12:05 Garage- ’70 Duster build

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HemiDenny said:
My UCAs have a nice downward towards the center of the car angle to them.....
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Only way I can wrap my head around that is if your LCA also has a downward angle towards the center of the car as well. Not sure how that would affect the roll center, but as you said it is a coffee getter so probably doesn't matter. Seems like suspension travel up would be limited that way, too.

HemiDenny said:
The Slammer / Super Slammer are designed for those that want to lower ONLY the body (I think they used to call it challeling) keeping the suspension at OEM height.....so naturally you would have to raise the driveline (tunnel) and the inner front fenders for tire clearance. I have found over the decades that while many like to talk about such a project, most do not want to do the mods and are looking for something that simply bolts in.....so they are not a big sellers.
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I think most people like the "IDEA" of something, but usually the reality is more than they wanted. Whether that is the work to get it built, or realizing that it isn't as fun as they thought or maybe they can't ignore the discomforts like they thought they could. Either way, sometimes the "IDEA" of something is different than the "REALITY" of it, and often times we don't see that coming.

HemiDenny said:
Simply, a rack / coilovers are not for every project and everyone..
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True.

HemiDenny said:
The HDK UCAs (available separately) allow for increase caster without the bind, something that most struggle with using strictly OEM components.
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Personally, I would never suggest a stock UCA unless the budget didn't allow for upgraded ones. I run stock UCA's with offset bushings right now but plan for better UCA in the near future, mostly due to what I think is a bent one on the right side. Either way, haven't struggled with any binding that I am aware of but would still agree with aftermarket UCA of some type.

HemiDenny said:
It is fun to work with the innovative guys here on FABO. Rarely a dull moment and that is the way I like it!
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:thumbsup:

Just personal opinion, but I think you have a great combination with Tim to get your product to the next level.
 
racerjoe said:
I didn't try the ride tech spindle. I was leaning that way until I found the 2" long ball joint. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. They don't publish the ball joint taper and I found conflicting information on what Chevelles actually had. I would have called them to get more info before moving in that direction. What I have found is the circle track racers have gone through all of this and have many parts to modify control arm angles and GM spindle steering arms. The great thing about the HDK having screw in ball joints for both upper and lower is pretty much anything goes if you have enough tenacity to figure it out. Perhaps a GM spindle is the way to go since there are many options in heights and brakes. Again, this is all speculation that it will work, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.
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Just an opinion, but I like the idea of a taller spindle over a longer balljoint. Certainly I'm not spending money or doing the work, I just like the idea better than adding length to the stud. At the same time, if I had been in your shoes, I probably would have gone the same direction.

It's kind of like my statement above. I like the "IDEA" of a taller spindle, but the "REALITY" of the additional cost and work probably would have turned me off on it. :D

Either way, my gut feel is that a taller spindle is a better solution in the end.
 
More than a decade ago I looked into having spindles made to my specs......when I was told a minimum order of 100,000 spindles / units were required, I decided to make the Mustang II work best I could. Until Tim informed me otherwise a few weeks ago I was under the impression the 1" extended (ball joint) was the max. I immediately ordered a set of plus 1.5" and plus 2.0" just to play with. The extended studs on both (1.5 and 2.0) are incredibly beefy and I look forward to installing them in my Duster in the coming weeks.


The 1" extended is a standard component with a HDK package.....maybe soon to be the 1.5" or 2".
 
Tim definitely brings a tri-fecta of knowledge to the table. He is a proven competitor on the drag strip and Auto X, plus drives the crap out his beautiful Duster on the street. Besides his willingness to put in the work, I couldn't ask for more when looking for honest, no BS feedback.

I'm looking forward to the future chapter. Once Tim gets the suspension fully dialed in to his liking......the Gen III transplant.

Happy New year!
Denny
 
HemiDenny said:
More than a decade ago I looked into having spindles made to my specs......when I was told a minimum order of 100,000 spindles / units were required, I decided to make the Mustang II work best I could. Until Tim informed me otherwise a few weeks ago I was under the impression the 1" extended (ball joint) was the max. I immediately ordered a set of plus 1.5" and plus 2.0" just to play with. The extended studs on both (1.5 and 2.0) are incredibly beefy and I look forward to installing them in my Duster in the coming weeks.


The 1" extended is a standard component with a HDK package.....maybe soon to be the 1.5" or 2".
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I would have guessed a custom spindle would be really expensive. So it was never an option I looked at.

But I have been toying with the idea of a fabricated spindle that uses a bolt in cartridge style wheel bearing and hub from a late model Challenger. In the end it has been discouraging because the bolt pattern on the aftermarket replacements have been 115mm and I am unwilling to run my 114.3mm wheels on them. I have measured earlier wheels and am convinced at least originally the pattern was 114.3mm but no idea if they changed it or if the aftermarket just uses the published number. I’ve been trying to get ahold of an OEM one to measure but no luck so far.

I started down that road partly because I want to feed an ABS module using wheel speed sensors so the G3 PCM has a speed input and cruise control can be made to work. Which is why I was so focused on the Challenger part. But it looks like the assembly Tim is using has an option for a tone ring, so it might make more sensor to build my spindle around that hub instead.
 
DionR said:
I would have guessed a custom spindle would be really expensive. So it was never an option I looked at.

But I have been toying with the idea of a fabricated spindle that uses a bolt in cartridge style wheel bearing and hub from a late model Challenger. In the end it has been discouraging because the bolt pattern on the aftermarket replacements have been 115mm and I am unwilling to run my 114.3mm wheels on them. I have measured earlier wheels and am convinced at least originally the pattern was 114.3mm but no idea if they changed it or if the aftermarket just uses the published number. I’ve been trying to get ahold of an OEM one to measure but no luck so far.

I started down that road partly because I want to feed an ABS module using wheel speed sensors so the G3 PCM has a speed input and cruise control can be made to work. Which is why I was so focused on the Challenger part. But it looks like the assembly Tim is using has an option for a tone ring, so it might make more sensor to build my spindle around that hub instead.
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Is there a company that already builds the fabricated spindle you’re talking about, or were you just planning to design and have a set made? Reason I ask, is I’ve got a future project that I’m considering using Challenger 5x115 wheels on anyway, so the Challenger hubs would work perfectly for me.
 
75slant6 said:
Is there a company that already builds the fabricated spindle you’re talking about, or were you just planning to design and have a set made? Reason I ask, is I’ve got a future project that I’m considering using Challenger 5x115 wheels on anyway, so the Challenger hubs would work perfectly for me.
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It’s my own design. One of the 4x4 shows did a fabricated spindle and a GM truck hub but it was more of a box built with plates. That won’t work for me, so my idea is layered high strength plates welded together. There is some trickery to it to make it all bolt up, like flipping the hub 180 compared to the OEM application. But the Vette hubs are like that (one bolt on the bottom) so not an unheard of orientation. It does take a welder and one machined piece for the upper BJ connection. But the rest is all just laser cut plates from SendCutSend or similar.

I thought about just accepting the 115mm bolt pattern and buying a different set of wheels, but I already have the front wheels in 5x4.5 so not excited about throwing those away.

Right now, it is just an idea and a somewhat developed layout though.
 
I got the idea from FourWheeler on MotorTrend.

IMG_0035.png


Unfortunately, nothing like that would work on an A-Body.
 
DionR said:
It’s my own design. One of the 4x4 shows did a fabricated spindle and a GM truck hub but it was more of a box built with plates. That won’t work for me, so my idea is layered high strength plates welded together. There is some trickery to it to make it all bolt up, like flipping the hub 180 compared to the OEM application. But the Vette hubs are like that (one bolt on the bottom) so not an unheard of orientation. It does take a welder and one machined piece for the upper BJ connection. But the rest is all just laser cut plates from SendCutSend or similar.

I thought about just accepting the 115mm bolt pattern and buying a different set of wheels, but I already have the front wheels in 5x4.5 so not excited about throwing those away.

Right now, it is just an idea and a somewhat developed layout though.
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I may have to pick your brain if/when I get to that point. I could also easily just use a stock spindle and redrill a hub to the 5x115 pattern. That’d probably be the easiest/cheapest option for me
 
@HemiDenny , @DionR , @75slant6 , check this out! This is another Ride Tech product that come with their Mustang kits. It uses a S550 Mustang hub, so the bolt pattern is 5x4.5. They also have a caliper brackets that will allow the use of the S550 brake components. I'm not seeing these parts listed individually on their webpage, only included in kits. I kinda wish I would have found this earlier. This open options to use a factory Brembo caliper and have parts store availability for replacement parts.

1704215090692.png
 
racerjoe said:
@HemiDenny , @DionR , @75slant6 , check this out! This is another Ride Tech product that come with their Mustang kits. It uses a S550 Mustang hub, so the bolt pattern is 5x4.5. They also have a caliper brackets that will allow the use of the S550 brake components. I'm not seeing these parts listed individually on their webpage, only included in kits. I kinda wish I would have found this earlier. This open options to use a factory Brembo caliper and have parts store availability for replacement parts.

View attachment 1716186738
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That is awesome! I really appreciate all the ground work you’re doing with all this stuff! Definitely gets me thinking on what I want to do with my cars in the future.
 
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75slant6 said:
Doing a little bit of googling, I just found these corvette hub style spindles from CPP that are a direct bolt on for Mustang ii style suspensions. Very reasonably priced as well! They wouldn’t solve the need for the 2” extended balljoints, but would be another great option for brakes as well as the bolt-in style hubs.

MUSTANG II SPINDLE & HUB FOR THE MODERN ERA

Corvette Style Spindles / Hubs / Brake Kits
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That's what I have right now. This is the reason I was initially searching for a taller spindle with the corvette hub.


hub.jpg
 
racerjoe said:
@HemiDenny , @DionR , @75slant6 , check this out! This is another Ride Tech product that come with their Mustang kits. It uses a S550 Mustang hub, so the bolt pattern is 5x4.5. They also have a caliper brackets that will allow the use of the S550 brake components. I'm not seeing these parts listed individually on their webpage, only included in kits. I kinda wish I would have found this earlier. This open options to use a factory Brembo caliper and have parts store availability for replacement parts.

View attachment 1716186738
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That’s cool!

I looked at using a Mustang front hub but everything I found used a stub on the spindle. Those are rear hubs and appear to have a bolt in the middle to simulate the axle squeezing the wheel bearings. I didn’t want to come up with a way to build that bolt, so I ignored the rear hubs. But the bolt isn’t a wear item so in theory once you have a set you never need another one. And in the end, it’s probably just a bolt, not splined like I was thinking it would need to be.

Using a Mustang hub really would be the best. The CPP hubs or a re-drilled C7 hub means you can’t just buy a replacement if you are on the road. Unless you just go to a GM bolt pattern all the way around.

The other reason I ignored those hubs was the 4 bolt flange. I need a single bolt in the middle at the bottom so the ball joint bolts clear. Didn’t think of rotating them 90 degrees like that though.
 
75slant6 said:
Doing a little bit of googling, I just found these corvette hub style spindles from CPP that are a direct bolt on for Mustang ii style suspensions. Very reasonably priced as well! They wouldn’t solve the need for the 2” extended balljoints, but would be another great option for brakes as well as the bolt-in style hubs.

MUSTANG II SPINDLE & HUB FOR THE MODERN ERA

Corvette Style Spindles / Hubs / Brake Kits
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Those hubs are even C7 style. I guess the C5/C6 hub isn’t strong enough but the C7 hub is about as big and beefy as you put into the space allowed.
 
racerjoe said:
@HemiDenny , @DionR , @75slant6 , check this out! This is another Ride Tech product that come with their Mustang kits. It uses a S550 Mustang hub, so the bolt pattern is 5x4.5. They also have a caliper brackets that will allow the use of the S550 brake components. I'm not seeing these parts listed individually on their webpage, only included in kits. I kinda wish I would have found this earlier. This open options to use a factory Brembo caliper and have parts store availability for replacement parts.

View attachment 1716186738
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That’s a pretty cool setup. Never knew they had a kit to replace the strut on a foxbody with an SLA setup. FYI, I did find part numbers in the instructions, but couldn’t find them online for sale. Maybe calling in would make it possible.

The S550 hub just uses a bolt like I guessed, plus some special washers. Doesn’t look too hard to duplicate if I couldn’t buy them separately.

And the S550 hub looks to have a tone ring, which is partly why I started down this road. The Challenger rear hub does not as the axle carries the tone ring.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. I think the S550 hub is the better solution as the bolt pattern matches and it is an off the shelf part as opposed to the CPP hub that would be hard to source on the road. Assuming I don’t find issues when I do the layout, looks like the path to go.

Thanks @racerjoe!!
 
Thought I'd share some pictures of how I do my own alignment. I first centered the rack by turning it to full lock both directions and taking a measurement from the end of the rod to the frame rail. Simply divide the difference of those two measurements by 2 and that's the measurement for the center. I verified by measuring both sides. Then, I put a piece of tape on the steering column with 3 lines on it and sliced the tape. This makes the center position repeatable during the alignment process. I found by "eyeballing" a straight steering wheel led to it being crooked when I'm done. After doing this, the steering wheel is perfect when driving.
steer.jpg

Camber and Caster measurements were done with a digital angle finder and a piece 1" angle iron cut to fit the face of the wheel. The angled tape on the ground indicates 20 degrees in both directions needed for caster measurements. Trash bags with WD40 in them are used as turning plates. It works surprisingly well. The toe plates are just plywood with a section cutout on the bottom for tire bulge and a couple slots for the tape measure. Holes in the corners capture bungee cords. The level is just straightening the board since the tension from the bungees make it bow. I haven't made a wood strong back yet. There you go, it's that simple.



toe.jpg
 
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This is the latest on the G3 Hemi. The engine harness is progressing. I need to go over everything, but I know I need to add at least two more wires to this. I have all the fabric loom for the harness and also got some insulated loom for the wires in the valley. Spaghetti anyone?

I'll share some photos of the throttle body adapter I made next. I have a few more things to wrap up on it before its ready for pics.

hemi wire.jpg
 
racerjoe said:
Thought I'd share some pictures of how I do my own alignment. I first centered the rack by turning it to full lock both directions and taking a measurement from the end of the rod to the frame rail. Simply divide the difference of those two measurements by 2 and that's the measurement for the center. I verified by measuring both sides. Then, I put a piece of tape on the steering column with 3 lines on it and sliced the tape. This makes the center position repeatable during the alignment process. I found by "eyeballing" a straight steering wheel led to it being crooked when I'm done. After doing this, the steering wheel is perfect when driving.
View attachment 1716189991
Camber and Caster measurements were done with a digital angle finder and a piece 1" angle iron cut to fit the face of the wheel. The angled tape on the ground indicates 20 degrees in both directions needed for caster measurements. Trash bags with WD40 in them are used as turning plates. It works surprisingly well. The toe plates are just plywood with a section cutout on the bottom for tire bulge and a couple slots for the tape measure. Holes in the corners capture bungee cords. The level is just straightening the board since the tension from the bungees make it bow. I just made a wood strong back yet. There you go, it's that simple.



View attachment 1716189992
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Impressive. My stuff is much more caveman-ish and I never bothered to check caster as I am running stock upper arms and offset bushings so I figured I could never get enough and why check if I can’t get more.
 
racerjoe said:
Thought I'd share some pictures of how I do my own alignment. I first centered the rack by turning it to full lock both directions and taking a measurement from the end of the rod to the frame rail. Simply divide the difference of those two measurements by 2 and that's the measurement for the center. I verified by measuring both sides. Then, I put a piece of tape on the steering column with 3 lines on it and sliced the tape. This makes the center position repeatable during the alignment process. I found by "eyeballing" a straight steering wheel led to it being crooked when I'm done. After doing this, the steering wheel is perfect when driving.
View attachment 1716189991
Camber and Caster measurements were done with a digital angle finder and a piece 1" angle iron cut to fit the face of the wheel. The angled tape on the ground indicates 20 degrees in both directions needed for caster measurements. Trash bags with WD40 in them are used as turning plates. It works surprisingly well. The toe plates are just plywood with a section cutout on the bottom for tire bulge and a couple slots for the tape measure. Holes in the corners capture bungee cords. The level is just straightening the board since the tension from the bungees make it bow. I just made a wood strong back yet. There you go, it's that simple.



View attachment 1716189992
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looks like my step B after initial install. Do you use a couple of greased plates on each side to allow the tire to move more more freely when turning the steering wheel for caster? chack
 
HemiDenny said:
looks like my step B after initial install. Do you use a couple of greased plates on each side to allow the tire to move more more freely when turning the steering wheel for caster? chack
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Black trash bags with copious amounts of WD40 between the folds of the bag. Works perfectly! I also roll the car back and forth about a foot and bounce the suspension a few times every time I make an adjustment.
 
DionR said:
Impressive. My stuff is much more caveman-ish and I never bothered to check caster as I am running stock upper arms and offset bushings so I figured I could never get enough and why check if I can’t get more.
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Ha! I thought my method was bottom of the barrel technology, but hey if it works, is it stupid? Before I did the HDK swap, I used the same method but brought it to a shop afterward. He didn't even turn a wrench and said it was dead on my specs. Little did he know that was going to be the last time he saw me there...
 
racerjoe said:
Ha! I thought my method was bottom of the barrel technology, but hey if it works, is it stupid? Before I did the HDK swap, I used the same method but brought it to a shop afterward. He didn't even turn a wrench and said it was dead on my specs. Little did he know that was going to be the last time he saw me there...
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I ran for several years on a home alignment using an angle finder on a 2x4 for camber and a tape measure on the tire tread. Adjusted for max caster, backed the front off to get an acceptable camber then dialed in the toe. Drove great, no tire wear, never even had it checked.

Then I went and put reinforced LCA's on it and offset bushings in a different set of UCA's and it hasn't been the same since. The toe would not measure consistently, I would set it and roll the car back and forward and bounce it and then check it and it would be pretty far off. So I bought some 1x1 aluminum tubing and cut sticks that I set on 2x4's that were on edge to space them off the concrete constantly and added a couple of pieces of wax paper un the tires, but it didn't work any better. Added solid tie rod tubes, no change. Went to a Borgeson box with a new pitman arm and then had a k-frame reinforced and welded and added adjustable strut rods at the same time. The thing still drove like it was possessed and I still couldn't get consistent toe in settings. Gave up and had it aligned. Interesting thing was, I had like +7 degrees of caster on the DS and like +1 degree on the PS. Time we got it aligned and consistent on both sides I was stuck with not much caster but everything else was ok. At least it drives better and doesn't pull to one side anymore. It's kind of squirrely when there are bumps or seams with the wide tires and low caster though. But at least I could drive it finally.

I think my PS UCA is bent and plan to get some new UCA's this spring and try it all again.
 
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DionR said:
I ran for several years on a home alignment using an angle finder on a 2x4 for camber and a tape measure on the tire tread. Adjusted for max caster, backed the front off to get an acceptable camber then dialed in the toe. Drove great, no tire wear, never even had it checked.

Then I went and put reinforced LCA's on it and offset bushings in a different set of UCA's and it hasn't been the same since. The toe would not measure consistently, I would set it and roll the car back and forward and bounce it and then check it and it would be pretty far off. So I bought some 1x1 aluminum tubing and cut sticks that I set on 2x4's that were on edge to space them off the concrete constantly and added a couple of pieces of wax paper un the tires, but it didn't work any better. Added solid tie rod tubes, no change. Went to a Borgeson box with a new pitman arm and then had a k-frame reinforced and welded and added adjustable strut rods at the same time. The thing still drove like it was possessed and I still couldn't get consistent toe in settings. Gave up and had it aligned. Interesting thing was, I had like +7 degrees of caster on the DS and like +1 degree on the PS. Time we got it aligned and consistent on both sides I was stuck with not much caster but everything else was ok. At least it drives better and doesn't pull to one side anymore. It's kind of squirrely when there are bumps or seams with the wide tires and low caster though. But at least I could drive it finally.

I think my PS UCA is bent and plan to get some new UCA's this spring and try it all again.
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Keep in mind as you add caster the steering arm end / tie rod pivot changes as it is lowered.....and that causes bump steer.
 
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