1969 Dodge Dart Engine Stutter

-

69Dart4DR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2021
Messages
65
Reaction score
0
Location
Ewa Beach, HI
Hello everyone,

I hope I am posting this in the right place. First time poster here.

So, I recently bought a 1969 dodge dart. It has 65,000 original miles on it and I am the 3rd owner. I am having a bit of trouble with engine starting / stutter / stalling. I am going to get into a bit more detail about the symptoms and I was hoping some of the experienced folk here could help me narrow in a bit. I know a lot of these symptoms can be a part of a wide array of issues. I am hoping to create a list and trouble shoot one thing at a time but I just don't know where to start.

The car recently had a backfire that blew the muffler. I had the muffler replaced and a short repaired in the engine bay. That got her running again. But, now I am suffering engine stutters / failure to start issues.

If the car sits for awhile then I can no longer start the car, I have to get it jumped. When I first get it jumped, it runs great for a bit. The moment I turn on headlights or windshield wipers, the car begins to rattle and stutter. When I am driving, as long as my foot is on the accelerator it runs great. If I am at a stop light, the longer I sit there the more the car starts to rattle and sputter like it is about to quit. I have had both the battery and the alternator checked at AutoZone. Both checked out. I have noticed corrosion on the battery leads, green film, I am assuming because the wires are copper.

Any advice? What should I look for and where do I start?

Thanks
 
So I gave the dart a jump and took some measurements after I removed the jump cables. The battery was so dead that the engine wasn't even turning over.

The battery was reading 12.90 volts after jump and dropped slowly to 12.60. Shortly thereafter the car stalled and died.
The alternator was reading 12.61 volts.

I am going to charge the battery overnight and get the readings again tomorrow. But, if these numbers are correct then it would be the alternator is not putting out enough voltage to charge the battery. Right?

Thoughts?
 
get alternator checked, could be a bad voltage regulator, both are pretty cheap in the scheme of things. I dont think the car would stutter with 12v as the coil routinely runs on 9. What carb? Backfires can damage certain carbs (Holley 2300,4150-60) Carb may be loading up with fuel. Check the carb venturis when its idling (careful doing this) if you see fuel dribbling out any orifice in quantity, your needle/seat is contaminated. tap on the carb with a hammer and sometimes that frees is up.
 
if the car dies when you pull the negative off the battery, its the charging circuit.
 
if the car dies when you pull the negative off the battery, its the charging circuit.

Thanks for the tips! I am going to check these tomorrow. When I pull the negative, if there is an issue will it die immediately?

Thanks again
 
Sounds like it is not charging. Could be a simple wiring problem, or alternator / regulator. If you can't do this yourself you need to spend some time to find "some old guy" or at least a young interested gearhead, who can and will work on classics. Mopar charging systems are one of the easiest there are to troubleshoot

If you want to try, I can walk you through some simple tests

If you are going to do ANY work on these you need:

(Besides regular mechanics tools)

Go to MyMopar and download a factory service manual

Get a multimeter and a 12V test lamp, and either a couple of alligator clip jumper leads or some alligator clips you can make your own. I think Lowes/ HD sells alligator clips, North Forty if you have them there
 
Sounds like it is not charging. Could be a simple wiring problem, or alternator / regulator. If you can't do this yourself you need to spend some time to find "some old guy" or at least a young interested gearhead, who can and will work on classics. Mopar charging systems are one of the easiest there are to troubleshoot

If you want to try, I can walk you through some simple tests

If you are going to do ANY work on these you need:

(Besides regular mechanics tools)

Go to MyMopar and download a factory service manual

Get a multimeter and a 12V test lamp, and either a couple of alligator clip jumper leads or some alligator clips you can make your own. I think Lowes/ HD sells alligator clips, North Forty if you have them there

So I actually have all those things. A guide through some tests would be amazing! Thank you
 
What are we workin here? A Chevy 350?
 
stock engine, 273 v8

Have you checked the fuel filter? These old girls ain't as young as they once were. Dirt, trash, sediment and rust build up n the fuel tank over 50 plus years. The first thing I do when I acquire an old car is remove the tank and inspect it. Replace if necessary or clean and flush the entire fuel system. Remove the fuel filter. Get a white paper towel and fold it in 4ths. Take the fuel filter and tap the the side coming FROM the pump on the towel. If you get some sediment out of the filter, the fuel system is compromised and needs to be serviced. May or may not be your problem, but it may need done.
 
You mentioned the corrosion on the outside of the battery terminals but did not say you removed them and wire brushed them. I'd be cleaning/sanding/wire brushing (depending on connector type) all terminals in the charging system first.
 
The initial backfire may have blown a vacuum hose off, resulting in a vacuum leak that can cause issues like you describe.
Engine running, listen for " hissing", look for hose not connected at or near carb, brake booster area.
Good luck .
 
OK the early (pre 70) charging system is dead nuts simple You have power from the key, known slang as "ignition run" or IGN1 which goes through the bulkhead connector and supplies everything under the hood for engine run, ignition, power to the voltage regulator, the alternator field in 70/ later, electric choke in later years, etc etc

So the VR/ alternator field circuit is simple. The dark blue "run" line branches off to feed the VR IGN terminal. The VR MUST BE GROUNDED. The field terminal feeds the green wire which goes to the alternator field --through the field--and to ground. This countrols charging.

The alternator is grounded by bolted to the engine, and the output stud comes off--feeds (BIG BLACK) through the bulkhead connector, to the under-dash welded splice where it branches off to the fuse panel, the ignition switch, and the headlight switch----goes through the ammeter---comes out through the bulkhad connector on BIG RED---through the fuse link---to the big starter relay stud---and to the battery

Simplified diagram of power distro:

Catalog

amp-ga18.jpg


Simplified diagram of the VR/ field:

moparpre70.gif


SO-------------some simple tests:

I "sort of" divide the problem into 3 areas---

1.....The VR/ field circuit
2.....The output / ammeter circuit
3.....The major components, here mostly the alternator and VR

1...Disconnect the green field wire at alternator. Rig a jumper wire from that alternator terminal direct to the battery. If possible, get in subdued light and connect/ disconnect it and watch and listen for a small spark which will tell you the field is drawing current. Don't sweat that. Start engine with voltmeter connected direct to battery. Run RPM up simulating cruise RPM and see if battery voltage climbs at all.

2....If no change above, now you want to see if alternator is possibly "putting out" but maybe the charging wire circuit is open. So now move your voltmeter to the alternator output stud and re-run the test. If no output change, the alternator is not charging.

3....One thing you can do is to pull the alternator and remove and inspect brushes. Look for excessive grease/ mud/ other that would cause brush sticking, or severe brush wear or other problems that would prevent brush contact

If this test shows no charge, you either need to fix or replace alternator

===================================

If the above tests DID result in output to the battery, now we need to concentrate on VR and field wiring.

4..To check the wiring, reconnect the green field wire in tests above, and disconnect both wires at VR. Rig a way to jumper these wires together, which will do same thing as first test--that is "full field" alternator---except now we are using the complete harness. If the thing charges, that wiring is intact.

Next remove and inspect grounding on VR. Looseness, stripped bolts, rust, etc, clean around bolt holes remount tight with star lock washers. Reconnect VR and retest. If it will not charge, but did so in last test (4) when jumpered, then replace VR

Obviously if test (4) does not charge, but the earlier test (1,2) did, you have a wiring harness problem.
 
Additional info read the service manual. There's a procedure in there to check alternator field current draw. For that you need a multimeter with an ammeter scale, and if they have one, usually either 10A or 20A will do

One reason the field current test might be important, is that a field can become partially shorted, drawing too much current, and can burn up the VR. Or the brush holders can have problems and create shorts

IF YOU REPLACE the alternator CHECK THE NEW ONE for shorts problems at the brushes
 
Thanks for all of the help! I am slowly working my way through this. So I charged the battery on a tender over night. I hooked the battery up and turned the key. The car started immediately. I disconnected the negative and the car died instantly. So, that narrows it down to the charging system correct? Not to say that there couldn't be parallel problems. But I can now conclude the charging system has issues?
 
Additional info read the service manual. There's a procedure in there to check alternator field current draw. For that you need a multimeter with an ammeter scale, and if they have one, usually either 10A or 20A will do

One reason the field current test might be important, is that a field can become partially shorted, drawing too much current, and can burn up the VR. Or the brush holders can have problems and create shorts

IF YOU REPLACE the alternator CHECK THE NEW ONE for shorts problems at the brushes

About to start working through this. Thank you.
 
OK the early (pre 70) charging system is dead nuts simple You have power from the key, known slang as "ignition run" or IGN1 which goes through the bulkhead connector and supplies everything under the hood for engine run, ignition, power to the voltage regulator, the alternator field in 70/ later, electric choke in later years, etc etc

So the VR/ alternator field circuit is simple. The dark blue "run" line branches off to feed the VR IGN terminal. The VR MUST BE GROUNDED. The field terminal feeds the green wire which goes to the alternator field --through the field--and to ground. This countrols charging.

The alternator is grounded by bolted to the engine, and the output stud comes off--feeds (BIG BLACK) through the bulkhead connector, to the under-dash welded splice where it branches off to the fuse panel, the ignition switch, and the headlight switch----goes through the ammeter---comes out through the bulkhad connector on BIG RED---through the fuse link---to the big starter relay stud---and to the battery

Simplified diagram of power distro:

Catalog

View attachment 1715763397

Simplified diagram of the VR/ field:

View attachment 1715763398

SO-------------some simple tests:

I "sort of" divide the problem into 3 areas---

1.....The VR/ field circuit
2.....The output / ammeter circuit
3.....The major components, here mostly the alternator and VR

1...Disconnect the green field wire at alternator. Rig a jumper wire from that alternator terminal direct to the battery. If possible, get in subdued light and connect/ disconnect it and watch and listen for a small spark which will tell you the field is drawing current. Don't sweat that. Start engine with voltmeter connected direct to battery. Run RPM up simulating cruise RPM and see if battery voltage climbs at all.

2....If no change above, now you want to see if alternator is possibly "putting out" but maybe the charging wire circuit is open. So now move your voltmeter to the alternator output stud and re-run the test. If no output change, the alternator is not charging.

3....One thing you can do is to pull the alternator and remove and inspect brushes. Look for excessive grease/ mud/ other that would cause brush sticking, or severe brush wear or other problems that would prevent brush contact

If this test shows no charge, you either need to fix or replace alternator

===================================

If the above tests DID result in output to the battery, now we need to concentrate on VR and field wiring.

4..To check the wiring, reconnect the green field wire in tests above, and disconnect both wires at VR. Rig a way to jumper these wires together, which will do same thing as first test--that is "full field" alternator---except now we are using the complete harness. If the thing charges, that wiring is intact.

Next remove and inspect grounding on VR. Looseness, stripped bolts, rust, etc, clean around bolt holes remount tight with star lock washers. Reconnect VR and retest. If it will not charge, but did so in last test (4) when jumpered, then replace VR

Obviously if test (4) does not charge, but the earlier test (1,2) did, you have a wiring harness problem.



Ok..... Step 1 & 2:

so, I disconnected the green field wire and connected a jump wire from that terminal on the alternator to the negative post on the battery. The reading of the battery non-running was 12.90 +- 5. The reading of the battery with the jump wire was 12.95 - 13.00 at cruise. The reading of the alternator from the alternator posts was 12.96.

About to start step 4
I am completely unsure if the readings above are what they should be or if they are below and indicate an issue. If anyone knows, lemme know. I'll be doing some number checking later.
 
Ok..... Step 1 & 2:

so, I disconnected the green field wire and connected a jump wire from that terminal on the alternator to the negative post on the battery. The reading of the battery non-running was 12.90 +- 5. The reading of the battery with the jump wire was 12.95 - 13.00 at cruise. The reading of the alternator from the alternator posts was 12.96.

About to start step 4
I am completely unsure if the readings above are what they should be or if they are below and indicate an issue. If anyone knows, lemme know. I'll be doing some number checking later.
Repeat this test but connect the temporary field wire to the positive side of the battery. You are acting as the voltage regulator while doing this and providing full field voltage to the alternator. You should see 14+ volts. At the output stud.
 
Repeat this test but connect the temporary field wire to the positive side of the battery. You are acting as the voltage regulator while doing this and providing full field voltage to the alternator. You should see 14+ volts. At the output stud.

So I just tested this out. The reading started off about 13.80 and climbed to 14.18 right before I shut it off.

She sounds great with the VR out of the loop. No stuttering.

I just tested this again but stepped on the gas. The reading hit 17.45 at cruise speed. The difference in how the car is running is massive. I was also able to start it up without a jump which is a first.
 
Last edited:
OK get (if you don't) a charger that can bring the battery back up. Then re-run that test. The alternator may be OK, or it may be charging but unable to provide much output. If the battery is down that test may read low. Normally, with a good battery that is "up" doing the "full field" test will result in voltage needing to be watched as you bring up RPM. In other words, normally, as you bring RPM up to "highway cruise" the voltage may go on up to 16 and you need to start watching it. So you need to charge the battery and then figure roughly if the alternator seems to have some headroom.
 
So I just tested this out. The reading started off about 13.80 and climbed to 14.18 right before I shut it off.

She sounds great with the VR out of the loop. No stuttering.

I just tested this again but stepped on the gas. The reading hit 17.45 at cruise speed. The difference in how the car is running is massive. I was also able to start it up without a jump which is a first.
You have a VR or wiring problem. Or both the alternator is fine.
 
So I just tested this out. The reading started off about 13.80 and climbed to 14.18 right before I shut it off.

She sounds great with the VR out of the loop. No stuttering.

I just tested this again but stepped on the gas. The reading hit 17.45
You have a VR or wiring problem. Or both the alternator is fine.

Yeah, I think the test that 67dart had me do pointed to that as well.
 
Ok. Now finish with Del’s diognosis. He’s got you going on the right track.
 
-
Back
Top