Coolant flow

72bluNblu said
So, you learned what you're preaching 30+ years ago, but I'm the one that won't learn? You're the one flipping out because someone is questioning you. All I've said is that a 160°-180° mandatory operating temperature isn't best for every build, and it's not. I've never even said that 190°-200° is best for maximum performance, just that some engines are built to operate that way. Heck I didn't even say it was best for everyone, because that's not true either. But what you're suggesting is only true for a small niche of engine builds.

I certainly don't need you to "hold my hand". I've been working on cars since before I could drive, which is over 3 decades now. I definitely don't know everything (neither do you), and what works "in theory" and in the real world can be different, that's true. But you're the one that says things like "I bet I could make 5 pretty simple changes and you’d make more power and it would run better at 160." That's a direct quote, by the way, you said it. But when I ask what those changes would be, well, crickets, every single time. If it's so simple, I'd bet you could tell me those changes in FAR less time than you've spent arguing with me here. Because this isn't the first time.

But you'd rather grandstand than actually explain, and rather call names than help. Maybe the way you build engines works best with a 160° operating temperature, but you didn't build every engine out there, and what you're pushing isn't true for every engine out there. Your tuning advice caters to a very narrow niche of engines. That's been my point all along. Every time you're pressed, you add more requirements to being able to run best at those temperatures.

If what you claim is so easy and so obvious, shoot me a PM, ask the questions about my build you need to know, and give your response when I give you that info. I have all the info you'd need. You've spent way more time calling me names than it would take to do that. If you're that sure you're right put your money where your mouth is. If I can make those changes without spending thousands of dollars I'll make them, and if you're right I'll have no problem saying that. You keep saying I'm the one that won't learn, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Yeah, yeah, gaslight, gaslight, blah blah. I'm a literalist and a contrarian because I don't agree with you. Sure.

Chrysler spends a crap ton of money, time and research to build cooling systems for the GenIII to run at 200°. They put way more time and effort into doing that than anybody on this board, and have more experience and knowledge doing it too. And I dunno about you, but 700-800 hp out of a 6.2L engine anybody can easily drive on the street is pretty good performance and drivability. So, yeah, the OEM's put together cooling systems with the goal of running 200° everyday, and spent millions to do it. And don't give me that smog engine nonsense, because with the current ECU's, fuel injection, ECU controlled timing, new catalytic converters etc those engines could be tuned to pass smog running a 180° operating temp IF that was best for those builds.

Most of the threads on here are about "how not to overheat". Cars with issues, not being able to maintain any temperature in normal conditions. And then the old drag racers chime in and say how everything over 160° is dumb. And they go fast, so everyone thinks that's the only way.

As I explained before, my cooling system is more than capable of maintaining 180°, I've run it that way. The drivability of my car at or below that temperature is not as good as it is at 200°, which my cooling system also has no issue maintaining. And no, I didn't notice any big drop off in performance either. Maybe there is some flaw in my engine build or tune that is causing that, I've never claimed my build or tune was perfect. Quite the opposite, I'm sure it's not.

These cars ran at 190°+ from the factory. They were fine that way for decades. Modern cars run that way and do it for hundreds of thousands of miles. If you're not running the razor's edge on detonation and tuning for a dyno, you don't need to be at 160°. Or even 180°. But the all the guys that "know best" say that's the way it has to be for everyone, which is also why we have dozens of threads with guys saying their car runs "hot" when it fact it's just running at the temperature the factory intended.

Well, that and people not understanding pulley ratio's, high output water pumps, or how many CFM's of air their fan has to realistically move to cool their car. Because most of the threads I've seen with actual cooling issues are just mismatched components.

I have been doing and PROVING cooler engine temperatures make more power and run better. I learn new things every day, and I prove things out every day.

Early on, I gave two opposing examples of coolant temperatures for STREET DRIVEN CARS. Evidently you skim over what I write to try and make your points (I do that occasionally so that is what it is).

Once example was Pro Stock (and some other eliminators) where they CHILL the engines down to very cold temperatures and when they finish a pass they are 120 degrees or less. Does it make more power? Hell yes, or they wouldn‘t do it. Does it make sense for a bracket car? Not even close. You don’t have time to chill the engine between rounds and you have to tow to the starting line and tow it back. That’s a royal PITA. So CHILLING an engine for most isn’t feasible. That doesn’t change the FACT that they would make more power. It in fact PROVES out the FACT that cooler engine temperatures make more power.

The other example I used was NASCAR Cup type engines. They are the other extreme. In order to run all day at WOT (or near WOT and certainly running the vast majority of the time at or above peak torque) and keep the engine temperature at say…180 it would be incredibly difficult to build a cooling system to dissipate that kind of heat for that long (and dealing with ambient temperatures at the track surface that can be 120 degrees or more) just due to the size of the equipment.

And to fit that HUGE heat exchanger (radiator) and the associated parts would absolutely KILL any aero package to the point the car wouldn’t be competitive. Not even close. So fitting the cooling system in the car AND not compromising the aero package (or limiting the compromise as best as can be done) is what matters.

So they deal with higher than optimal coolant temperatures and give up some power in order to gain (a big gain) in aerodynamics. It’s that simple really.

What we are discussing falls between those two extremes.

What the OEM does for coolant temperatures has ZERO to do with HORSEPOWER and has everything to do with fitting a cooling system in their box (chassis) and meeting ever increasing bullshit emissions standards. If they give up 30, 40 or even 50 horsepower they don’t give a **** because they know that 98% of what they sell will NEVER see WOT.

Claiming that the “new” Hemi has X coolant temperatures and extrapolating that to the discussion here is silly at best. What the OEM’s do (and the regulations they have to deal with) doesn’t affect what we do here.

You can continue to argue for hotter coolant temperatures. I’m sure you will. But the evidence and PROOF is on my side.

Its sad you expect me to hold your hand and walk you through it.

If I do produce a video (probably 5 or 6 of them so its not one long video) you wouldn’t watch it anyway.

I have made several short videos of why to NOT lock out a distributor and guys STILL argue for that stupidity.

It’s the same with coolant temperatures, power valve timing, vacuum advance use and a host of other myths that have been perpetuated along by ignorance and sometimes malice.