318 build advise

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Nemesea

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Hi guys,

First time posting on this nice forum where i spent hours to read threads.
New year gift, i'm about to buy a 1972 Dodge Dart swinger 3-speeds auto trans.
It's in a really good shape but i need advises regarding the engine.
It's a V8 318:
- The engine has been entirely disassembled and cleaned by a garage
- Camshafts SUM-K6901
- Edelbrock performer intake
- Edelbrock 4bbl 500CFM
- everything else is stock (pistons, heads, exhaust, valve...)

What's the estimated HP according to the current engine build?

What should be the next "bolt on" upgrade (1000$ budget) to wake up more the engine? If you have any references do not hesitate.
- Exhaust
- Heads
- ...?

Thank you !
 
Welcome to FABO. I would estimate 250 horsepower. A mild cam like you have and a 4 barrel will wake up a stock 318 a bit. As with any performance build adding parts like headers and cylinder heads will increase power but it all comes at a cost. $1000 will buy you headers and may be some cheap exhaust. $1000 will buy you a pair of Speedmaster heads but not the few hundred you should spend to make sure they are ready to run. If I were you I would bolt together what you have, go through your distributor with a proper advance curve and tune from there. What rear gear and tire size do you have. You can liven up a "teen" with a 3.55 rear gear and still be able to cruise at highway speeds.
 
  • Welcome to the site
  • Sounds like a nice car! Pictures welcome.....
  • Dual exhaust, and headers would be big plus
  • HP ? Not enough info and the tuner will have a lot to do with it.... but I'd throw out South of 300
 
Maybe 220hp as is.

Best thing to do with a $1k hotrod budget, is to put it in a piggy bank and save up enough for more cubes.

If you're set on keeping the 318, a rear gear swap would do a lot of good in the acceleration department.
 
Thanks a lot for these feedback.
As the deal is not yet conclude i'm still missing information.

Here some pictures:
5b60dcb1-49cd-11eb-a987-472c6a6812af
6bbb1d1e-49cd-11eb-9e74-89ae451c9f9c
60d4bd3d-49cd-11eb-a1a0-ddfe0d3ba761
Capture
Capture2
Capture3

The engine has already been assembled with everything and tuned by the garage. So the car is currently properly running. The 3-speeds transmission has also been refreshed, no clue about the rear gear.
As i'm not an expert i don't want to go with swap, i'll leave the 318.
 
Nice car!!!

Best thing to do is get in and drive it awhile. Then you'll know where to start!
 
Hi guys,

First time posting on this nice forum where i spent hours to read threads.
New year gift, i'm about to buy a 1972 Dodge Dart swinger 3-speeds auto trans.
It's in a really good shape but i need advises regarding the engine.
It's a V8 318:
- The engine has been entirely disassembled and cleaned by a garage
- Camshafts SUM-K6901
- Edelbrock performer intake
- Edelbrock 4bbl 500CFM
- everything else is stock (pistons, heads, exhaust, valve...)

What's the estimated HP according to the current engine build?

What should be the next "bolt on" upgrade (1000$ budget) to wake up more the engine? If you have any references do not hesitate.
- Exhaust
- Heads
- ...?

Thank you !


Heres a stock 318 longblock with cam 4bbl and headers made 282hp @ 5000 rpm, imgine around the same for you.

318 Long Block Bolt Ons - Tech Articles - Mopar Muscle Magazine
 
Engine power wise, headers and dual exhaust. Here in the USofA, a company called Summit racing
( Summit Racing | Aftermarket Parts & Accessories, OEM Auto Parts )

Has a very nice dual exhaust system that bolts together nicely with the recommended headers. Use the 2-1/2 size pipe. I selected the kit without mufflers and ordered the Summit brand turbo muffler because it doesn’t neck down in tube size inside the muffler. It is 2-1/2 all the way through. Very good fit, minor trimming/cutting of the pipes for a near perfect fit, easy to install yourself, sounds great and ready for 400+ hp.

For the cars acceleration, off the line, more gear is the way to go. Numerically raising the ratio, in example, 2.76 gears to 3.55 gears allows you to get up and going faster, but may limit top end speed or hinder Hwy cruising since you’ll cruise at a higher rpm. When you do the gear change, LOL, you may want to get wider tires...


But one step at a time.
 
Summit Racing Part Number: SUM-6901
Cam Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,800-5,500
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 218 int./228 exh.
Advertised Duration: 276 int./288 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees): 114

Lifts with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.441/0.441 in


Ouch;Those are some really,really long ramps; that's gonna "bleed" some pressure!
Hopefully you are at close to sealevel, cuz the bottom end power is gonna feel like a slanty. There is no cheap cure for that, so since it is together, just drive it and see how bad it is.
 
Yea, that 114 could use a 11-1 ratio....
 
What should be the next "bolt on" upgrade (1000$ budget) to wake up more the engine? If you have any references do not hesitate.

to wake up the bottom end; you will need more cylinder pressure.
You could do this with either a solid-lifter shorter advertised period cam, or with more Compression ratio.
Failing that; you may have to install a higher-stall Convertor ... like a 2800 . This will allow your engine not to have to work in that low-power, mushy zone.
But if it's Performance you want, then you need some Torque-Multiplication, which points straight to performance rear gears, like 4.10s with that K6901 cam. A cam with less advertised duration would be OK with both less stall and less rear gear.

See, here's how this works; I suppose it would be possible to obtain 10 or more cams, all of the same/similar, .050 numbers like your 218/228. That means, most of those cams are gonna make about the same power.

But the advertised durations could range from a huge 276/288 like your 6901, to a minimum of around 258/266.
And the LSA or Lobe Separation Angles could be as wide as 114* like that Summit, or as narrow as 106*

These latter numbers, are gonna affect; the idle quality, idle-speed, low rpm power/torque, and sub 3000 driveability; which with 2.76s goes out to 3000~28mph.
Your 6901 cam was designed to sound big, have a broad powerband, be easy on the valve-train, and last a long time. But that same cam wants to be in a much higher compression ratio engine. And the reason is that at low rpm, the long advertised intake duration delays the trapping of cylinder pressure, so it comes in at a weak number, and the 114LSA only aggravates the situation. IMO, looking at the specs, it is a terrible cam to put into an already low-pressure 8/1 Scr street-318.. But if the idle-sound is what you're after, then it will be a good cam (54* overlap); so long as you stall and gear it to minimize it's weaknesses.
The good news is that the early Swingers were pretty light to start with. My 1970 was 3310 with skinny 17year old me in it. The car was 3200 on the track-scales. So they are not that hard to get moving.

As for me, I would pull that cam out, before it's broke in.
In an 8/1- 318 I would run a fast rate of lift, short advertised period, tight-lash, hi-lift , solid-lifter cam; and I would NOT care what it sounds like. I would still run the 2800 TC cuz I love that thing in a 318. And I would gear it to run outta revs in second gear at about 50/55 mph, which will probably be 3.73s to 3.91s; depends on tire size and where the power-peak comes in. I would get that cam on a 108 for a couple of hundred rpm on the top, to stretch my chosen gears out to 60mph.
For a Street-Performance 318, that's what I would do. Well, actually, I would pump up the pressure first, lol. But I get that not everybody chooses that path. Which is really too bad because that low static compression ratio is the 318s biggest handicap to making low-rpm power.

Here is something to think about; your 318 with a composition headgasket is gonna come in at about 7.8Scr. and in France I'm gonna do all calculations at 200ft elevation. With that 6901 cam, the specs are 276/288/114+4 and the Ica comes to 68*. Loading those into the Wallace calculator, I get;
Dcr of 6.07 @112 cranking cylinder pressure, and a VP of a mere 80, like a stock 225 slanty; so at low rpm, your 318 is gonna feel like a stock slanty. Yes at 4800/5000 the [email protected] will make some power, but not a whole bunch.
Ok lets take that cam outta there and install a solid-lifter cam of the same 218, but with an after lash Ica of 56*. this will make the same power at 4800/5000. The new numbers are; Dcr of 6.6, pressure of 126, and VP of 100. That is a 100/80=25% increase of low-rpm performance.
Next, let's pump up the Scr to 9.5 with this solid-lifter cam, and the numbers are Dcr of 8.0, pressure of 163, and VP of 129. Now 129/80=plus 61% ! That's what pressure can do for you.
Now you can go bigger on the cam, say 1 size , and pump up the pressure to 9.8Scr, and the new numbers are Dcr of 8.0, pressure of 164, and VP drops to only 126. But the bigger cam will make another 15 or more hp.
Read about VP here; V/P Index Calculation

I know your engine is already assembled, and it might sound callous of me to print these numbers, but your thread has a good title, and new members will be finding it with the Search feature, for decades to come; so this post is more for future readers.
 
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4.10’s?!?! Ouch!

3.23/3.21 minimum with the stock tire.
3.55’s preferred, stock or slightly taller tire.
 
Hi guys,

First time posting on this nice forum where i spent hours to read threads.
New year gift, i'm about to buy a 1972 Dodge Dart swinger 3-speeds auto trans.
It's in a really good shape but i need advises regarding the engine.
It's a V8 318:
- The engine has been entirely disassembled and cleaned by a garage
- Camshafts SUM-K6901
- Edelbrock performer intake
- Edelbrock 4bbl 500CFM
- everything else is stock (pistons, heads, exhaust, valve...)

What's the estimated HP according to the current engine build?

What should be the next "bolt on" upgrade (1000$ budget) to wake up more the engine? If you have any references do not hesitate.
- Exhaust
- Heads
- ...?

Thank you !


302 casting heads, with mild port work and gasket match, and 3.23/3.55 gears. Probably the two best bangs for your buck I can think of.
 
Just mill the heads you have, they probably 68cc stock "675" heads? Mill .030 off for a 62cc chamber 'at the most'.
Dont bother spending on another head that flows worse without modifying it first when you have a good flowing '318 head' already that can be milled. To really make it worth while.. you would set it up for quench *with different pistons altogether.

Dont overthink the cam.
 
Dear all,

Many thanks for your well appreciated feedback! (even if some sounds like Chinese to me :D ).
I had a run with the car yesterday and everything goes well (excepted a permanent « tick tick tick », sounds like a push rod issue or something like that, needs to be investigated).
The good news is i had a better price from the vendor so from a budget perspective i can go farther for first step enhancements.

Reminder, i’m a beginner on such engine so i want to go with "bot-on" upgrades at a first time (no mill etc...)

What i’m looking currently is to add the following: the goal remain to have a punchy street car with limited budget:

Engine :
- Edelbrock 60779 - Edelbrock Performer RPM Cylinder Heads
- Edelbrock 8555 - Edelbrock Head Bolt Kits
- Fel-Pro 1008 - Fel-Pro Performance Head Gaskets
- Pistons will remain stock
-> Does these heads makes sens to you according the build direction?

It will be the opportunity to change the cam. What’s your recommendation ?
It’s still really a pain to me to well understand what to do with rocker arms, valves and push rods - can we keep everything stock or upgrades are mandatory?

Exhaust : on-budget upgrades :
- Summit Racing SUM-680144 - Summit Racing® Header-Back Dual Exhaust Systems
- Summit Racing SUM-G9040 - Summit Racing® Headers

Gears will be reworked during next steps.

Thanks !
 
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60779 heads are advertised at 63cc..... of alloy.
With FLAT-TOP pistons down .057, in the 3.91 holes, that would be 11.2cc, add 8.77cc for your gaskets, and 63cc for the heads,; and your 318 gets a new Scr of (652+83)/83= about 8.8 .....This is a huge improvement from the nominal 8.0 of the factory.
>However, the alloy heads have the somewhat un-enviable characteristic of being able to transfer heat OUT of the chambers much more efficiently than iron. Heat is power. We have heard it said, that at WOT, this is worth 1/2 point in compression. If that is true than your 8.8 is gonna operate like 8.3@WOT.
>However, at Part throttle, the loss will translate to be more. And this is why with alloys, on the street, we need to run more Scr/ higher pressures. That extra .8 Scr will not translate to much of a power increase if at all. And even if it did, the increase of WOT power is said to be less than 4% per point of compression increase, so on a 200hp engine, that translates to .8x4%x200=6.4hp, at say 4400rpm! with the stock cam; which with 3.55s will be at around 34mph, in first gear............. For what cost, again?
>But if alloy heads suck heat at PT, then you lose torque/power in that mode..
This is irrespective of the better flowing ports, and valves.
Now if you combine that with a later closing intake valve, you get a double-whammy of low-rpm torque loss.
SO;
>With 3.55s, 3200rpm with 26.5 tires comes to 29mph at zero slip. Dial in some throttle and say 26 @10% slip. To compensate for that torque loss, you would need a higher stall TC. At WOT, thru the power curve, you might break even in power-production, due to the better ports and bigger valves. Is it worth the buy-in? Not to me and not by a longshot.
>If you cannot budget for; an after-cam FINAL Dcr around 9.0,and a pressure up or over 180psi, with alloy heads, then I recommend to stick with an iron head. You'll be bucks ahead and end up with more PT torque.
 
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>Increased power production requires the burning of more fuel, and
that leads to the requirement of more air. More fuel is easy. But getting that increase of air into and thru the engine, is what hotrodding is all about.
>If it's low-rpm power you want; your choices are;
more cubes, or more pressure. You can get more pressure two or three ways; more Scr, more Dcr/ earlier closing intake, or supercharging.
For hi-rpm power;
Pressure is less important, Now mass air flow and cylinder filling is more important.
For midrange; all three come into play
To bandaid a low-rpm power problem, you can use either more stall or more gear, or some combination of the two.
>For a hi-perf streeter, it makes no sense to build a 300hp engine,only to
to choke it with a 150hp exhaust system; or
to sacrifice low-rpm power; or
to gear it so that the power does not come around until 30 or 40 mph; or
to saddle a low-torque engine with a low-stall TC; or
to force it to pull a lotta weight.
>IMO, OP, you are wanting one thing, but the rest of your combo is counter to what you are intending to do. Do not confuse a high horsepower number as being synonymous with your car being fun to drive. If the power doesn't come around until 4400, and your car is stuck at 3000 because of the gearing, well, need I say more?
This is how the formula works;
{(Torque x rpm) /5250 }= horsepower..
Hi horsepower, in a small engine, always requires the shifting of power away from the low-rpm, to get that magic hi-rpm power number you are chasing.
 
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>To try and compensate for the alloys propensity to get rid of heat, I run mine at a minimum coolant temp of 205*F, and run unwrapped headers, to try and increase the underhood temps, to reduce the delta-T. That way, when I nail it, I can expect the engine to have some snap. But those temperature regulation measures come with there own problems to solve.
>The most fun car combo I ever had was a hi-compression 340 bottom-end, with a 318 top-end, including the 2bbl and 318 cam, a 273 trans/TC, stuffed into a Lightweight-A, with small-diameter tires, 3.23s, and a hi-flo exhaust system. Why? Because that is what I had at age 20. That stationwagon was a dynomite fun car.
For you, OP, without a hi-Dcr,
I would start with a 2800TC, big rear gears, then a hi-flow dual exhaust. I have several times, put 3.91s to even 4.30s, behind otherwise stock 318s, in street-As, and have never had a comeback; only impressed customers and friends. The thing is, no matter what you do to your 318, you will HAVE to do the TC and gear thing sooner or later, and the hi-flow exhaust; so you might as well do them first; cuz later, you will be too broke to do it, and your low-Dcr 318 will be a huge disappointment.
I've been down that road a time or two ........... lo-Dcr 318s, with lo-stall TCs, and hi-way gears, just suck, I don't care how much NA power they make.
AS always, I'm jusy trying to help, and to try and save you some heartaches; been there done that.
 
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Impressive and clear, many thanks. I’m gonna seriously think about this 2800TC and 3.55 gear ratio. But it seems to be something i can’t do by myself.

Indeed low rpm power/TQ is prefered as i want something fun to drive.

Well, imagine that 2800TC and gear ration are setup, what will be the next steps?
- you mentionned a better cam. What’s the best to go according to you to replace the existing one?
- a good exhaust system, for example the one mentionned by rumblefish360
- then start to work with CR (mill stock 318 68cc heads to get 62cc chambers), it seems to be the best bang for buck to start
- then think about replace the heads, piston/valve train etc...

thanks!
 
what will be the next steps?
Yur getting ahead of yourself again, lol.
Install the TC and the gears. Then drive it.
The driving experience will tell you where you want more power to be.
Maybe the combo will want more power off the line.
Maybe second gear will be weak, somewhere in the rpm band.
Maybe you will want more passing power.
Maybe you won't be able to stand buzzing down the hiway
Maybe the power will crash when she hits third gear.
I mean I know what my needs would be, but only you know what yours are.
After you have chosen/installed the gears, and the hi-stall TC, the next step is a small-port intake and a small 4bbl, PLUS a free-flowing exhaust; you know; more air in/more air out. And a fresh-air system. By now, your 318 combo will be pretty scrappy; just maybe it will be scrappy enough for you.
Drive it. start a log-book. detail the combo's shortcomings and it's strengths.
Remind me what gears are currently in it.
 
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No no, i got your point. That’s just because they are some things i cannot do by myself, e.g gear, TC, head mill and i’ll need my garage involved. And other i’m more confortable to do, cam etc... so depending on my garage ´s schedule, i can start thinking/work ahead on other stuff
 
I would like you to see something.
Go get a sheet of paper and strike a horizontal line across near the bottom, labeling it miles per hour, with zero on the left and on the right side, ending at 90 on the right.
Then divide that line into equal parts representing 10 mph each.
Strike a vertical line, up the left side, near the edge, and label it rpm, with zero where it crosses the horizontal line and 6000 at the top. Divide that line into equal parts representing 1000 rpm each.
Finally, estimate where 4400 rpm is, and from there strike a second horizontal line across to the right.
Now, lets put some data points on the 4400 line; which represents about peak power of the stock 318

You are gonna have to generate your data points in the following way;
You need to figure out your roadspeed at 4400 rpm, in each gear using your chosen rear gear and your chosen tire diameter. I will give you an example for 3.55s and a 25.5 tire;
The formula requires a tire roll-out so multiply your diameter by 3.1416 to get it. I will use a 25.5 tire which has a roll-out of 80 inches.
The formula also requires you to know your trans ratios, which for the standard 904/727, are 2.45-1.45-1.00
The formula also requires you to know the Slip in the TC, but we will just use 10% .
And we will need the rear gear; I will use 3.55s.
Here is the Formula
MPH= (rpm x Tc/roll-out)/ {the constant of1056 xR1 x R2}

where the Rs are the gears, and Tc is the roll-out
example
MPH = (4400 x80)/(1056 x2.45Low gear x3.55rear gear)
MPH= 352000/9484.56
MPH =37.1 mph; Likewise second at 4400 is 64.9mph, and direct is 93.5
Now we will just reduce all of those to account for the 10% theoretical slip in the Convertor, so I get;
33.4, 58.4, and 84.2 ; Plot those mph points on the 4400 rpm line.
Next strike lines from the zero-zero point in the bottom left corner, thru the data points and continue out to the 6000 line; all three times.
From those data-points on the 4400 line drop vertical lines to the lowest diagonal line.
What you should end up with is a sawtooth pattern representing your mph for any given roadspeed in any chosen gear, AND the vertical drops represent the shift points about thru the power peaks; not the actual shift points you would use.
Next, go find 32mph, and from there, strike a vertical line up thru the three diagonal lines. Do the same at 55mph.
Now you can see exactly what your rpm is gonna be in each gear, at those chosen markers of 32 and 55 mph.
Your engine is gonna be seeing those markers too, and if she cannot find a satisfactory rpm from which to pull from, in any gear at those data points, your combo will suffer a perceived laziness.
But Hang on; you have an automatic, so we have one more line to work out.
Climb up the Rpm line to 2200, or to about what your current stall is. Put a mark there, and connect it to the 4400 mark, and continue it out to 5500 and just let it hang there. Now, ignore the next nearest diagonal line below it, which would be correct for a manual trans (Allbeit slipping 10%,lol), make sure your 32 mph vertical marker-line crosses this new line.
Ok, I'm not making this graph here at home, so tell me at what rpm does the 32mph marker cross first and second gear, and
at what rpm does the 55mph marker cross second and third.
These two rpms per marker will represent the rpms at which you will be cruising, and the rpms to which Kickdown will go when you slam the pedal down. The first (32mph) is where you are gonna be most of the time, and the second (55) is for when you get stuck behind some slowpoke on the hiway, and want to know if it pays to force a kickdown.
You can plot your own personal markers where ever you like.
Now,
the analysis;
If your 2-1 KD at 32 mph , makes the rpm to be too high, then it will just shift right back into second, and there you are stuck in second gear at 59% of whatever it shifted out at. That gets old in a hurry, if your engine has no juice down there.
But if at 32mph in second, the KD into low makes the rpm to be too low,then you are again asking your engine to provide what it does not have.
Now maybe you understand about pressure.

So now, on the same chart, generate some new points using whatever rear gear you think you might entertain, or look at the numbers on the current chart, and theorize what might be a better rpm to be at, and generate a % difference, from where you are to where you want to be, and use that % to generate a new rear gear, then round that gear to the nearest physically available gear. And then generate a new graph.
If this all seems Greek to you, then PM me and we'll walk thru some examples together.
 
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I have just rebuilt my 318 for my 1980 Chrysler Regal Special Edition. Why a 318? It is the original engine, numbers matching ELB. I have a 410 in my charger and have been upgrading it over the years so collecting the parts that came out of it. The engine specs are as follows: KB 167 pistons 40 thou over (326 cu ins) Cam is a summit 6900 204/214 @ 50 thou and 470 lift (1.6 roller rockers) with 112 lobe sep. The heads are my old edelbrocks that I home ported and ran a best of 11.4 qtr. They have 2.05 inlets and 61 cc chambers so will give 9.88 comp. Using my old 2 5/8 extractors into a twin 2.5 inch system. Diff ratio is 2.92 on 24.5 inch tall tyres with 727 torqueflight. Have wiehand dual plane intake with 650 AVS 2 carb into factory cold air induction. I have started and run the cam in but have had transmission issues that I am sorting out, so have not driven it yet. I don't need a performance car with this one, just a cruiser but with all these engine mods and 326 cu ins I think that it will perform just like a good 340. What do you guys think?
 
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