of your head, unless you’re going to spend $5k and replace the whole front suspension with an RMS or HemiDenny conversion. There is no rack and pinion conversion that will work with your stock K frame and suspension that isn’t a total suspension geometry nightmare.
 
Did you check the lower control arm mounts in the K frame for cracks? Thay can be very hard to spot.
 
67Dart273 said:
I'm just gonna say "it ain't the steering box." Tires following the road certainly is not the box

What have you done to troubleshoot the problem? My method (requires 2 people) is to have someone wiggle/ move the wheel some amount, which may have to change during the process, and watch the shafts/ linkages/ components from end-to-end looking for play. EVERYwhere. Play in the coupler, the splines, bearing radial as well as axial play, ball socket play in every rod end and the ball joints. Wheel bearings. And of course the tires themselves. And don't forget the steering box mounting bolts or for that matter any other frame/ steel/ structural member. Pay particular attention to the idler arm.

Have you read up/ done tests on "bump steer?" Without knowing the suspension height this might be a lot of the issue.
Click to expand...
there is play in the steering box , only , not the suspension
constantly correcting
 
66fs said:
Get an OEM manual 20:1 box from Firm Feel. I have 3 of their rebuilds and they are top notch. They are expensive but you will be done. Is you K frame flexing?
Click to expand...
Thx
Need to check the K frame , good idea, i can see the play in the steering box , constantly have to adjust
I an going to check out the 20:1 firm feel
 
AJ/FormS said:
It's your scrub radius, combined with the amount of rubber flat to the road, and possible the lack of caster.
But if you have increased your caster, by any means, then you have tweaked the camber curves. So any change in bounce/jounce will change the camber, which will change the toe, which will cause the car to self-steer. You need to fix this.
Click to expand...
Thx
Good stuff, need to look into this plus I am going to check into a Firm Feel 20:1 and ditch the Flaming River.
 
tooslow said:
there is play in the steering box , only , not the suspension
constantly correcting
Click to expand...

All worm and ball steering boxes have a small, on center, “dead spot”. It is part of their design and construction. It should be relatively small, but it will never be like a rack and pinion, because it ISN’T one.
tooslow said:
Thx
Need to check the K frame , good idea, i can see the play in the steering box , constantly have to adjust
I an going to check out the 20:1 firm feel
Click to expand...

You should definitely check the K frame and steering box mount for cracks. My original K frame had cracked the welds going around the steering mount, which caused the entire steering box to move when the wheels were being turned. Factory welds were pretty poor in some cases.

But, you still need a modern alignment. And for the record, you should not be turning the wheels when at a standstill. That’s called “dry steering”, and it contributes a lot to both tire and steering component wear. It’s a bad habit usually developed by people with smaller vehicles and power steering. They can’t feel all the strain they’re putting on the steering, so they assume it’s no big deal. It’s bad practice, and something you’re trained not to do if you drive large vehicles. Remember that when you’re cranking and heaving on that steering wheel that the wheels and steering components are getting 16x that force!

If you want 20:1 that’s fine, but if you want 20:1 because it’s hard to turn the wheels at a stop you’re doing it for the wrong reason. 275’s will always be hard to turn at a stop. If you increase the ratio or go to power steering all it does is take the effort off the steering wheel, it still exerts the same amount of force on your tires, tie rod ends, pitman and idler.

tooslow said:
Firm Feel has a sector support Bearing also
Click to expand...

They do, and it’s nice, but it’s not going to make up for the other issues mentioned here already. You need a proper alignment, you need to check for damage to the K frame, and you need to stop dry steering.
 
Here are some pictures as an example of the kind of things to look for with the K frame. As usual I started taking pictures after I had already started fixing stuff so the cracks aren't as obvious as they could have been, but the red arrows all indicate the ends of cracks. On this K more than 50% of the welds holding the steering box mount, and the bracket itself, were cracked.

This was the worst. I already had clamped and tacked it, but the entire mount between the arrows was broken free. When the wheels were turned this section would lift up and the gap would be like a 1/4" between the mount and the K frame.
IMG_3517.jpeg


The end of the steering box mount and engine mount. Again, cracked between the arrows.
IMG_3520.jpeg


This one is easier to see. The whole steering box bracket was cracked all the way through.
IMG_3523.jpeg

Close up showing it's actually displaced.
IMG_3527.jpeg


The factory welds were piss poor, but with the car at a stand still it was a great demonstration of how much force dry steering puts on the components. The whole steering box was flexing back and forth, pulling the mount off the K by a good 1/4", when the steering wheel was being turned before the wheels even moved. That was with 225/60/15's on the car. It takes a lot of force to dry steer 275's, it will wear stuff out in no time at all.
 
don't ignore idler mount on k-frame either.
"Square" shoulders on tires can contribute to "nibbling" on road seams. Back when we had nothing but bias, and bias-belted tires in the 60''s and early 70''s we REALLY had to deal with that nibbling problem. The advent of wider, low profile tires did nothing to help that problem.
I'd double check your lower ball-joints, too. I've seen brand new lowers with excessive slop in them. Also if any of your steering linkage ball joints have ANY play in them, your toe will be changing. You should NEVER have toe-out. I like to run a little toe-in, so at worst you'll have zero at speed.
I agree with posters, don't expect rack & pinion road feel.
 
tooslow said:
Thx
Need to check the K frame , good idea, i can see the play in the steering box , constantly have to adjust
I an going to check out the 20:1 firm feel
Click to expand...
Just exactly how are you adjusting it. And yeh, this is an important question.......................
 
rustycowll69 said:
don't ignore idler mount on k-frame either.
"Square" shoulders on tires can contribute to "nibbling" on uroad seams. Back when we had nothing but bias, and bias-belted tires in the 60''s and early 70''s we REALLY had to deal with that nibbling problem. The advent of wider, low profile tires did nothing to help that problem.
I'd double check your lower ball-joints, too. I've seen brand new lowers with excessive slop in them. Also if any of your steering linkage ball joints have ANY play in them, your toe will be changing. You should NEVER have toe-out. I like to run a little toe-in, so at worst you'll have zero at speed.
I agree with posters, don't expect rack & pinion road feel.
Click to expand...

Yeah definitely, proper alignment specs are critical. Look at the alignment specs on modern cars that run larger diameter rims, they all have large positive caster numbers. That’s not by accident.

And as always, just because something is new doesn’t necessarily means it’s good. I’ve seen some really terrible brand new Moog ball joints, their quality control these days is terrible.

RustyRatRod said:
A brand new one? No way. That beeotch wouldda got sent back if it was mine.
Click to expand...

They can only be bench adjusted from the factory. They should be close, but a fine tuning shouldn’t be cause for sending it back. Guy on the assembly line misses the adjustment by half a turn and you send back an otherwise perfectly fine steering box?

Besides, you’re gonna have to adjust it at some point. Better to be aware of the proper procedure.

I do seem to recall a member here having some issues with PST about sending a box back because he adjusted it, but PST later clarified that adjusting the box may be necessary and the reason they didn’t take the box back was because the member had clearanced the case. That’s here...

PST steering boxes

And several members said they needed to fine tune the adjustment on those steering boxes as well.
 
tooslow said:
there is play in the steering box , only , not the suspension
constantly correcting
Click to expand...
is your steering box in the middle from stop to stop? every steering box has play if you leave the center! remove pitman or to tie rods to check.
 
72bluNblu said:
All worm and ball steering boxes have a small, on center, “dead spot”. It is part of their design and construction. It should be relatively small, but it will never be like a rack and pinion, because it ISN’T one.


You should definitely check the K frame and steering box mount for cracks. My original K frame had cracked the welds going around the steering mount, which caused the entire steering box to move when the wheels were being turned. Factory welds were pretty poor in some cases.

But, you still need a modern alignment. And for the record, you should not be turning the wheels when at a standstill. That’s called “dry steering”, and it contributes a lot to both tire and steering component wear. It’s a bad habit usually developed by people with smaller vehicles and power steering. They can’t feel all the strain they’re putting on the steering, so they assume it’s no big deal. It’s bad practice, and something you’re trained not to do if you drive large vehicles. Remember that when you’re cranking and heaving on that steering wheel that the wheels and steering components are getting 16x that force!

If you want 20:1 that’s fine, but if you want 20:1 because it’s hard to turn the wheels at a stop you’re doing it for the wrong reason. 275’s will always be hard to turn at a stop. If you increase the ratio or go to power steering all it does is take the effort off the steering wheel, it still exerts the same amount of force on your tires, tie rod ends, pitman and idler.



They do, and it’s nice, but it’s not going to make up for the other issues mentioned here already. You need a proper alignment, you need to check for damage to the K frame, and you need to stop dry steering.
Click to expand...
 
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