Titanium spring retainers

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MOPARMAGA

MOPARMAGA

" The other hard member"
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Hey guys I'm just wondering if the titanium spring retainers are worth the extra money?
And if it would be a 1 time purchase.
I'm guessing with the weight savings there's a little more power ?
Thanks !
 
Yes. But I love to spend other people’s money. At any rate, any weight savings on the valve side of the system is a big deal. Just machine a few extra sets of heads to get the $$$$$$$$.
 
yellow rose said:
Yes. But I love to spend other people’s money. At any rate, any weight savings on the valve side of the system is a big deal. Just machine a few extra sets of heads to get the $$$$$$$$.
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Thanks, yes I can't wait to start machining
 
If you want the best quality retainers you can buy then by all means go titanium. It could very well be the last retainers you have to purchase. I am a lover of light strong valve train components especially when high RPMs are the goal. But for standard high performance and costs are a consideration then go chromoly.
 
It’s not a power maker but a power releaser. Yes there’s power in it’s use. Anytime you can increase the engines operating abilities with things like this, it’s a win win, except your wallet... LOL!

I have Ti valves. The weight savings over the standard material is amazing. The super light weight is less the engine has to move around. This makes it easier for the engine to do what it is supposed to do. This frees up power otherwise wasted in moving the part.

The more you can do this over the entire engine, the easier it is to get the engine to release all of the potential power it can make.
 
Fun fact I purchased a 1969 340 that was built in Honolulu speed shop and built to race at the local drag strip. It came back from the islands with a navy soldier who had more money than interest in the sport I purchased the whole 340 swinger for $500 in 1980 with a converter problem and the owner just wanted to bail on it. There's a lot more to the story but where I'm going is it had brand new crane doubles valve springs and aluminum retainers even with factory valve rocker arm assemblies that motor seem to have an unlimited RPM I always contributed part of that to those ridiculously light retainers.
 
Yes it frees up power but to me it's about inertia, the lighter the valve train component the easier it is to switch directions in its motion a heavier part has more inertia and will want to keep moving in the direction that it sent, as you lighten the components to that transition seems to be more stable and easier to control! I know all you engine builders know that but I thought it was worth mentioning. Steve Dulcich preached that back in the day and I'm a believer, along with good springs good strong useful RPMs have been achieved in my 340s
 
K.O. SWINGER said:
Yes it frees up power but to me it's about inertia, the lighter the valve train component the easier it is to switch directions in its motion a heavier part has more inertia and will want to keep moving in the direction that it sent, as you lighten the components to that transition seems to be more stable and easier to control! I know all you engine builders know that but I thought it was worth mentioning.
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Worth mentioning yes, but I figured that was understood and part of the engine moving parts. The switching of direction is the valve springs job. Not the reciprocating assemblies job, which is where a lot of the power loss is. With precise & efficient valve events, the engine runs peak. Make it easier to open, less energy is wasted in muscling the valve up. There is zero effort by the rotating assembly in closing the valve.

All in all, this practice is a good one to follow. Cost is another issue. I’m not according g a super light weight crank in a grocery getter but that would be interesting none the less. LOL! Grand-ma’s 318 takes down a Hellcat in a chase for the last gallon of milk & eggs.
 
For a given cam, all else being equal, can you useless spring rate if you have titanium valves and retainers? Seems like you'd need less spring to control the valve which should help power and longevity.
 
gzig5 said:
For a given cam, all else being equal, can you useless spring rate if you have titanium valves and retainers? Seems like you'd need less spring to control the valve which should help power and longevity.
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Yes, but you have to have access to some really fancy equipment and information to know exactly where you may be getting into valve float and how much less pressure & rate you'll need with lighter valve train parts, or how much higher you can rev the engine with the same springs. Then there is the question if the lighter weight is worth the trouble for durability or if the engine actually benefits from more rpm.

You can have valve float without ever realizing it, until something breaks. If the engine is nosing over from valve float, it already started way before that.

You can also consider beehive or ovate springs, which have much smaller and lighter steel retainers. There are steel retainers that have been lightened as well.
 
Here is an example of near disaster I experienced. "Stock class" style cam with .474" lift but with very fast opening rates. Spring pressures were about 160-180 seat/360-380 open with Schubeck/Smith composite puck hydraulic lifters. Other retainers were intact, but pretty beat up. I upped the spring pressures to about 200/400 and the problem went away and valve adjustment remained more consistent between adjustments.

I just had to check the spring pressures between seasons to maintain the "safer", higher pressures.

As for aluminum retainers.....put them in the aluminum recycling bin!

Retainer breakage 001.JPG


Retainer breakage 002.JPG


Retainer breakage 003.JPG
 
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Yeah now I can see great reasons to run them, matter of forgotten & just remembered fact, yellow rose had some titanium valves laying around & those were "holy ****" weight savings. I think I'll buy the titanium. Thanks guys !
 
Locomotion said:
Here is an example of near disaster I experienced. "Stock class" style cam with .474" lift but with very fast opening rates. Spring pressures were about 160-180 seat/360-380 open with Schubeck/Smith composite puck hydraulic lifters. Other retainers were intact, but pretty beat up. I upped the spring pressures to about 200/400 and the problem went away and valve adjustment remained more consistent between adjustments.

As for aluminum retainers.....put them in the aluminum recycling bin!

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Wow, yikes...thanks for posting that
 
rumblefish360 said:
Worth mentioning yes, but I figured that was understood and part of the engine moving parts. The switching of direction is the valve springs job. Not the reciprocating assemblies job, which is where a lot of the power loss is. With precise & efficient valve events, the engine runs peak. Make it easier to open, less energy is wasted in muscling the valve up. There is zero effort by the rotating assembly in closing the valve.

All in all, this practice is a good one to follow. Cost is another issue. I’m not according g a super light weight crank in a grocery getter but that would be interesting none the less. LOL! Grand-ma’s 318 takes down a Hellcat in a chase for the last gallon of milk & eggs.
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On the serious side of my response, I was leaning towards the tool steel retainers and conical springs. The tool steel retainers are somewhere in the neighborhood of $175 and the titanium retainers are in the $225-$250 range if my rusty old brain is squeaking along correctly. I haven't even talked to my machinist about valves yet.

COMP Cams 7228-16 COMP Cams Valve Springs | Summit Racing

COMP Cams 1787-16 COMP Cams Steel Valve Spring Retainers | Summit Racing


 
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Locomotion said:
Here is an example of near disaster I experienced. "Stock class" style cam with .474" lift but with very fast opening rates. Spring pressures were about 160-180 seat/360-380 open with Schubeck/Smith composite puck hydraulic lifters. Other retainers were intact, but pretty beat up. I upped the spring pressures to about 200/400 and the problem went away and valve adjustment remained more consistent between adjustments.

I just had to check the spring pressures between seasons to maintain the "safer", higher pressures.

As for aluminum retainers.....put them in the aluminum recycling bin!

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If you are hurting valve train the first thing to do is up the pressure just like you did. I’ve seen more valve train death from losing spring load than I ever have from being over sprung.

To really dig the pepper out of the fly poop you really need access to (or if you are J.R. Gottrocks you can just buy one but this dirt port white boy ain’t got that kind of cabbage) a spintron so you can actually test what you are doing.

I was hoping that by now the spintron would be about as common as an engine Dyno, but it ain’t happened yet.
 
In no way was I advocating running aluminum retainers definitely not worth the risk. And they weren't my choice the motor came that way. I was just noting that weight of a retainer can add to or take away from peak RPM jmo
 
Here's another question for the guys who've done or know, I was looking at titanium valves also...this is down the road but I'm not finding a 2.19 for my trick flows can the original seat be cut to fit 2.20 valves ?
 
From what I understand and read titanium retainers have a limited lifespan unlike steel retainers. They need to be changed out before the fatigue and fail. Professional stock and super stock racers follow a maintenance plan to prevent failure and change out parts. Not worth a dropped valve on a street motor in my opinion. You can easily make the maximum horsepower of a passenger car block with steel retainers.
 
ch1ll said:
From what I understand and read titanium retainers have a limited lifespan unlike steel retainers. They need to be changed out before the fatigue and fail. Professional stock and super stock racers follow a maintenance plan to prevent failure and change out parts. Not worth a dropped valve on a street motor in my opinion. You can easily make the maximum horsepower of a passenger car block with steel retainers.
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Yeah that's true.. Making max power with a pass car block, I was just looking for a very long lasting easier effort max hp engine.
 
Locomotion said:
Here is an example of near disaster I experienced. "Stock class" style cam with .474" lift but with very fast opening rates. Spring pressures were about 160-180 seat/360-380 open with Schubeck/Smith composite puck hydraulic lifters. Other retainers were intact, but pretty beat up. I upped the spring pressures to about 200/400 and the problem went away and valve adjustment remained more consistent between adjustments.

I just had to check the spring pressures between seasons to maintain the "safer", higher pressures.

As for aluminum retainers.....put them in the aluminum recycling bin!

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That was a close call!

Do you need to run tool steel retainers with 200/400 spring pressures?
 
440 Mike said:
That was a close call!

Do you need to run tool steel retainers with 200/400 spring pressures?
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They are not tool steel, just 10* locks. I don't know at what point tool steel retainers are recommended, but some roller cam pressures can be around 1000 lbs. Regardless of what part you strengthen, the weakest link will eventually show up. Valve float will find it much sooner.
 
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