360 Over heating

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dart_68

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Seem to have an over heating problem. Can't keep the engine below 210 when cruising around town. Heats up pretty quickly so my "cruising" is pretty limited. It's a 360 that's not stock but still pretty mild. I'd be ecstatic if it made 300 hp. There's no mechanical fan only a 16" thermostatically controlled electric fan. The fan is mounted in front of the radiator and I've read that it's possible that it's blocking some air flow so I've thought about mounting a fan behind. Also, I've wondered if it might be necessary to upgrade to a HV water pump. You can see the setup in the pic below. A word of explanation: you should notice that the radiator is not directly mounted to the frame but space out about 1.5". This is because I found out too late that the electric fan was too thick to mount behind the radiator and I couldn't return it. In order to mount it where it is I had to move the rad back that 1.5" so the fan would clear a bracket just behind the grill. Also, there is a trans cooler in front of but not mounted to the rad.

I would think this setup with this engine shouldn't have any cooling problems. I would appreciate any thoughts or insight on how to address my problem.

Thanks in advance.

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I run an electric fan with a shroud behind the radiator. I did have a thermal switch to control the fan but with a different intake, wired the fan to ign. power so it’s on if the engine is running.
I’m using a high flow pump also.

You may want to add a shroud.

I am also using a trans cooler.

I’ll post a photo later

No overheating issues.
 
What thermostate are you using? I'm running a 360-magnum pushing 470 hp. My electric fan is between the rad and motor. I don't run a thermostate I run a restrictor plate with a 3/4-inch hole for flow and run at 190 to 195 at idle and 185 to 190 at speed. I hope this helps you may just have a bad thermo. Mike

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Seem to have an over heating problem. Can't keep the engine below 210 when cruising around town. Heats up pretty quickly so my "cruising" is pretty limited. It's a 360 that's not stock but still pretty mild. I'd be ecstatic if it made 300 hp. There's no mechanical fan only a 16" thermostatically controlled electric fan. The fan is mounted in front of the radiator and I've read that it's possible that it's blocking some air flow so I've thought about mounting a fan behind. Also, I've wondered if it might be necessary to upgrade to a HV water pump. You can see the setup in the pic below. A word of explanation: you should notice that the radiator is not directly mounted to the frame but space out about 1.5". This is because I found out too late that the electric fan was too thick to mount behind the radiator and I couldn't return it. In order to mount it where it is I had to move the rad back that 1.5" so the fan would clear a bracket just behind the grill. Also, there is a trans cooler in front of but not mounted to the rad.

I would think this setup with this engine shouldn't have any cooling problems. I would appreciate any thoughts or insight on how to address my problem.

Thanks in advance.

View attachment 1716287330
I see a couple of things.
1.) You want the radiator mounted as tightly to the radiator yoke as possible, otherwise the air will take the path of least resistance and just flow around the radiator. (and a shroud will do you no good without a fan on the engine side of the rad.)
2.) I can't really see the fan, but just be aware that most of the generic and not-so generic fans actually have pretty pitiful airflow numbers.
3.) If you just took your puller fan and mounted it in front of the radiator, it's moving air in the wrong direction. You need a pusher fan. Some kits are able to be rewired to reverse the rotation, some can't. You didn't mention if this was done or not.
 
What's your Idle Timing? and
How much is in the VA? and
What's the stall? and
what's the operating Elervation, and
what's your Cranking Cylinder Pressure?

BTW; My 367 has been running rock-steady at 207 since about 2005.
 
Ditch the electric and get an appropriate mechanical fan.

Then enjoy your car.
 
If the rad is relatively new, it should be ok. If it is old or done a lot of miles, it could be blocked with sediment & should be checked out for flow.

One GLARING problem I see is the big gap between the rad & the rad support panel. The incoming air is going to take a short cut through the gap, & not pass through the rad core as needed.
Either flush mount the rad.....or block off the gaps. Try this first.
 
Ditto on baffles so air goes through versus around the rad.

If it was intended to be a "puller"/behind the rad, did you change the fan polarity (flip red and black on the fan motor) to run it as a "pusher"? If not, the fan is working against you. What is the part number for the fan and where did you get it?
The fan does not need to be centered, so you may be able to offset enough to get clearance to run it behind the rad. You would be better off with a higher output/amp draw but smaller, thicker fan or engine direct driven flex fan (not aluminum blades that will let go, but thin stainless) and a spacer to get it close if no shroud and provide alternator clearance to the blades at high pitch/low rpm. It does not need to be a rigid oem fan with a clutch hub. The blades flatten out as the rpm increases.
 
Just by looking at that photo I knew that engine would run hot. As stated by others, the radiator has to be flush with the radiator support or air will just go around instead of through it at speed. A lot of the aftermarket electric fans can't really keep an engine cool, I have been there and done that, and eventually just went back to a clutch with a mechanical fan and shroud. Nothing beats a mechanical fan with a good properly sized and sealed shroud to keep and engine running cool. I know that you do not want to throw money away with that fan, but you may just have to ditch it. I would put the radiator back to where it should be, and if you want to keep the electric fan, see if you can offset it enough so that the motor clears your water pump pulley, the fan does not need to be exactly in the center of the radiator to be effective, if you cannot get it to fit then you might just have to sell it to someone that can use it.
 
I had an overheating issue That baffled me. It ended up being the aluminum radiator . It was a large Be-cool I thought was clogged. Had it acid cleaned and flushed. Flowed water great.

Ended up being air flow. That radiator at some time either frooze or was over pressured from Head gasket letting go under boost. The tubes were no longer oval they were round. You could not see light through the radiator at all. So it wasn't flowing air.
 
I would think this setup with this engine shouldn't have any cooling problems. I would appreciate any thoughts or insight on how to address my problem.

Actually, as you have found out, it's a terrible set up.
My thought is to return it to stock.
My insight is to respect the OEM design.
My thought is;
I would set it up with a big 7-blade direct drive fan in a matching shroud, and jam that rad up tight against the core-support. Then, when you have figured out what works, only then can you start experimenting, cuz after that, everything will be a compromise.

BTW-1
check out your Air-cleaner. It is sucking HOT air in an endless loop , round and round goes the heat, hotter and hotter goes the coolant.
BTW-2
Nothing builds heat better than retarded low-rpm ignition timing.
At idle, your engine may want 25 to 35, or more degrees of timing. It will tell you so by increasing in rpm continuously as you add timing, until it plateaus. As it does this, it will make ever more idle-power. which is gonna cause other issues so you can't really run a 300hp engine at those big numbers, nor should you want to, cuz as soon as you put it into gear, with a stock-type convertor, it'll probable either bang into gear or stall. >>The point is that choosing an idle timing number is always a compromise.
> the first time an engine really cares about timing is at Convertor Stall. She wants as much as possible until she detonates when you floor it. Depending on the stall-rpm, and combustion-chamber design, and the air-temp going into the airhorn, this max WOT timing could be anywhere between say 18* to even 35* degrees. The more the engine likes, without detonating, the more torque it will make, and the harder it will take off. But if it detonates too hard or for too long, engine-parts break or burn up. So then, every precaution has to be taken to prevent detonation.
And of course iron-headed street-SBMs don't usually like more than about 35* Power timing, usually no earlier than about 3400rpm. and seriously, there is no point in pushing that edge, cuz with street gears, and topping out at 65 mph, you'll never feel those last three degrees, cuz you'll be lucky to see 7hp out of it, and the long term risks are just not worth it..... IMO..

The point is this; as far as I'm concerned , at your power level, your engine needs a two-stage timing curve. Stage 1 is from idle to stall, and stage 2 is from stall to 3400. Your combo does not need nor want 20 degrees at idle; but it does want more than 5 degrees. Typically, for 300 hp, 8 to 14 is gonna be well-received. But what you can actually run, will depend on what she wants at stall, and that will depend on the actual stall-rpm.
The whole point is, that if you got a good ear, you might be able to push the detonation edge; but for most of us, minus 3 degrees will be close enough. and
YOUR engine is not your buddies engine. Your engine will tell you when it gets too much so don't go there.
A smarter than me man(there are lots of those) once told me, that among 10 identically built assembly line engines, you can always count on one being noticeably more powerful than the others, and one will be less, and 8 will actually be close to the same.
Now I don't build engines for a living, so I cannot attest to that. But I can tell you that of all the five stock engines I have ever had, over 54 years now, that is probably close to true.
So, Just cuz your buddy runs 20* of idle timing on what you might think is an identical engine to yours, does Not mean yours will like it. Engines are like women; some are high maintenance, some low, and the rest well, you get it. Ok enough of that crap.

Back to ignition timing;
For most of us, well maybe just me IDK, the number one timing deal is to pick a Power-Timing number that you know will NOT WOT-detonate at some reasonably low rpm number, like 3400, and stick to it.
Then
from your known convertor stall rpm, figure out how much timing your engine will tolerate there, by experimentation, and write it down
Then
work out your Idle timing by first setting the Transfer-slot exposure required to eliminate the tip-in sag that, when it happens, is guaranteed to aggravate the crap out of you. and Second set the Idle rpm with timing, to as low as might be required to not bang into gear, but just high enough to not stall when you put her into gear.
Thus you have three known to be accurate timings, and all you gotta do is connect the dots by modifying your distributor. If that is beyond your capabilities, just send it out to somebody with a distributor machine, and presto! when it comes back, you are done ........ at least as to power timing. This leaves you, with the comparatively easy job of setting up your VA.
now, here is something you need to know;
If your Idle-Timing is TOO RETARDED, the fuel mixture in the combustion chamber will take longer to finish burning. This will then heat up the cylinder walls, which heat the cooling system will then have to deal with. That heat should have been used to propel the vehicle. any extra, should have been sent out the into the exhaust, but NOT while it is still burning. So then, Idle timing needs to be as high as is possible, yet not higher than might upset the first two parameters of T-Port- sync and banging into gear. There is a fly in this ointment which is cylinder pressure. If your pressure is very low, then heat of compression will be low, and the engine will naturally run cooler, at idle. But as the pressure rises, which it has to, make power later in the rpm band, the engine will make more heat even at idle. So then, your cooling system has to be able to deal with that, and
as you have found out, your way sucks. Not many guys will run an electric fan, on the street, in the heat of the summer, especially not as inefficiently as yours is set-up. Hey, I'm not attacking you personally, maybe/probably, you didn't know. As others have pointed out, you got some work to do, to bring your system up to speed, and forever after you will be monitoring your sloooow to respond temp gauge. While ypu got one eye on the gauge all the time, who, I say WHO, is driving distracted?
IMO,
Do yourself a favor and just switch to the tried and true direct-drive mechanical fan, inside a shroud, behind a sealed to the core-support, rad. Align your pulleys, tighten the New belt, and just go drive.
After you see how wonderful it is to cruise worry-free, THEN you can start reducing efficiency, on purpose, to some compromised level, that maybe gets you seven more hp at 5000rpm, which rpm you almost never go to, and if you do, it's like for two seconds at the top of First gear. Whereas the vast majority of the engines life will be spent at less than about 3500, so I mean, that low rpm cooling, is or should be, top priority.
Yeah I know, people tell me I'm too abrasive; and for that, I'm sorry. Listen; I'm old, old people get that way. Now;
go buy a used big 7-blade all steel factory A/C fan, off a 70s Dart, and install it on a new Ford pick-up Thermostatic clutch, and push that rad into the core support, and I don't care how retarded you idle that engine, your overheating days will be history .
 
Clutch fans are phenomenal for your sort of build. I'd run one and ditch the electric fan.
 
said that last night but no response and the rad needs to be closed in to get air thru it.
 
Thanks for all the replies. A couple of things have been said that I was leaning towards and a lot of other useful info. Engine is able to maintain temp while idling but it's when I run it down the road it gets hot.

To address some things;
The fan is set up to push, not pull and confirmed to be doing so. It's thermostatically controlled to come on @ 180 and does according to my temp gauge.
Idle timing is 16 deg initial with 35 all in by 2500.
Thermostat does open but maybe it's not opening fully. I may have to remove it and test it in hot water to see.
The fan is not centered as it is mounted (16") but even fully offset it was too thick to fit behind the rad.

I've thought about going to a 7 blade clutch fan and shroud but I might have to custom make a shroud to fit this rad. First thing I plan to do is remount the rad correctly and TRY to see if I can fiddle around to get the current fan to work. If not, I'll explore my other options.
 
Sounds like your on the road to recovery very good. Happy motoring. Run well my friend,
 
Often, cooling problems are more than 'thing' [ pump pulley too small, t'stat not opening fully etc ]. If you can find 4 problems that each reduce temp by 5*, you have reduced temps by 20*.
More info here: www.stewartcomponents.com
 
Would it be possible to temporarily remove the grill and/or bracket and move the radiator forward so it's flush with the support, and drive it around and see if there's a difference?
 
Would it be possible to temporarily remove the grill and/or bracket and move the radiator forward so it's flush with the support, and drive it around and see if there's a difference?
That's might be possible but I've already removed the fan and remounted the rad. Unfortunately, the fan still won't fit behind the rad.
 
Is it a high flow thermostat? Opening should be 1 7/16" EMP/Stewart thermostat cured my hot issues with a 383.
 
That's might be possible but I've already removed the fan and remounted the rad. Unfortunately, the fan still won't fit behind the rad
Post some photos of rad properly mounted.

Also the electric fan does not need to be centered. It can be off to one side enough to clear the water pump.
 
Update:

Got the rad moved and a new fan. Ran it in my driveway but haven't had a chance to take it for a spin. Fan blows (pulls) a ton of air through rad. We'll see how it does. I couldn't move the original fan because there wasn't enough room behind the rad even offset. It was just too big and to thick. Got some pics of the new fan compared to the old one and a pic of the completed new install.

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My money is that the engine will run normal at speed but your going to have issues idleling
 
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