I have a 74 Dart Custom that is having steering issues. All ball joints tie rods etc. have been checked by myself and 2 mechanics and all are good there is only slight play in one upper control arm bushing. I have replaced the wheel bearings but one may be a little tight. When driving the car the steering wheel tends to be at 45 degree angle but while driving down the highway at times typically when hitting a bump the steering will jar hard to the one side after pulling it back (it has jarred more then once in a 10 second period at times) the steering wheel tends to straighten out and drive perfectly straight down the road in a straight position (slight pull to the left but very slight) but then after 20+ second the wheel will slowly need to be put back at the 45 to keep straight but it is gradual not sudden as when the car jerks to the side. I have had 2 front end allignments done recently the second one because a 92 stealth hit my front left tire. But the car was doing this before just not nearly as bad. The only thing I can think of is rebuilding the steering box but its 90$ for parts or 290$ for a rebuilt box and it looks like a pain to rebuild or change (have pulled a few to sell just never installed one) I have 2 of these cars both the steering wheels are on 45's I am worried if this has happened to one the other is not far behind. Both cars are daily drivers and drive 140km's a day to work and back and my wife and kids ride in them since they are my only cars at the time so I need it fixed properly and hopefully not to expensively.
Need help steering box? Car out of commission
- Thread starter Dan201
- Start date
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player1up
Well-Known Member
Manual or power steering, I'm guessing power.
If you've had 2 alignments done and the steering wheel is 45* off, that's a problem. Sounds like you may have a box issue, but you'll need to verify exactly where the "slack" is.
I'm rephrasing this to make sure I understand the issue. When you are holding the wheel at 45* you have taken the slack out in one direction, as soon as you hit a bump, the tires kick the slack to the opposite steering gear face or tie rod ends and you have to yank the wheel to take up the slack and bring it back straight
You can check the play by turning the steering wheel and see how far it moves before turning the tires.
Method: Hood up, drivers window open, engine off, steering wheel unlocked. ( with the engine off the tires wont want to move but if there is play in the box, you will be able to identify it ) Reach through the window and turn the wheel while standing outside of the car. If the steering wheel moves more than "a little", it will need to be replaced or rebuilt.
You can also test this by grabbing the steering coupler in the engine bay and turning it by hand. This will tell if the play is in the box or tie rods (if you can see the centerlink move with the pitman arm.
As for rebuilding the box, I've done some pretty in depth repairs before but I don't think I would attempt to rebuild it. Too many variables like gear depth and preload and things on something as important as steering, but maybe I'm just a wuss.
If you've had 2 alignments done and the steering wheel is 45* off, that's a problem. Sounds like you may have a box issue, but you'll need to verify exactly where the "slack" is.
I'm rephrasing this to make sure I understand the issue. When you are holding the wheel at 45* you have taken the slack out in one direction, as soon as you hit a bump, the tires kick the slack to the opposite steering gear face or tie rod ends and you have to yank the wheel to take up the slack and bring it back straight
You can check the play by turning the steering wheel and see how far it moves before turning the tires.
Method: Hood up, drivers window open, engine off, steering wheel unlocked. ( with the engine off the tires wont want to move but if there is play in the box, you will be able to identify it ) Reach through the window and turn the wheel while standing outside of the car. If the steering wheel moves more than "a little", it will need to be replaced or rebuilt.
You can also test this by grabbing the steering coupler in the engine bay and turning it by hand. This will tell if the play is in the box or tie rods (if you can see the centerlink move with the pitman arm.
As for rebuilding the box, I've done some pretty in depth repairs before but I don't think I would attempt to rebuild it. Too many variables like gear depth and preload and things on something as important as steering, but maybe I'm just a wuss.
There is about an 1/8 of a turn with the steering wheel without movement of the tires and it looks to be coming from the box with the car off haven't tested with it running. It feels almost like it is jumping teeth when driving it but then the way it slowely goes back to being tilted wouldn't make sense if it is jumping teeth. I am going to try and get underneath it today and see what I can find out about things being oblonged I will look for wear marks on the lca where it mounts to the frame. Thanks for the advice.
Have you tried to adjust the "worm gear"?
I have adjusted a few boxes on other makes, I beleive mopar would be the same. With the bolt on the top. Loosen the nut and turn the center bolt in. You usually can take out most of the play. If not check the bolt for wear and replace if necessary.
Of course these adjustments are good only if your box is mounted securely.
I have adjusted a few boxes on other makes, I beleive mopar would be the same. With the bolt on the top. Loosen the nut and turn the center bolt in. You usually can take out most of the play. If not check the bolt for wear and replace if necessary.
Of course these adjustments are good only if your box is mounted securely.
GTGrinly
Well-Known Member
I remember someone else having a problem similar and they found out the box itself was loose...
csx452
Well-Known Member
Sounds like more of an issue than the worm gear, but you should check it anyway. Also check the bolts holding the steering box on as stated above. A good alignment shop should have picked up on where the slop is and not done the alignment without the proper repaies being done first. Does anyone on here know a good shop in his area?
csx452
Well-Known Member
Another thing to check would be where the torsion bars mount in back. I had a 68 GTS bavk in the 70s. One of the bushings was bad and I didn't know it. Eventually it wore an oblong hole and the bushing disintegrated. That's when the fun began. I had a similiar problem then to what you have now.
I had the steering coupler start to seperate in the staging lanes. The steering shaft can retract due to its collapsable design. It has two nylon plugs to prevent it, but they can shear off. Check to make sure the coupler is not coming apart.
Thanks for all the advice. The 2 front end alignments were done at 2 different shops which supposedly specialized in old cars. Not that I don't trust them just had my fair share of bad mechanics in the past ( I only use them for front end alignments and safeties now.)
player1up
Well-Known Member
When I first read that I thought 1/8 of an inch isn't bad... OH 1/8 of a turn, That's a big problem. My guess would be that it's not jumping a tooth but what you are feeling is the "slap" in the gear faces, kinda like a muffled clunk sound.
If it were skipping a tooth the steering wheel would be out worse and worse every time it skipped, not go back to where it was.
Sounds like you may need a helper to saw the steering wheel while you look at the moving parts.
toplscuda
Well-Known Member
Procedure for adjusting the box. It will give you an idea if it is the problem.
The general adjustment procedure for any recirculating-ball steering gear is:
1. Center the steering.
2. Loosen the sector shaft adjuster 1-2 turns and snug the locknut.
3. Loosen the input shaft adjuster locknut.
4. While rocking the input shaft by hand, tighten the input shaft adjuster until all of the axial backlash disappears.
5. Tighten the input shaft adjuster locknut while holding the adjuster in position.
6. Loosen the sector shaft locknut 3-4 turns.
7. While rocking the input shaft by hand, tighten the sector shaft adjuster until the backlash *just* disappears. To be safe, leave a tiny amount of backlash.
8. Tighten the sector shaft adjuster locknut while holding the adjuster in position.
9. Check the backlash throughout the full steering range. You can do this with the wheels lifted off the ground and rocking the input shaft while feeling for movement in the sector shaft. There should be only slight backlash at most. If there is more, the sector shaft bearings and/or ballscrew mechanism may be worn.
This procedure works regardless of manual or power assist, or brand. When working with a power steering gear, be careful to feel for the mechanical backlash, and ignore the movement of the valve mechanism (which has a "springy" feel, as opposed to the "solid" feel of the gear backlash).
Try the adjustment procedure before removing or condemning the steering gear. You could save yourself a lot of work and expense.
Talked to the mechanic that did the first front end alignment apperently the upper control arm bushings are worn out in the middle and so are the lowers along with he says the struts are starting to go and the gearbox but I did tighten the gearbox and it is firm now with no play but has accentrated the problem with the cars sudden pull I also notice it started dragging the one tire after hitting a manhole and the top of the tire has moved out. Guess it was my bad for trusting the mechanics would actually tell me if there was something wrong there when they were working in there. Oh well car is getting parked for a while I might try marking the bolts and changing the bushings but I imagine the front end alignment will be off and I need to quit sinking money into cars. Thanks for all the help
caferacerx
BAND MEMBER
a reputable shop would not have charged you for an alignment on a car that needed parts replaced, fortunately none of it is that hard to do, just go over the whole front suspension, upper & lower control arm bushings, tie rods, upper & lower ball joints, pitman & idler arm, strut rod bushing's, and replace anything that is worn out or questionable with the best quality parts you can find, (moog are not bad) then get it aligned, it may cost you a few $$$ but it will be more than worth it to have a safe car that you enjoy driving again
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
So why did he even do the alignment? I wouldn't go back to that guy.
When I took my Barracuda in for an alignment the mechanic inspected the front end and said "Your lower driver side ball joint is bad" and told me they wouldn't align the car until it was replaced.
Basically you got ripped off . Your mechanic knew your front end needed a rebuild and the alignment wouldn't hold but he did the work and charged you for it anyway.
onig
I love driving my BBD
Where did you get the alignment done?
gt
gt
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
Well along with all the advice you have so far...pointing at the shop that did the alignment..... the following questions apply
if it's power steering, did you have this issue BEFORE he did the alignment? IF NOT mr smartypants mechanic may have played with your PS valve adjustment to get your wheel straight. A clear sign that he is an idiot
if you took it in for that reason and he is licensed mechanic then he is legally OBLIGATED to tell you that your parts are worn and potentially dangerous. NOT telling you can bring legal action to his doorstep.
Doing an alignment with sloppy FE parts is not only foolish it is VERY DANGEROUS!! UNLESS you told him to do it anyway and for that he would have asked you to sign a release....but in this sit the parts must be operational and only in an " above marginal " state..... if you steering was hosed on the way in.... he was clearly negligent and you have a bit of work to do and some money to spend on new FE parts.....
IF your steering is manual.... you have a very sloppy FE and need to replace pretty much everything .....although if the condition is as bad as you say ONE of the parts is likely in obvious poor condition..... I had a tie rod end that used to lock up and seemed fine until you went 10+ feet down a semi bumpy road...then it was like having NO steering
good luck
if it's power steering, did you have this issue BEFORE he did the alignment? IF NOT mr smartypants mechanic may have played with your PS valve adjustment to get your wheel straight. A clear sign that he is an idiot
if you took it in for that reason and he is licensed mechanic then he is legally OBLIGATED to tell you that your parts are worn and potentially dangerous. NOT telling you can bring legal action to his doorstep.
Doing an alignment with sloppy FE parts is not only foolish it is VERY DANGEROUS!! UNLESS you told him to do it anyway and for that he would have asked you to sign a release....but in this sit the parts must be operational and only in an " above marginal " state..... if you steering was hosed on the way in.... he was clearly negligent and you have a bit of work to do and some money to spend on new FE parts.....
IF your steering is manual.... you have a very sloppy FE and need to replace pretty much everything .....although if the condition is as bad as you say ONE of the parts is likely in obvious poor condition..... I had a tie rod end that used to lock up and seemed fine until you went 10+ feet down a semi bumpy road...then it was like having NO steering
good luck
66cuda
2011Armada K of C 1st PL
DId I see you say "STRUT"...... like no shocks? in 74? did they even have struts on domestics in 74? Pretty sure they still used SHOCKS..... so if he told you the struts were bad.....his name might be GOOBER PYLE
I had the alignments done at a (classic mechanic) called Tiny's in Ingersoll (first and last time he will ever be used) and a shop in London near Argyle mall but I would have to look up the name (also first and last time it will be used) I had a bad tie rod and I knew that so I counted threads and after a week I noticed uneven tire wear but the car drove fine still and that was why I took it in. The mechanic I usually have do my alignments I quit using because one of the mechanics that work there live up the street from me and just out of the blue yells at me if I am legally parked (even if I am in the car waiting for something) across from his house and when I did my last front end alignment the manager told me that he took the car out for a drive and doesn't like the way the car handles. No idea why he yells at me but I don't want him driving my cars in case he decides he want to wreck something. I checked the whole frond end for play and found one bad upper ball joint and one tie rod before the front end alignments and both were changed by me I usually don't take my cars to shops and when I do I stand next to the mechanics working to watch them but unfortunately long hours are making this hard to do. But at any rate I just bought a fixed up a 99 metro cost me 1100$ but will pay for itself in gas savings (maybe not funeral costs though) so the sedan will be sitting for awhile maybe even a few years but thats the way it goes I guess.
2 Darts
A-body Addicted
I'm assuming that both front tires are the same make, model, size, and inflation (need same rolling diameter). Also assuming all bushings are good and nothing is bent.
One thing that can happen that a lot of mechs will miss is a "slipped" tread belt. I had this problem on a Daytona years ago. To rule this out, swap the front tires side-to-side. If the car pulls the other direction, the problem is probably the tread belt. You have to replace both front tires to cure the problem.
One thing that can happen that a lot of mechs will miss is a "slipped" tread belt. I had this problem on a Daytona years ago. To rule this out, swap the front tires side-to-side. If the car pulls the other direction, the problem is probably the tread belt. You have to replace both front tires to cure the problem.
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