200 4R Install Questions.

[C300]

Had not been on the site in a while. See that lots are going with the 200 4R. Talked to Art Carr years ago about these. Had issues with one in my Monti SS Aero Coupe. Ended up just the TV cable bracket letting the cable "pop out" when really hot (in AZ.) Cheap fix, Expensive problem, as a rebuild needed every time. so i have one in the garage as a spare. I read the info about building, need a Stage 2 most likely. '67 cuda 512 ci tall block, perf. RPM heads n M1 port matched, Roller cam. Should be mid 600's hp n torque say's Hughes. RPM not much over 6k, dana 60, mini tub, caltracs. willwoods. have a rebuilt '67 a-body 8/3/4" 741 3.55 posi n 727. was going this way. looking for street cruising weekend 1/4 mile car. beat up new GTO's n Mustangs. need the OD for that...
Questions are, best gears. have 4.10's now in a narrowed dana 60 510 housing. 4.56-4.88-5.30 ? I did the calculator. want real world experience.
What's the best adapters, and who makes them ?

 

[Treblig]

I think any adapter will work but I went with the TCI because it was the thinnest (1/4"). The thicker the adapter the further back it pushes the transmission and the more you have to cut out of the upper cross member. I use my car for driving around for pleasure and have 3:90 gears. It could easily handle 4:10s but I'd probably lose gas mileage on the highway.
I have a thread that shows everything I did for my install:

Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

treblig

 

[C300]

I think any adapter will work but I went with the TCI because it was the thinnest (1/4"). The thicker the adapter the further back it pushes the transmission and the more you have to cut out of the upper cross member. I use my car for driving around for pleasure and have 3:90 gears. It could easily handle 4:10s but I'd probably lose gas mileage on the highway.
I have a thread that shows everything I did for my install:

Will GM 200r4 work with factory floor shift location?

treblig

Great, thanks. found another thread you posted in. was hoping that you would answer to this. Defiantly want a 1/4" Adapter. Here are some of the gear calculator scenario's I did.

R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
3.91 28.8 65 .67
1987 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
4.10 28.8 65 .67
2083 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
3.91 28.8 140 .67
4279 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
4.10 28.8 140 .67
4487 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
4.88 28.8 65 .67
2479 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
4.88 28.8 140 .67
5340 RPM
R&P Ratio Tire Height Speed Trans Ratio
5.38 28.8 140 .67
5888 RPM

Going to look into the gears more. Don't think i want to do 200 mph in this car without some kind of spoilers ! Figuring in going through the traps between 120-140. Going to put a cage in a year after it's road worthy.

 

[Treblig]

One thing to keep in mind......I only have an 1800 stall converter and I wanted to be sure and have a cruising (highway) speed that would have the converter fully engaged (minimize trans temps) . I cruise (65/70) at around 2200/2300 RPM which is well above the stall. If you're using your car for racing then it's totally different. Just make sure you consider your cruising speed VS converter stall if you plan to drive around town a lot??? Of course tire size and gear ratio are important as well.

treblig

 

[jbc426]

Had not been on the site in a while. See that lots are going with the 200 4R. Talked to Art Carr years ago about these. Had issues with one in my Monti SS Aero Coupe. Ended up just the TV cable bracket letting the cable "pop out" when really hot (in AZ.) Cheap fix, Expensive problem, as a rebuild needed every time. so i have one in the garage as a spare. I read the info about building, need a Stage 2 most likely. '67 cuda 512 ci tall block, perf. RPM heads n M1 port matched, Roller cam. Should be mid 600's hp n torque say's Hughes. RPM not much over 6k, dana 60, mini tub, caltracs. willwoods. have a rebuilt '67 a-body 8/3/4" 741 3.55 posi n 727. was going this way. looking for street cruising weekend 1/4 mile car. beat up new GTO's n Mustangs. need the OD for that...
Questions are, best gears. have 4.10's now in a narrowed dana 60 510 housing. 4.56-4.88-5.30 ? I did the calculator. want real world experience.
What's the best adapters, and who makes them ?

I used a bellhousing on my install. I like it much better than the plate style adapters. Also, I am running 3,91 gears with 275/60-15's, a 3000 stall converter with a 3 carbon fiber disc lock-up clutch. Art Carr doesn't know how to set up a lock-up converter in these transmissions, so I skipped him and went with an Extreme Automatics Stage 2 build. The gearing is perfect for long distance cruising and hot street action. It is truly like having a 5 speed automatic. The lock-up is set-up to engage only in 4th gear when I have the toggle switch activated. It automatically unlocks when the transmission downshifts. It an awesome feature. I got 18 mpg at 80 mph on the way home from LA.

I don't think my car would have out pulled a Hellcat in the Spring Fling Drags if not for the 200R4.

If I was bolting one of these to a built big block, I would use a Stage 3 from Extreme Automatics. The bellhousing method of attaching these transmissions makes for a much cleaner install. US Cartool makes the crossmember conversions now, and I would supplement that with their complete chassis stiffening kit

 

[C300]

Thanks jbc426 ! That's what I was looking for. Great info. Although it's midnight and I haven't even started looking at the cross member issues. Are You using the Reid bellhousing n EA's adapter? That n a stage 3. Not a cheap way to go! Maybe I should have worked the weekend...

 

[jbc426]

Thanks jbc426 ! That's what I was looking for. Great info. Although it's midnight and I haven't even started looking at the cross member issues. Are You using the Reid bellhousing n EA's adapter? That n a stage 3. Not a cheap way to go! Maybe I should have worked the weekend...

Yes, Reid SFI rated bellhousing and Lonnie of Extreme Automatic's CNC'd adapter. It isn't the cheapest way to go, but they have top-shelf customer service and put out a great product. The transmission's gearing with 3.91's or 4.10's is perfect for launching and high speed freeway cruising. It feels like a 5 speed. Not sure why someone like Art Carr cant figure out how to do this, but the lock-up converter is something I would never want to be without. Even with a modern high-efficiency, high stall torque converter, mine drops at least 300 rpm on the highway when it locks-up.

I did use a high quality torque converter with 3000 stall and 3 carbon fiber lock-up clutches from Precision of New Hampton, ask for Milt. The overall length of the converter is critical get right. This allows a certain amount of freeplay for the converter once the bellhousing/trans and block are all bolted up. Too tight and the converter is pushed into the transmission causing damage and too loose and the converter can come out of the transmission disengaging the pump tabs etc. Its not hard to figure out, but it must be within spec. Milt has those measurements for my small block. They should be the same on your big block, but he can guide you on that.

Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of why someone might want to spend the money on this combo. I drove the car nearly 400 miles each way to pull off a win against a Hellcat, several other modern Hemi powered cars and a bunch of other vehicles, and I got over 18 mpg on the freeway at 80 mph. This was with only 410 hp. I'm upping that to just over 510 in the next few weeks.

 

[C300]

Yes, Reid SFI rated bellhousing and Lonnie of Extreme Automatic's CNC'd adapter. It isn't the cheapest way to go, but they have top-shelf customer service and put out a great product. The transmission's gearing with 3.91's or 4.10's is perfect for launching and high speed freeway cruising. It feels like a 5 speed. Not sure why someone like Art Carr cant figure out how to do this, but the lock-up converter is something I would never want to be without. Even with a modern high-efficiency, high stall torque converter, mine drops at least 300 rpm on the highway when it locks-up.

I did use a high quality torque converter with 3000 stall and 3 carbon fiber lock-up clutches from Precision of New Hampton, ask for Milt. The overall length of the converter is critical get right. This allows a certain amount of freeplay for the converter once the bellhousing/trans and block are all bolted up. Too tight and the converter is pushed into the transmission causing damage and too loose and the converter can come out of the transmission disengaging the pump tabs etc. Its not hard to figure out, but it must be within spec. Milt has those measurements for my small block. They should be the same on your big block, but he can guide you on that.

Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of why someone might want to spend the money on this combo. I drove the car nearly 400 miles each way to pull off a win against a Hellcat, several other modern Hemi powered cars and a bunch of other vehicles, and I got over 18 mpg on the freeway at 80 mph. This was with only 410 hp. I'm upping that to just over 510 in the next few weeks.

View attachment 1714930486

View attachment 1714930487

That heads up, or bracket? Sweet! Got a friend with a hellcat. With my brother as Navigator they won the 105 category and one mile shoot out at the Silver state classic Last fall. Second time. '09 they were rookies of the year. Different cars. That car is a lot heaver than an a-body. Glad I found the thread on the 200R4 when I did. I like and got used to the tranny in the Monti SS. Going to copy this thread and post it on the wall in the garage. Just got everything I needed to finish the build and now going a different direction. Guess that's the way it goes! Thanks again!

 

[C300]

Yes, Reid SFI rated bellhousing and Lonnie of Extreme Automatic's CNC'd adapter. It isn't the cheapest way to go, but they have top-shelf customer service and put out a great product. The transmission's gearing with 3.91's or 4.10's is perfect for launching and high speed freeway cruising. It feels like a 5 speed. Not sure why someone like Art Carr cant figure out how to do this, but the lock-up converter is something I would never want to be without. Even with a modern high-efficiency, high stall torque converter, mine drops at least 300 rpm on the highway when it locks-up.

I did use a high quality torque converter with 3000 stall and 3 carbon fiber lock-up clutches from Precision of New Hampton, ask for Milt. The overall length of the converter is critical get right. This allows a certain amount of freeplay for the converter once the bellhousing/trans and block are all bolted up. Too tight and the converter is pushed into the transmission causing damage and too loose and the converter can come out of the transmission disengaging the pump tabs etc. Its not hard to figure out, but it must be within spec. Milt has those measurements for my small block. They should be the same on your big block, but he can guide you on that.

Here's a few pictures to give you an idea of why someone might want to spend the money on this combo. I drove the car nearly 400 miles each way to pull off a win against a Hellcat, several other modern Hemi powered cars and a bunch of other vehicles, and I got over 18 mpg on the freeway at 80 mph. This was with only 410 hp. I'm upping that to just over 510 in the next few weeks.

View attachment 1714930486

View attachment 1714930487

Jbc426, did you install the cross member, and could I do this on jack stands ? I see you kinda have a shop in the background. Looks like ya install /weld it in then cut out the piece in the way. Looks straight forward. Made my own boxing plates. Sure set the finish date back!

 

[jbc426]

Jbc426, did you install the cross member, and could I do this on jack stands ? I see you kinda have a shop in the background. Looks like ya install /weld it in then cut out the piece in the way. Looks straight forward. Made my own boxing plates. Sure set the finish date back!

Yes, I used jack stands. I bought a set of 12 ton Harbor Freight stands that really get the car up so you can work on it. I did the crossmember modification before US Cartool came out with their kit. My torsion bar crossmember is now solidly welded to the floor pan of the car. It was spot welded rather lightly before this from the factory. With the added material and welding, it is stronger than it was before the modification. I tried my best to document the swap in a thread last year. I'm sure it's searchable using my screen name. It's titled "One wire lock-up 4 speed automatic" or something like that. I followed Treblig's and Mopar to Ya's lead on the install, but went with the bellhousing instead of the plate to adapt it to my Mopar.

 

[jbc426]

That heads up, or bracket? Sweet! Got a friend with a hellcat. With my brother as Navigator they won the 105 category and one mile shoot out at the Silver state classic Last fall. Second time. '09 they were rookies of the year. Different cars. That car is a lot heaver than an a-body. Glad I found the thread on the 200R4 when I did. I like and got used to the tranny in the Monti SS. Going to copy this thread and post it on the wall in the garage. Just got everything I needed to finish the build and now going a different direction. Guess that's the way it goes! Thanks again!

It was just an old fashioned flag drop race on an unprepared track(the front straight of Willow Springs). He was sure making up some time at the end of the track too. We were matched up in the final round. His Hellcat ran a best of 12.54 in Vegas the week before.

 

[C300]

My brother lives in Vegas. He was out at willowsprings in a White Crossfire. Parked in the pits. He tracks it. His '68 has C5 suspension. Not done yet. Going to make all the body stiffners. Going to buy the cross member. Want to get this done. Hopefully we can get both cars there next year. Hang out. Crush new iron. Thanks for the info, will be reading that thread!

 

[Mopar to ya]

I went with an Art Carr 200-4R three years ago. I have a 408 stroker, Dana 60 with 4.10 and 27.75" tires. It has a 2800 stall and I have loved it. I used the TCI adapter because that's what Art sells. It is one huge piece of aluminum. You will need to cut it down. I am having trouble this year, though. I'm spitting fluid out the vent. A lot of fluid and only when hot. I called Art and he said my cooler was crap and I needed a stacked plate cooler and that i can buy the same size cooler and get 5 times the cooling with a stacked plate. I asked him why it would all of a sudden not be cooling enough and he told me to just trust him. It didn't help. Then he said change the filter. No luck. I called a local guy I know and he says the converter is likely slipping or failing which causes a lot of heat. So I read up on it and sure enough, there's a lot of evidence to support this. I call Art and he says the converter will not increase heat. I tell him that from what I have learned it certainly will. He got all pissy with me. He told me to lower the fluid level a pint. I told him the transmission pissed out more than that on the way home last night. He is not very helpful and when I told him I had installed a B&M Supercooler he took me to task for not buying his. He said the B&M is too small. By that time I had had it with him and said, correct me if I'm wrong, but you said if I buy a stacked plate cooler I can buy the same size and get 5 times the cooling? This is bigger than my old one. He hemmed and hawed. I'm done with Art Carr. From now on I stay local for everything. I'm bringing it to the local guy next Monday. He says he can drive it and tell me if the converter is locking up or not. He also makes an adapter for the TV cable to throttle linkage that allows a tighter cable, more than all the way open at wide open throttle. He says it increases line pressure so the transmission shift points are better and the shifts feel better. He's going to install that for free for me.

 

[C300]

I went with an Art Carr 200-4R three years ago. I have a 408 stroker, Dana 60 with 4.10 and 27.75" tires. It has a 2800 stall and I have loved it. I used the TCI adapter because that's what Art sells. It is one huge piece of aluminum. You will need to cut it down. I am having trouble this year, though. I'm spitting fluid out the vent. A lot of fluid and only when hot. I called Art and he said my cooler was crap and I needed a stacked plate cooler and that i can buy the same size cooler and get 5 times the cooling with a stacked plate. I asked him why it would all of a sudden not be cooling enough and he told me to just trust him. It didn't help. Then he said change the filter. No luck. I called a local guy I know and he says the converter is likely slipping or failing which causes a lot of heat. So I read up on it and sure enough, there's a lot of evidence to support this. I call Art and he says the converter will not increase heat. I tell him that from what I have learned it certainly will. He got all pissy with me. He told me to lower the fluid level a pint. I told him the transmission pissed out more than that on the way home last night. He is not very helpful and when I told him I had installed a B&M Supercooler he took me to task for not buying his. He said the B&M is too small. By that time I had had it with him and said, correct me if I'm wrong, but you said if I buy a stacked plate cooler I can buy the same size and get 5 times the cooling? This is bigger than my old one. He hemmed and hawed. I'm done with Art Carr. From now on I stay local for everything. I'm bringing it to the local guy next Monday. He says he can drive it and tell me if the converter is locking up or not. He also makes an adapter for the TV cable to throttle linkage that allows a tighter cable, more than all the way open at wide open throttle. He says it increases line pressure so the transmission shift points are better and the shifts feel better. He's going to install that for free for me.

Thanks for the info. When I talked to Art year ago, he had just gotten his name back from the Chinese, or whomever. Told me that he could build a 200 or 700 to handle 1500hp. Got an after market TV cable n bracket. Will never use stock again! The torque converter lock-up is always the week link. I looked at the Extreme Automatic's Web site. They have someone build a converter with 3 carbon fiber pucks on the clutch. That's the way I'm going. Will dig deeper later. Manual lock-up in OD. I'm thinking that if I add a 150hp spray down the road, I'll be just above 800hp. So I'm building it to last.
On your's You should be able to feel the converter lock up, and RPM should drop, about 300 or so on the tach. When stepping on the gas it should unlock go up 300 ish RPM. I'd call Extreme. Was talking to a friend in the car club yesterday. Owns a transmission shop for 30 years. Called the 200R4 junk. Got to talk with someone in the know. I haven't called them yet. Will soon. Good luck

 

[Mopar to ya]

The 200-4R isn't junk. I'm taking it to the transmission shop and letting him drive it Monday. I've beaten the crap out of this transmission for three plus years. Track racing, street racing, rolling burnouts, the whole works. It takes it all. I run 4.10 gears and had it at 145 with more to go. The steering and suspension, not to mention the brakes got scary at that speed. Something happened to mine, and the more I talk to people, I think it's the converter. I'll definitely go custom if that is the problem. I'm already looking.

 

[C300]

Mopar to ya, the local trans shop guy said 200R4's are junk. You and I know that they are just what the doctor ordered. Most people are clueless. If it's the converter, look into the one at Extreme. I went through a couple in Arizona. 80-120 mph 2-3 hours straight day after day, the stator n vanes just became brittle and failed. Had a 100% welded and oven braised built. Bearings too. No more issues. It was tighter to. Slipping causes heat. Original unlocked at those speeds/pressures. Burned up... good luck!

 

[jbc426]

Thanks for the info. When I talked to Art year ago, he had just gotten his name back from the Chinese, or whomever. Told me that he could build a 200 or 700 to handle 1500hp. Got an after market TV cable n bracket. Will never use stock again! The torque converter lock-up is always the week link. I looked at the Extreme Automatic's Web site. They have someone build a converter with 3 carbon fiber pucks on the clutch. That's the way I'm going. Will dig deeper later. Manual lock-up in OD. I'm thinking that if I add a 150hp spray down the road, I'll be just above 800hp. So I'm building it to last.
On your's You should be able to feel the converter lock up, and RPM should drop, about 300 or so on the tach. When stepping on the gas it should unlock go up 300 ish RPM. I'd call Extreme. Was talking to a friend in the car club yesterday. Owns a transmission shop for 30 years. Called the 200R4 junk. Got to talk with someone in the know. I haven't called them yet. Will soon. Good luck

In stock form, with the exception of the Buick Grand National version, they were weak. Like with so many things though, with a little know-how, some heavy duty parts and lots of experience, the 200R4 is an incredible transmission with nearly perfect gear ratios, shifting characteristics, amazing reliability, high-efficiency, low parasitic drag, compact size and low weight. Nothing else even comes close for folks interested in updating their old Mopars. Now, with the availability of the bellhousing adapters, and functional lock-up converter features, its a win, win situation.

 

[C300]

In stock form, with the exception of the Buick Grand National version, they were weak. Like with so many things though, with a little know-how, some heavy duty parts and lots of experience, the 200R4 is an incredible transmission with nearly perfect gear ratios, shifting characteristics, amazing reliability, high-efficiency, low parasitic drag, compact size and low weight. Nothing else even comes close for folks interested in updating their old Mopars. Now, with the availability of the bellhousing adapters, and functional lock-up converter features, its a win, win situation.

I agree, looking forward to installing one. EXTREMES Web site says that the valve bodies in the Grand national and Monti SS are the same/best. Got 2 of them in the garage. They modify others to copy them. Got to talk to them and find out more. Plus that after market converter. That's the only real issue I have had. And that was with low power. Looks like I'll be doing a Stage 3. No choice.

 

[joeboy]

Jbc426, did you install the cross member, and could I do this on jack stands ? I see you kinda have a shop in the background. Looks like ya install /weld it in then cut out the piece in the way. Looks straight forward. Made my own boxing plates. Sure set the finish date back!

I did the install of the cartool mount in my garage with jack stands. Like you said, mark, cut, measure and weld. The mount was really close to exact fit in my car, I cut about 1/4" off the ends to make it mount flush, and cut a small wedge out of one side to clear the torsionbar socket for welding. It buts right up against it on the pass side. I had to massage the floor a bit here and there to make it fit just right, but it's a really nice part. I also can't say enough about how good of customer service UScartool has had for me. I've had them on the phone a few times, and emailed them back and forth a bit too. With a product this new they really want it to work and meet our needs, they actually even said they wil remake my bolt in mount portion with the mounting pad a bit higher to help me get a more appropriate pinion angle. Great people.

 

[joeboy]

A few more...

I also went with the Reid bell and EA stage 2 with lock up. I'll be running 4.10 and a 3000 stall. I hope to fire it up tomorrow actually...

The only thing I'd mention about higher gears like 4.56 or 4.88 is that remember your diveshaft RPM is still spinning whatever RPM you would be at that speed with 1:1 and that gear. Aluminum driveshafts and shafts of longer lengths may become unstable or wobble at high RPMs even though your engine isn't wound up...

 

[C300]

Joboy, nice job! Did they recommend stitch welding the c-member to the floor, or welding up the whole thing? Also, what drive shaft loop is that? Nice clean install!

 

[C300]

That's one deep tranny pan ! Here's a stock '87 Monti SS tranny!

 

[jbc426]

Joboy, nice job! Did they recommend stitch welding the c-member to the floor, or welding up the whole thing? Also, what drive shaft loop is that? Nice clean install!

Clean install! That US Cartool kit looks sweet. I used a 3" chromemoly driveshaft with 1350 Spicer joints from Strange Engineering.

Regarding driveshaft selection. Come to find out, mine is 52" long and has a critical speed of under 7000 rpm. My rev limiter cuts in at 6700 rpm, so in 3rd gear, I'm on the threshold of maxing out my driveshaft with my 3.91's. Once it hits the .67 to 1 ratio in 4th, it will easily exceed the critical speed.

I felt this as an intense vibration that built in intensity above 105 mph while I was doing some wide open runs down in Willow Springs a few weeks ago. This intense, high-resonant frequency vibration would kick in as I began to wind 4th gear up past 105mph through 130+ mph. I knew I had serious issues. With overdrive, my driveshaft can easily approach and exceed 9000 rpm on the top end. Catastrophic failure is only a matter of time away at these speeds.

Looks like I'll be ordering a carbon fiber driveshaft from QA1 this week. It's critical speed is somewhere around 14000 rpm.

Something to consider if you push your car hard.

 

[C300]

Clean install! That US Cartool kit looks sweet. I used a 3" chromemoly driveshaft with 1350 Spicer joints from Strange Engineering.

Regarding driveshaft selection. Come to find out, mine is 52" long and has a critical speed of under 7000 rpm. My rev limiter cuts in at 6700 rpm, so in 3rd gear, I'm on the threshold of maxing out my driveshaft with my 3.91's. Once it hits the .67 to 1 ratio in 4th, it will easily exceed the critical speed.

I felt this as an intense vibration that built in intensity above 105 mph while I was doing some wide open runs down in Willow Springs a few weeks ago. This intense, high-resonant frequency vibration would kick in as I began to wind 4th gear up past 105mph through 130+ mph. I knew I had serious issues. With overdrive, my driveshaft can easily approach and exceed 9000 rpm on the top end. Catastrophic failure is only a matter of time away at these speeds.

Looks like I'll be ordering a carbon fiber driveshaft from QA1 this week. It's critical speed is somewhere around 14000 rpm.

Something to consider if you push your car hard.

Great info! Gotta love the forums. Like a giant car club, everyone learning from others... most certainly will need to step it up to a higher RPM shaft. Was thinking aluminum. Let me know how it works out. Thanks. The Monti SS didn't vibrate at 130 or so. Wonder why ? 52"isn't very long. What do you have for rear suspension? I have caltracks and SS springs. Was told that was a bad mix so not sure if the Hotchkiss are a better option than the split leaf caltrack springs. Probably should just put a 4 link in it !

 

[joeboy]

C300,

Thanks I'm really happy with the install too. It's a great piece. They suggest welding the entire x-member to the floor, I only did 4 or 5 2" stitch weld front and back to mine. My end plates I made for the the old x-member overlap up onto the new one about an inch also. I figure the factory one was only spot welded to the floor in a few places so I'm sure stitching would be fine... But that's just me.

The pan holds 2 extra qts. It is massive compared to stock for sure. Ive heard the in some cars drag racing the trans has the ability to suck the factory pan and top Feed filter dry...you may know better from your Monte Carlo SS experience, but I digured it was cheap insurance... It sits almost exactly level with my headers now.

I got my driveshaft loop from someone on eBay, they're Mopar A body specific... Don't know the sellers name, it's a really nice part also, although it sits right where my bucket seats bolt in.

I run caltracs and split monos and put about 2k miles on it that way. I'm happy with it.

Joe