A real testament to stock bottom end capabilities

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Mean416

Mean416

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I watch this guy's videos occasionally. I think he's actually a member here BTW.

Anyhow he's got this big heavy truck he uses for burnout contests and the like. He gets a stock bottom end magnum 5.9, runs the absolute snot out of it under massive boost, essentially running it to total failure. Dude is running 20 psi on a mostly SBE 5.9.

He details what he does to make them live. Nothing magic, and in fact it's down and dirty to be honest. He changes out the main and rod bolts for arp hardware (no main studs just bolts). He then runs head studs and MLS gaskets.

Line boring the mains? Nope. Honed with torque plates for those studs? Nadda. Dude cleaned up the deck surface with a freaking orbital sander.

Crazy thing is, he's been at it for awhile and has been through several engines, progressively figuring out what's going to fail.

In the video below, the failure point was apparently the stock rod and main bearings. It got me wondering, according to the experts here, what should he have done to prevent this particular failure? Is this an inadequate oil clearance issue? Maybe oil over temperature or wrong viscosity?

This guy is absolutely punishing these motors. Sitting pegged at 20 psi WOT for minutes at a time. 20 psi, on a suitably cammed 5.9 making say 325 hp NA... that's an 800hp motor boys. WOT for minutes at a time!

No race block. No forged fancy stuff. Stock stuff with a sorted out tune on e85.

How can the bearing failures he had be prevented?

 
I'm genuinely interested from guys here what mods they would suggest to help with the bearings. The guy also runs this thing around a dirt track so it makes me wonder if some of this might just be plain old oil starvation.
 
I remember a post from a while back a member stated that he work at a car dealership during the Cash for Clunkers and that the government supplied a mixture to pour into the engines to destroy the engines of traded in car.
He said that the magnum engines ran the longest of any
If it's true,
That's good enough for me.
 
Mean416 said:
I'm genuinely interested from guys here what mods they would suggest to help with the bearings. The guy also runs this thing around a dirt track so it makes me wonder if some of this might just be plain old oil starvation.
Click to expand...
Imagine the turbo cranked up the engine oil temps, not sure if that's the whole problem but sure it was part of it.
 
I'm not sure I'd expect a anything less from a stock, not purpose built engines.
I'd be curious what coolant and oil temps were when all was over.
The engines I race now were designed for reg and turbo.
The rods are certainly bigger/wider than I woulda expected for a 4 cyl.
After a hard season of hundreds of laps bouncing off a 7500 chip, it just pounds the snot outta the rod shells.
The shells had "crush" everytime I put them in, they literally fall out after.
I always say "if you try to blow'em up, - you will" .
Heat is the big enemy here, and hi expectations, lol.
Wonder if alum/silicon shells would take heat better ?
 
Last edited:
Search oiling mods by Guitar Jones. That will pretty much cover what you need to do.
 
i'd bet with oiling mods-- nothing crazy, just the by the book old fashioned stuff, along with some oil control-- windage tray, scraper, pan/pick up, and some additional capacity along with cooling could probably make one last a fair bit longer.

and maybe a little restraint, too...
 
It's absolutely amazing how many times we could run a vehicle in Demo's, you'd assume once the engine blew the coolant out and quit after 20 minutes of total destruction, they were done, - but nope.
We ran Kingswood wagons, Can vs US at our PNExhibitions and other.
We could melt those things down several events in a row.
12 volts to run,
24 volts to start.
No oiling mods done, lol ,
 
Mean416 said:
I watch this guy's videos occasionally. I think he's actually a member here BTW.

Anyhow he's got this big heavy truck he uses for burnout contests and the like. He gets a stock bottom end magnum 5.9, runs the absolute snot out of it under massive boost, essentially running it to total failure. Dude is running 20 psi on a mostly SBE 5.9.

He details what he does to make them live. Nothing magic, and in fact it's down and dirty to be honest. He changes out the main and rod bolts for arp hardware (no main studs just bolts). He then runs head studs and MLS gaskets.

Line boring the mains? Nope. Honed with torque plates for those studs? Nadda. Dude cleaned up the deck surface with a freaking orbital sander.

Crazy thing is, he's been at it for awhile and has been through several engines, progressively figuring out what's going to fail.

In the video below, the failure point was apparently the stock rod and main bearings. It got me wondering, according to the experts here, what should he have done to prevent this particular failure? Is this an inadequate oil clearance issue? Maybe oil over temperature or wrong viscosity?

This guy is absolutely punishing these motors. Sitting pegged at 20 psi WOT for minutes at a time. 20 psi, on a suitably cammed 5.9 making say 325 hp NA... that's an 800hp motor boys. WOT for minutes at a time!

No race block. No forged fancy stuff. Stock stuff with a sorted out tune on e85.

How can the bearing failures he had be prevented?

Click to expand...



What you are seeing is the block flexing. There are only two fixes, and one is a bandaid.

One is open the clearances up a bunch so the block can move and not grab the bearing.

The other is buy an aftermarket block. There is no modifications I know of to the oiling system that can fix a flexing block.
 
inertia said:
I'm not sure I'd expect a anything less from a stock, not purpose built engines.
I'd be curious what coolant and oil temps were when all was over.
The engines I race now were designed for reg and turbo.
The rods are certainly bigger/wider than I woulda expected for a 4 cyl.
After a hard season of hundreds of laps bouncing off a 7500 chip, it just pounds the snot outta the rod shells.
The shells had "crush" everytime I put them in, they literally fall out after.
I always say "if you try to blow'em up, - you will" .
Heat is the big enemy here, and hi expectations, lol.
Wonder if alum/silicon shells would take heat better ?
King bearings says closed permanently.
Click to expand...
Where did you see that King Bearings was closed, been waiting on a set for a while?
 
tjpatte said:
Where did you see that King Bearings was closed, been waiting on a set for a while?
Click to expand...

I went looking for a reference a few days ago, found a site saying "permanently closed".
I just rechecked, site seems okay.
Not sure what happened, - glad to be wrong
Sorry for any inconveniences.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
What you are seeing is the block flexing. There are only two fixes, and one is a bandaid.

One is open the clearances up a bunch so the block can move and not grab the bearing.

The other is buy an aftermarket block. There is no modifications I know of to the oiling system that can fix a flexing block.
Click to expand...
How about doing a low fill on the Block to help with the flexing problem?
 
Jadaharabi said:
How about doing a low fill on the Block to help with the flexing problem?
Click to expand...


It can help stabilize the bores, but it doesn’t really do much to keep the mains from moving around.

The Engine Performance Expo was about 2-3 weeks ago. They had a sort of round table with Kieth Dorton. He was working with Chrysler TA blocks, so you know that was a long time ago. Anyway, they were having some main issues so they changed the way they did the main line, and then they had a mandrel made up that was .001 under main bore minimum. Once they finished the main line, they’d slide that mandrel through the mains. If it slid in nicely, they new that had the main bores in line.

He was doing these blocks for himself and at least one other customer. So that customer had a mandrel made up so he could double check the main line before they started assembly.

Dorton gets a call from this customer and he says his mandrel wouldn’t go in the main line. And it wasn’t even close. Dorton knew they checked it before it left so he grabbed his mandrel and ran over to the other shop, and sure enough, neither mandrel would go. Not even close.

They thought about it for a bit and then he said let’s take it off the engine stand and set the block on the bench with the China rails down. And sure enough, both mandrels slipped right through.

So the TA block, for as good as it was at the time will bend enough hanging from an engine stand to not let the mandrel get through the main line. That’s how much these blocks flex. And that was just hanging from an engine stand.

So think about the loads the block sees when it’s running. That block is moving all over the place. The X blocks were a bunch better than the TA stuff and the R blocks are better than the X blocks.

I took a bellhousing I had laying around and put it in the mill. I took a slitting saw and cut the mounting flange off the rest of the bellhousing. I’d torque that up before I put the block in the hone just to try and duplicate the stresses that he open when you bolt the bellhousing on.

I’ve also seen blocks (not just Chrysler stuff) that have been chained down or had a turnbuckle affair to keep the engine from moving around and you can see where that load pulls the bore out of round. That’s one reason why motor plates are used. You aren’t loading the lugs on the side of the block.

It’s crazy how much these things move around. And the thinner the block the worse it is.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
What you are seeing is the block flexing. There are only two fixes, and one is a bandaid.

One is open the clearances up a bunch so the block can move and not grab the bearing.

The other is buy an aftermarket block. There is no modifications I know of to the oiling system that can fix a flexing block.
Click to expand...
You can fix anything with enough duct tape.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
It can help stabilize the bores, but it doesn’t really do much to keep the mains from moving around.

The Engine Performance Expo was about 2-3 weeks ago. They had a sort of round table with Kieth Dorton. He was working with Chrysler TA blocks, so you know that was a long time ago. Anyway, they were having some main issues so they changed the way they did the main line, and then they had a mandrel made up that was .001 under main bore minimum. Once they finished the main line, they’d slide that mandrel through the mains. If it slid in nicely, they new that had the main bores in line.

He was doing these blocks for himself and at least one other customer. So that customer had a mandrel made up so he could double check the main line before they started assembly.

Dorton gets a call from this customer and he says his mandrel wouldn’t go in the main line. And it wasn’t even close. Dorton knew they checked it before it left so he grabbed his mandrel and ran over to the other shop, and sure enough, neither mandrel would go. Not even close.

They thought about it for a bit and then he said let’s take it off the engine stand and set the block on the bench with the China rails down. And sure enough, both mandrels slipped right through.

So the TA block, for as good as it was at the time will bend enough hanging from an engine stand to not let the mandrel get through the main line. That’s how much these blocks flex. And that was just hanging from an engine stand.

So think about the loads the block sees when it’s running. That block is moving all over the place. The X blocks were a bunch better than the TA stuff and the R blocks are better than the X blocks.

I took a bellhousing I had laying around and put it in the mill. I took a slitting saw and cut the mounting flange off the rest of the bellhousing. I’d torque that up before I put the block in the hone just to try and duplicate the stresses that he open when you bolt the bellhousing on.

I’ve also seen blocks (not just Chrysler stuff) that have been chained down or had a turnbuckle affair to keep the engine from moving around and you can see where that load pulls the bore out of round. That’s one reason why motor plates are used. You aren’t loading the lugs on the side of the block.

It’s crazy how much these things move around. And the thinner the block the worse it is.
Click to expand...
Does a main girdle help any?
 
OIL COOLER!!!! along with oiling mods and loser bearing clearances would add life but a stock bottom end and boost is still gonna be a time bomb....dwb
 
dirty white boy said:
OIL COOLER!!!! along with oiling mods and loser bearing clearances would add life but a stock bottom end and boost is still gonna be a time bomb....dwb
Click to expand...
I agree with the oil cooler but.

But full send, wide open throttle, for minutes at a time under 20 psi is hardly a time bomb.
 
More bearing clearance, an oil cooler, and a couple of horseshoes under the gas pedal.

Not sure a fill would help since even though it would add some rigidity, it would also increase oil heat quicker. Regardless, any engine under those conditions would have it somewhat hard, so the junkyard approach is actually genius in my opinion.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
It can help stabilize the bores, but it doesn’t really do much to keep the mains from moving around.

The Engine Performance Expo was about 2-3 weeks ago. They had a sort of round table with Kieth Dorton. He was working with Chrysler TA blocks, so you know that was a long time ago. Anyway, they were having some main issues so they changed the way they did the main line, and then they had a mandrel made up that was .001 under main bore minimum. Once they finished the main line, they’d slide that mandrel through the mains. If it slid in nicely, they new that had the main bores in line.

He was doing these blocks for himself and at least one other customer. So that customer had a mandrel made up so he could double check the main line before they started assembly.

Dorton gets a call from this customer and he says his mandrel wouldn’t go in the main line. And it wasn’t even close. Dorton knew they checked it before it left so he grabbed his mandrel and ran over to the other shop, and sure enough, neither mandrel would go. Not even close.

They thought about it for a bit and then he said let’s take it off the engine stand and set the block on the bench with the China rails down. And sure enough, both mandrels slipped right through.

So the TA block, for as good as it was at the time will bend enough hanging from an engine stand to not let the mandrel get through the main line. That’s how much these blocks flex. And that was just hanging from an engine stand.

So think about the loads the block sees when it’s running. That block is moving all over the place. The X blocks were a bunch better than the TA stuff and the R blocks are better than the X blocks.

I took a bellhousing I had laying around and put it in the mill. I took a slitting saw and cut the mounting flange off the rest of the bellhousing. I’d torque that up before I put the block in the hone just to try and duplicate the stresses that he open when you bolt the bellhousing on.

I’ve also seen blocks (not just Chrysler stuff) that have been chained down or had a turnbuckle affair to keep the engine from moving around and you can see where that load pulls the bore out of round. That’s one reason why motor plates are used. You aren’t loading the lugs on the side of the block.

It’s crazy how much these things move around. And the thinner the block the worse it is.
Click to expand...
I read a long time ago that Bob Glidden never used an engine stand for just this reason.
He would assemble engines on the bench and do his measurements on the bench, without the stresses and flex to an engine that the engine stand would incur.
He was a world champion for several years with Ford and Mopar engines, so he must have known something...
 
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