The 40 years must have affected my eyesight as well Mike, I didn't even see professor fate's posting about the Reed and Prince...LOL. I stumbled onto one of their fastener's on an old BLH 2,000 ton aluminum extrusion press back in the 80's. I had to look it up in a fastener catalog to find out what the heck it was. Now you can type it into the internet and zing there it is.