360 stalls on deceleration from throttle blip

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dan0340

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Hey everyone, so I have a 1973 Duster I’m trying to work on with my son for his first car. I posted another question about the temp sensor but now have another question. This car needs a ton of work. It has a 360la motor that was installed before I got it from another unknown vehicle. I had to go through all the wiring as it was really rough. I also had to install a new distributor because the HEI one they had installed with the coil built into the cap was too big and hit the fire wall so couldn’t advance timing. I installed a new one with smaller cap and coil separate. I have the timing set to 12 advance. The engine seems to idle well at about 850rpm. It has an edlebrock 4 barrel carb I think a 1408. I have the screws backed out about 2 and 3/4 turns. It’s a 904 auto. What it’s doing is when it’s in drive at slow speed if I hit the throttle fast and let off fast the car dies when I let off fast. It seems like rpm drops way low and stalls. It drives fine otherwise but again if I blip the throttle on the deceleration side it stalls. Any idea where I should start to take care of this?
 
Depending on what compression the engine is and what camshaft is installed you could need a bit more initial timing. I would try that first, since it's free, fast and easily reversible.
 
Ok so I bumped it up to 15 still doing it. Should I try higher? I don’t know anything about the rebuilt motor as far as cams. I suppose I should check compression, I did notice some aftermarket rockers when I pulled the valve cover to get TDC when I went to install new distributor so work was done to it. I know the previous owner ported and polished the heads. I don’t have a tac installed I just know the rpm from timing gun at idle but it seems to drop quite a bit in drive and also that seems to be what is happening after I blip the throttle and let off the gas fast the rpm drops way low though I don’t know how low without a tac.

IMG_0012.jpeg
 
My guess is that your
Engine went rich from getting too much fuel, that there is now liquid fuel just laying on the intake floor, and throttle is Too Far Closed to deal with the migrating/evaporating fuel.
IMO; here are your options; do as many as it takes to solve the problem.

First;
1) make sure the choke is fully off and stays off, and
2) if you have the stock factory cast iron intake, make sure the carb-heating Crossover is working, and make sure the throttle return spring is not something off a Mack truck! then
3) make sure the Wet fuel level is as specified by the manufacturer of the carb.
4) make sure the metering rods are staying down at idle, and are reluctant to jump up when cracking the throttle in Park/Neutral, with no load on the crank.
If yours jump up instantly one of three things is wrong; A) the springs under the pistons are too powerful or B) there is a load on the crank, or C) the exhaust is restricted. See below;
5) Increase the curb idle screw at least one full turn.
6) Decrease the Mixture screw adjustment 1/4 turn each, and
7) Then retard the timing to whatever it takes to idle at not more than 800, or down to 5 degrees Idle-timing, whichever comes first.
If you retard the Idle-Timing, then you may have to recurve your distributor.
DO NOT, let anybody preach to you that you need 18 degrees of idle-timing with a stock low-stall convertor. That's just looking for trouble.
8) Decrease the accelerator pump shot
9) open the plug gap to .045, and get a coil that can consistently fire that. I suggest the Big Yellow Square-top Accel SuperCoil.
10) If you have log-manifolds and a single exhaust, criminy, put the 2-barrel back on.



Hints;
>If you suspect there is a load on the crank;
get the rear wheels off the ground, and slap the throttle. If the problem goes away, Badaboom!
>If you suspect a restricted exhaust;
plumb a low-pressure gauge into the pipe just ahead of the muffler, then take the car for a road test. No matter how hard you try, in at least two gears, the pressure should not exceed 4psi. If it does, replumb your gauge to the rear side of the muffler. If the pressure is considerably less there, than what you measured in the front of it, cut the muffler out and retry.
>The big deal here is that the engine went rich at the throttle slap, and the throttle closed too far and/or too fast to deal with emptying out the intake, after the slap.
--------------------------------
Lemmee tell you something;
If you bring your Duster to me, and I find the following: that
your cam-timing is correct or close to it, and
the cam is a 292/292/108 or less (the biggest I have street-tuned), and
the CCP is even, more than 130psi, and the Leakdown is less than 4%, and
that you are operating between sea-level and 1000ft , and
the engine has no vacuum leaks,
then,
I can guarantee you that,
I can tune your engine to idle just fine, very possibly/probably with as little as 5 degrees of IDLE TIMING, and I will be able to set the idle-rpm down to 550 in gear.
This is NOT A BRAG. This is just a plain fact.
Anybody, and I mean, anybody with a reasonable amount of skill and experience, should be able to do the same.
 
Last edited:
Too rich aft
My guess is that your
Engine went rich from getting too much fuel, that there is now liquid fuel just laying on the intake floor, and throttle is Too Far Closed to deal with the migrating/evaporating fuel.
IMO; here are your options; do as many as it takes to solve the problem.

First;
1) make sure the choke is fully off and stays off, and
2) if you have the stock factory cast iron intake, make sure the carb-heating Crossover is working, and make sure the throttle return spring is not something off a Mack truck! then
3) make sure the Wet fuel level is as specified by the manufacturer of the carb.
4) make sure the metering rods are staying down at idle, and are reluctant to jump up when cracking the throttle in Park/Neutral, with no load on the crank.
If yours jump up instantly one of three things is wrong; A) the springs under the pistons are too powerful or B) there is a load on the crank, or C) the exhaust is restricted. See below;
5) Increase the curb idle screw at least one full turn.
6) Decrease the Mixture screw adjustment 1/4 turn each, and
7) Then retard the timing to whatever it takes to idle at not more than 800, or down to 5 degrees Idle-timing, whichever comes first.
If you retard the Idle-Timing, then you may have to recurve your distributor.
DO NOT, let anybody preach to you that you need 18 degrees of idle-timing with a stock low-stall convertor. That's just looking for trouble.
8) Decrease the accelerator pump shot
9) open the plug gap to .045, and get a coil that can consistently fire that. I suggest the Big Yellow Square-top Accel SuperCoil.
10) If you have log-manifolds and a single exhaust, criminy, put the 2-barrel back on.



Hints;
>If you suspect there is a load on the crank;
get the rear wheels off the ground, and slap the throttle. If the problem goes away, Badaboom!
>If you suspect a restricted exhaust;
plumb a low-pressure gauge into the pipe just ahead of the muffler, then take the car for a road test. No matter how hard you try, in at least two gears, the pressure should not exceed 4psi. If it does, replumb your gauge to the rear side of the muffler. If the pressure is considerably less there, than what you measured in the front of it, cut the muffler out and retry.
>The big deal here is that the engine went rich at the throttle slap, and the throttle closed too far and/or too fast to deal with emptying out the intake, after the slap.
--------------------------------
Lemmee tell you something;
If you bring your Duster to me, and I find the following: that
your cam-timing is correct or close to it, and
the cam is a 292/292/108 or less (the biggest I have street-tuned), and
the CCP is even, more than 130psi, and the Leakdown is less than 4%, and
that you are operating between sea-level and 1000ft , and
the engine has no vacuum leaks,
then,
I can guarantee you that,
I can tune your engine to idle just fine, very possibly/probably with as little as 5 degrees of IDLE TIMING, and I will be able to set the idle-rpm down to 550 in gear.
This is NOT A BRAG. This is just a plain fact.
Anybody, and I mean, anybody with a reasonable amount of skill and experience, should be able to do the same. Running too rich after a quick deceleration makes sense to me. I will try out some of your ideas. Thanks for taking the time to write all that! Also I have an eddlebrock aluminum intake and also duel exhaust with thin walled racing mufflers(which I need to change as they are loud as hell) the guy I bought the car from owned a muffler shop and installed those. I did notice also there is some homemade stuff going on with the throttle assembly, springs and brackets. I’ll post a pic

IMG_0054.jpeg
 
Running too rich after a quick deceleration makes sense to me. I will try out some of your ideas. Thanks for taking the time to write all that! Also I have an eddlebrock aluminum intake and also duel exhaust with thin walled racing mufflers(which I need to change as they are loud as hell) the guy I bought the car from owned a muffler shop and installed those. I did notice also there is some homemade stuff going on with the throttle assembly, springs and brackets. I’ll post a pic

IMG_0054.jpeg
 
Running too rich after a quick deceleration makes sense to me. I will try out some of your ideas. Thanks for taking the time to write all that! Also I have an eddlebrock aluminum intake and also duel exhaust with thin walled racing mufflers(which I need to change as they are loud as hell) the guy I bought the car from owned a muffler shop and installed those. I did notice also there is some homemade stuff going on with the throttle assembly, springs and brackets. I’ll post a pic

View attachment 1716261296
Wow...where to start....
1. Please get the Mopar throttle lever adapter to get proper throttle lever/gas pedal movement.
2. Move distributor vacuum hose to ported vacuum port...you are on manifold vacuum now...could explain timing issues.
3. Install a proper throttle cable bracket.
4. Install correct fast idle link rod.
5. Plastic fuel filter...EGAD!
 
Wow...where to start....
1. Please get the Mopar throttle lever adapter to get proper throttle lever/gas pedal movement.
2. Move distributor vacuum hose to ported vacuum port...you are on manifold vacuum now...could explain timing issues.
3. Install a proper throttle cable bracket.
4. Install correct fast idle link rod.
5. Plastic fuel filter...EGAD!
Yep it’s a project! I new a lot needed to be done when I got it. I’m just starting out. That’s why I posted was to get some pointers where to start. Thanks for those things you mentioned. So question about the vacuum advance line. I haven’t touched it since I got it but I was doing some research and noticed what you were suggesting to move it to the ported but I heard conflicting accounts online. The Eddlebrock manual says the side it is currently on is for non emotions engine. All that stuff has been removed as it’s a 73. But I was unsure as logically I would think it should go to the passenger side in order for vacuum advance to do its job because currently the drivers side hook up would be a vacuum even at idle correct? I’m open to recommendations! I just couldn’t get a clear read online so I appreciate your help. So do you think the current funky linkage could be causing my issue? Perhaps it’s springs back to quickly. Or it could be the vacuum advance issue. I’m just trying to figure out what order to proceed with things
 
Yep it’s a project! I new a lot needed to be done when I got it. I’m just starting out. That’s why I posted was to get some pointers where to start. Thanks for those things you mentioned. So question about the vacuum advance line. I haven’t touched it since I got it but I was doing some research and noticed what you were suggesting to move it to the ported but I heard conflicting accounts online. The Eddlebrock manual says the side it is currently on is for non emotions engine. All that stuff has been removed as it’s a 73. But I was unsure as logically I would think it should go to the passenger side in order for vacuum advance to do its job because currently the drivers side hook up would be a vacuum even at idle correct? I’m open to recommendations! I just couldn’t get a clear read online so I appreciate your help. So do you think the current funky linkage could be causing my issue? Perhaps it’s springs back to quickly. Or it could be the vacuum advance issue. I’m just trying to figure out what order to proceed with things
That’s emissions engines not emotions.. fat fingers, my bad
 
Yep it’s a project! I new a lot needed to be done when I got it. I’m just starting out. That’s why I posted was to get some pointers where to start. Thanks for those things you mentioned. So question about the vacuum advance line. I haven’t touched it since I got it but I was doing some research and noticed what you were suggesting to move it to the ported but I heard conflicting accounts online. The Eddlebrock manual says the side it is currently on is for non emotions engine. All that stuff has been removed as it’s a 73. But I was unsure as logically I would think it should go to the passenger side in order for vacuum advance to do its job because currently the drivers side hook up would be a vacuum even at idle correct? I’m open to recommendations! I just couldn’t get a clear read online so I appreciate your help. So do you think the current funky linkage could be causing my issue? Perhaps it’s springs back to quickly. Or it could be the vacuum advance issue. I’m just trying to figure out what order to proceed with things
Yes...pass side port will be ported vacuum...none at idle. If you're setting your timing with the vac hose connected to the manifold vacuum port, you're getting vacuum advance at idle, which is messing up your readings.
 
Yes...pass side port will be ported vacuum...none at idle. If you're setting your timing with the vac hose connected to the manifold vacuum port, you're getting vacuum advance at idle, which is messing up your readings.
Right but are you saying I should move it over to passenger side and keep it there? It’s not just for setting the timing but should always run with it there?
 
Just a thought, depending on how hard you're hitting the throttle, you may have too high of a float setting in the carb.
 
Absolutely nothing wrong with manifold vacuum on the vacuum advance. I have both my vehicles set up and tuned that way and they run fine.
 
Right but are you saying I should move it over to passenger side and keep it there? It’s not just for setting the timing but should always run with it there?

Here's the scoop
If you are reading the idle timing at 12* with the Vacuum advance hooked to full-time advance ........ Then, when you slap the gas pedal, the manifold vacuum drops towards zero, which instantly retards the vacuum advance timing towards zero.
Suppose your V-can has 14* in it, and you set the base timing to 12*. Then when the VA drops out, you only have MINUS 2 degrees, equals 2 degrees retard, as the engine is taching up. That is awful. That means the timing at the slap is gonna be roughly 22* retarded. and the engine will not only not make power on that, it will not even burn all the gas in the chambers, but the burning will continue in the exhaust system, which I see is log-manifolds. Now If that happens, the logs will become pressurized. Remember I talked about a restricted exhaust? Well, there it is.
But it doesn't stop there. In your case with a pressurized exhaust, the piston has to physically pump the exhaust gasses out. AND, whenever an exhaust valve opens, while operating in this mode, and, the pressure in the log exhaust is greater than the pressure in the cylinder, then the log-exhaust is gonna enter the combustion chamber. If by happenstance you have a cam with a generous amount of overlap, then, on the overlap cycle, that pressure is gonna find it's way into the Intake Manifold, and from there, it is gonna be sent to another cylinder which is on it's intake cycle. When all eight are operating this way, how can the engine possibly continue running? It cannot and so it dies.
Therefore;
just plumb the VA to the spark-port and advance the Idle-Timing to in the window of 8>12, and let's see what happens.
 
Here's the scoop
If you are reading the idle timing at 12* with the Vacuum advance hooked to full-time advance ........ Then, when you slap the gas pedal, the manifold vacuum drops towards zero, which instantly retards the vacuum advance timing towards zero.
Suppose your V-can has 14* in it, and you set the base timing to 12*. Then when the VA drops out, you only have MINUS 2 degrees, equals 2 degrees retard, as the engine is taching up. That is awful. That means the timing at the slap is gonna be roughly 22* retarded. and the engine will not only not make power on that, it will not even burn all the gas in the chambers, but the burning will continue in the exhaust system, which I see is log-manifolds. Now If that happens, the logs will become pressurized. Remember I talked about a restricted exhaust? Well, there it is.
But it doesn't stop there. In your case with a pressurized exhaust, the piston has to physically pump the exhaust gasses out. AND, whenever an exhaust valve opens, while operating in this mode, and, the pressure in the log exhaust is greater than the pressure in the cylinder, then the log-exhaust is gonna enter the combustion chamber. If by happenstance you have a cam with a generous amount of overlap, then, on the overlap cycle, that pressure is gonna find it's way into the Intake Manifold, and from there, it is gonna be sent to another cylinder which is on it's intake cycle. When all eight are operating this way, how can the engine possibly continue running? It cannot and so it dies.
Therefore;
just plumb the VA to the spark-port and advance the Idle-Timing to in the window of 8>12, and let's see what happens.
Well, everything you said made sense to me so I messed around tonight. I changed the vacuum advance to the passenger side. I set the timing 10 degrees advanced tdc. My idle rpm to about 800-850 (the carb screws to 1 1/2 turns out still need to work with those cause I wasn’t getting much rpm change in or out so possibly needing carb cleaning) and bam! The stalling out after fast blip of throttle on deceleration went away. Not only that but I did notice a considerable amount of power increase when I hit the gas. It also is idling really well. I do get some rpm fluctuations but I don’t know if that’s normal? It jumps around + or - 30. Thank you for taking the time to write all that info. When you mentioned the vacuum advance can only has a limited amount of advance say *14 a light went on in my head and it made sense. I’m learning a lot. Thanks for your patience. It sounds like some guys run off the manifold side but in my case your way for whatever reason helped my issue.
Here's the scoop
If you are reading the idle timing at 12* with the Vacuum advance hooked to full-time advance ........ Then, when you slap the gas pedal, the manifold vacuum drops towards zero, which instantly retards the vacuum advance timing towards zero.
Suppose your V-can has 14* in it, and you set the base timing to 12*. Then when the VA drops out, you only have MINUS 2 degrees, equals 2 degrees retard, as the engine is taching up. That is awful. That means the timing at the slap is gonna be roughly 22* retarded. and the engine will not only not make power on that, it will not even burn all the gas in the chambers, but the burning will continue in the exhaust system, which I see is log-manifolds. Now If that happens, the logs will become pressurized. Remember I talked about a restricted exhaust? Well, there it is.
But it doesn't stop there. In your case with a pressurized exhaust, the piston has to physically pump the exhaust gasses out. AND, whenever an exhaust valve opens, while operating in this mode, and, the pressure in the log exhaust is greater than the pressure in the cylinder, then the log-exhaust is gonna enter the combustion chamber. If by happenstance you have a cam with a generous amount of overlap, then, on the overlap cycle, that pressure is gonna find it's way into the Intake Manifold, and from there, it is gonna be sent to another cylinder which is on it's intake cycle. When all eight are operating this way, how can the engine possibly continue running? It cannot and so it dies.
Therefore;
just plumb the VA to the spark-port and advance the Idle-Timing to in the window of 8>12, and let's see what happens.
 
Mine did the exact same after I first started on it. It would run strong but if you hammered it and let off it would die every time and usually be really really hard to start back. It was flooding. I worked on my timing and carburetor. Mine wanted alot more timing. With the carb I took it down one jet size and adjusted the metering rod and air flap it's a thermoquad. Now it's fine. I ended up at 18 initial IIRC. It kept wanting more timing.
 
Here is a short video on mine on what it was doing. You could just tap the throttle and it would die. You can see at the end how hard it was to start back I ended up just rolling it back in the driveway. Tuning the carb and timing fixed it
 
My 340 ran 200K on ported vacuum. Ran great too. After rebuilding it and going with Eddy heads I couldn't get rid of my hesitation. Jetting, checking transfer slots, Recurving the Dizzy. Just went to manifold vacuum and wow what a difference. Now I just have to do some light fine tuning.
 
My 340 ran 200K on ported vacuum. Ran great too. After rebuilding it and going with Eddy heads I couldn't get rid of my hesitation. Jetting, checking transfer slots, Recurving the Dizzy. Just went to manifold vacuum and wow what a difference. Now I just have to do some light fine tuning.
Why do you think mine runs so much better on the ported side of the carb while yours got better on manifold side? Different distributors? I just hear so many different things from people on this. I’m just glad mine is finally running better but I do want to learn the science of it all!
 
I don't know why. Do you have stock iron heads? Alum. heads was the most significant change. Same cam, same Dizzy as before. Older Mopar performance Dizzy for Electronic Ignition. Put a limiter plate while working on the curve but that was before going to manifold vacuum.
 
Why do you think mine runs so much better on the ported side of the carb while yours got better on manifold side? Different distributors? I just hear so many different things from people on this. I’m just glad mine is finally running better but I do want to learn the science of it all!
Because each was tuned for it.
 
Makes sense, but I could not get rid of my stumble without doing manifold vac. I'm just a hack though. I wish I knew someone near me that would take a look at it. I could be missing or screwing up something. lol
 
If I brake or turn pretty hard mine will stumble. Fuel slosh.
 
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