A500/A518 Aftermarket Overdrive Ratios

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72DMag

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Hi, working on installing an A500 behind a 318 with 4.56 gears. From what researched I gathered the standard ratio for the 4th gear overdrive is .69. Did mopar offer vehicles with a better ratio lower than .69? I saw the gear vendors unit is .72 which is higher.

Are there any aftermarket gear sets available for these transmissions to change the ratio?

Thanks!!
 
.69 is it, no aftermarket gear sets....

The A500 has a lower 1st & second gear than the A518....

A500 1st 2.67 2nd 1.54 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

A518 1st 2.45 2nd 1.45 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

Most guys try to avoid the lock up convertor models, I see that as a mistake... L/U convertor reduces Engine RPM at cruise & has no effect on low speed driving... Actually it frees you up to use a looser convertor without the penalty of slippage/heat at highway speeds...

Honestly the deeper first gear of a A500 means you could drop 3.91's in the axle & lose nothing but gain on a cruising speed end of the equation
 
3.91 X .69 = 2.6979 (2.70 rounded up.)
4.56 X .69 = 3.1464 (3.15 rounded up.)

1st get up and go numbers are;

3.91 X 2.67 = 10.4397 - 10.44 = very good
4.56 X 2.67 = 12.1752 - 12.17 = a bit much.

What size rear tire diameter? This can have a positive effect if it’s large.
Also, is this a hot street or 1/4 mile build? The 4.56’s point that way. If so….. Then the OD would just be gravy after the first 3 gears. A 3.15 final drive ratio and a tall tire would be really good.
 
IMO, the jump from 1:1 to an OD with much lower than around .69 is going to be HUGE. Have you thought of some of the double OD six speeds?
 
The car is actually a 76 volare (I know not an a body). Building it with a 318 and would like to do the midwest drags with it next year where you drive to 4 different tracks and race on 4 different days. The car came with 4.56 gears built on a 742 case but even with the .69 4th gear online calculator has me at 2300 rpms at 60mph with my 28" mickey thompson radials.

Since there is not aftermarket ratios sounds like I would be better to swap rear end gears. Thanks everyone!!
 
Good thing about an Aspen if doing a 500-518 swap, no torsion bar crossmember to worry about...
 
Add a gear vendors for 8 speed with 3 different OD's.
 
2300 rpms at 60mph with my 28" mickey thompson radials.
From a fuel economy standpoint, 2300 is actually about ideal. ...... because with the factory type distributor, you can just barely modify it to get close to the ideal cruise timing. Your combo might want 56* cruise timing to get optimum gas-mileage.
You can modify your Vcan for 22* maybe as much as 24*.
Your normal rate of advance will get you about 14* from 1000rpm to 2400.
You can set your basic Idle-timing to in the range of 10* for the stock cam to 16/18 degrees with a typical street cam. Thus the total cruise-timing becomes say
16initial +14 mechanical +22V-can =52* close enough.
Under 2000 it becomes almost impossible.
A typical rate of advance might be .78* per 100rpm beginning at ~1000rpm. Thus at 2000, you might be looking at 8 degrees mechanical. To get a cruise-timing of 56* would take ;
56 -( 8+22)=26* initial. That could work. The question is; will the engine detonate at WOT at 2000rpm with 26+8=34* of power-timing? I suspect it would. To get around that might take a 2600stall or more. Of course now you would be cruising a 2600 plus TC slip; which could total 2700, unless you have a lock-up convertor .......
In terms of getting enough ignition advance;
in all my testing, a cruise rpm of 2250 is about ideal (230*cam).
And I have tried just about every final-drive you can imagine, down to 65mph =1450 rpm . And no I didn't cruise that one at 65, lol; we cruised at from 1700 to 2250.
2250 is the lowest rpm I would cruise at, but it is impossible for my engine to get enough cruise timing at that, so I installed a dash-mounted, stand-alone, spark-delay box with a usable range of 15*. With that unit I can experiment while driving..... and can run almost any ignition curve/any rear gear/any trans.
65=2250 is very comfortable to cruise at.

You may wish to trailer your car, lol.
 
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My GVod is a .78 ratio.
For splitting; on paper; it does not play all that well with the automatics.
For the A500;
I have in file, the ratios at 2.74-1.54-1.00-.69. Splitting them it becomes
2.74-2.14-1.54-1.20-1.00-.78-.69-.54
the splits are .78-.72-.78-.83-.78-.88-.78
As you can see the splits are somewhat staggered, and I doubt you would ever shift from 1.20 ratio to 1.00 ratio. and, I doubt you would have much opportunity to use the .88 split. So even tho on paper it maths to 8 ratios, in reality it think it would become a 5 or possibly a 6 speed; depending on your installed rear gear, and intended cruising speed.
Furthermore, the instructions I got from GV said that the GV unit must NOT be back-shifted under power. So you will have to figure out a way to kill the power during the outshift and before engaging the next actual transmission gear. I have a clutch so that was no big deal for me.
In reality, I fear it will soon become;
2.74-1.54-1.00or1.20-.78or.69- and again maybe the .54. thus a 5 speed with options.
and and mostly, it will be a 4 speed; 2.74-1.54-1.00 and one of the three overdrives available, namely; .78, .69 or .54

For the A518
this comes with ratios of 2.45-1.91-1.45-1.13-1.00-.78-.69-.54 with splits of
.78-.76-.78-.88-.78-.88-.78
Here the first 4 ratios are better until you get to shifting from Second-over to direct. So it comes to the same 5spd with options. and you lose the 12% deeper starter gear.
 
From a fuel economy standpoint, 2300 is actually about ideal. ...... because with the factory type distributor, you can just barely modify it to get close to the ideal cruise timing. Your combo might want 56* cruise timing to get optimum gas-mileage.
You can modify your Vcan for 22* maybe as much as 24*.
Your normal rate of advance will get you about 14* from 1000rpm to 2400.
You can set your basic Idle-timing to in the range of 10* for the stock cam to 16/18 degrees with a typical street cam. Thus the total cruise-timing becomes say
16initial +14 mechanical +22V-can =52* close enough.
Under 2000 it becomes almost impossible.
A typical rate of advance might be .78* per 100rpm beginning at ~1000rpm. Thus at 2000, you might be looking at 8 degrees mechanical. To get a cruise-timing of 56* would take ;
56 -( 8+22)=26* initial. That could work. The question is; will the engine detonate at WOT at 2000rpm with 26+8=34* of power-timing? I suspect it would. To get around that might take a 2600stall or more. Of course now you would be cruising a 2600 plus TC slip; which could total 2700, unless you have a lock-up convertor .......
In terms of getting enough ignition advance;
in all my testing, a cruise rpm of 2250 is about ideal (230*cam).
And I have tried just about every final-drive you can imagine, down to 65mph =1450 rpm . And no I didn't cruise that one at 65, lol; we cruised at from 1700 to 2250.
2250 is the lowest rpm I would cruise at, but it is impossible for my engine to get enough cruise timing at that, so I installed a dash-mounted, stand-alone, spark-delay box with a usable range of 15*. With that unit I can experiment while driving..... and can run almost any ignition curve/any rear gear/any trans.
65=2250 is very comfortable to cruise at.

You may wish to trailer your car, lol.
@AJ/FormS what stand alone spark delay box are you using sir?
 
.69 is it, no aftermarket gear sets....

The A500 has a lower 1st & second gear than the A518....

A500 1st 2.67 2nd 1.54 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

A518 1st 2.45 2nd 1.45 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

Most guys try to avoid the lock up convertor models, I see that as a mistake... L/U convertor reduces Engine RPM at cruise & has no effect on low speed driving... Actually it frees you up to use a looser convertor without the penalty of slippage/heat at highway speeds...

Honestly the deeper first gear of a A500 means you could drop 3.91's in the axle & lose nothing but gain on a cruising speed end of the equation
No kiddin. Lockup converters generally give about 200-300 RPM drop. That' pretty substantial to just leave on the table.
 
.69 is it, no aftermarket gear sets....

The A500 has a lower 1st & second gear than the A518....

A500 1st 2.67 2nd 1.54 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

A518 1st 2.45 2nd 1.45 Drive 1.00 O/D .69

Most guys try to avoid the lock up convertor models, I see that as a mistake... L/U convertor reduces Engine RPM at cruise & has no effect on low speed driving... Actually it frees you up to use a looser convertor without the penalty of slippage/heat at highway speeds...

Honestly the deeper first gear of a A500 means you could drop 3.91's in the axle & lose nothing but gain on a cruising speed end of the equation
It ain't gonna free You up for much stall, highest they'll build a lock-up is about 2,900rpm rated, last time I inquired.
 
sounds like you are asking a question that is far more expensive than a rear end ratio change. With the low, low 1st gear, what are you buying with 4.56 gears???
 
@AJ/FormS what stand alone spark delay box are you using sir?
Mine is an old Jacob's Electronics unit, some 20 years old. It can easily be spliced into any NON-CDI system. IDK maybe it could even be wired into nearly any system with a distributor.
But hey, it's just a tool to make getting your tune set up quickly and accurately. You can do it without the tool, it will just take a lot longer.
And don't call me sir, lol. AJ is my name.
 
I should probably mention something else;
For a streeter; the stall is chosen to get the rpm up to where the power is, as quickly as possible, so you can spinthechit outta the tires.
However, the gear ratios will, for a streeter, do much the same, easing the stall requirement.
Lets see how this works;
Lets say you had a 3.73 rear gear and a 2.45 low for a total First gear Multiplication of 9.14/ and say you had a 3000stall TC/ and say your engine makes 300 ftlbs at 3000, which by the math is 171 horsepower. This is a typical set-up. So also by the math , this equates to 171 x 9.14=1563 horsepower into the rear axles, before correction for the hydraulic ratio inside the TC itself. Lets ignore that stuff, assuming it to be the same for all these applications.

Ok now lets install the A500/2.74 First gear, and a 3.91 rear gear, for a multiplier of 10.71. But lets back the stall up to 2600. And assuming that the torque at 2600 is still 300 which translates to 149hp. The math is thus 1596 hp into the tires. Yeah I manipulated the numbers just a lil, for effect.

In the first case with an A904 your cruise rpm maths to 65= 3019 at zero-slip; could be say 3%slippage, so say 3100rpm.
In the second case 65=2180 in loc-up.
Now, what is not evident is how the 10.71 ratio will spool up a lil quicker than the 9.14 ratio. But hang on a sec, what are the Second-Gear roadgears? Well; with the A904; 3.73 x 1.45=5.40; and with the A500; 3.91 x 1.54=6.02 which is 11.5% higher and thus spools up like it had 11.5% more rear gear. This is where the realchit is; 11.5% is a lot

Cruising at less than 2180rpm with an engine with a "bit of a cam" will NOT bring fuel economy to the table in the amount that you might expect, on account of the shortage if ignition timing problems already discussed. You gotta get the cruise-vacuum up.
To do that you have three options; 1) Slam the intake valve closed sooner, or 2) start with a higher Cylinder Pressure in the first place, or 3) give the engine the ignition timing that it craves. After that you just lean it out until it melts down..... lol.
My unit cruises at 65=2240 rpm/the cranking cylinder pressure is over 180psi/and the cruise timing is up to 52 degrees. With one size smaller cam, she pulled in fuel-economy akin to a small EFI 4-cylinder.
Now, knowing all this, a case can be made for installing a smaller or less-powerful engine and gearing it accordingly, on account of, on the street, Second gear usually gets you into speeding territory anyway.

Lets take out 10% and see what happens. So now, the engine is at 270 ftlbs. and lets make it a 2800 stall, still with the 2.74 first gear, but lets give it 4.10s. The power is thus 144hp and the gearage is 11.23 for 1618 hp into the rear axles. And 65=2290rpm. and second road gear is now 6.31, up 17% from the baseline 5.40.
Lessee, 10% from a 360 engine is a 323.. or, this is about one cam size ........ I like the 360 because the longer stroke lets you get away with more stuff at lower rpms. So yeah, I took out some cam. And I might do it again.
I rest my case.

Ok not to be blindly ignorant; as the speed goes up, so does the wind resistance. Therefore all this math rapidly falls to meaningless after say 70/80 mph, and if you want to continue accelerating at the same rate, yur gonna need; more engine, more gear, or less mass. The wind is a bugger.
 
I should probably mention something else;
For a streeter; the stall is chosen to get the rpm up to where the power is, as quickly as possible, so you can spinthechit outta the tires.
However, the gear ratios will, for a streeter, do much the same, easing the stall requirement.
Lets see how this works;
Lets say you had a 3.73 rear gear and a 2.45 low for a total First gear Multiplication of 9.14/ and say you had a 3000stall TC/ and say your engine makes 300 ftlbs at 3000, which by the math is 171 horsepower. This is a typical set-up. So also by the math , this equates to 171 x 9.14=1563 horsepower into the rear axles, before correction for the hydraulic ratio inside the TC itself. Lets ignore that stuff, assuming it to be the same for all these applications.

Ok now lets install the A500/2.74 First gear, and a 3.91 rear gear, for a multiplier of 10.71. But lets back the stall up to 2600. And assuming that the torque at 2600 is still 300 which translates to 149hp. The math is thus 1596 hp into the tires. Yeah I manipulated the numbers just a lil, for effect.

In the first case with an A904 your cruise rpm maths to 65= 3019 at zero-slip; could be say 3%slippage, so say 3100rpm.
In the second case 65=2180 in loc-up.
Now, what is not evident is how the 10.71 ratio will spool up a lil quicker than the 9.14 ratio. But hang on a sec, what are the Second-Gear roadgears? Well; with the A904; 3.73 x 1.45=5.40; and with the A500; 3.91 x 1.54=6.02 which is 11.5% higher and thus spools up like it had 11.5% more rear gear. This is where the realchit is; 11.5% is a lot

Cruising at less than 2180rpm with an engine with a "bit of a cam" will NOT bring fuel economy to the table in the amount that you might expect, on account of the shortage if ignition timing problems already discussed. You gotta get the cruise-vacuum up.
To do that you have three options; 1) Slam the intake valve closed sooner, or 2) start with a higher Cylinder Pressure in the first place, or 3) give the engine the ignition timing that it craves. After that you just lean it out until it melts down..... lol.
My unit cruises at 65=2240 rpm/the cranking cylinder pressure is over 180psi/and the cruise timing is up to 52 degrees. With one size smaller cam, she pulled in fuel-economy akin to a small EFI 4-cylinder.
Now, knowing all this, a case can be made for installing a smaller or less-powerful engine and gearing it accordingly, on account of, on the street, Second gear usually gets you into speeding territory anyway.

Lets take out 10% and see what happens. So now, the engine is at 270 ftlbs. and lets make it a 2800 stall, still with the 2.74 first gear, but lets give it 4.10s. The power is thus 144hp and the gearage is 11.23 for 1618 hp into the rear axles. And 65=2290rpm. and second road gear is now 6.31, up 17% from the baseline 5.40.
Lessee, 10% from a 360 engine is a 323.. or, this is about one cam size ........ I like the 360 because the longer stroke lets you get away with more stuff at lower rpms. So yeah, I took out some cam. And I might do it again.
I rest my case.

Ok not to be blindly ignorant; as the speed goes up, so does the wind resistance. Therefore all this math rapidly falls to meaningless after say 70/80 mph, and if you want to continue accelerating at the same rate, yur gonna need; more engine, more gear, or less mass. The wind is a bugger.
You can't multiply an engines hp, torque yes, hp no.
 
Gears trade rpm for torque or torque for rpm, hp stays the same, torque converter would have to work the sameway. The stall speed "engine speed" is gonna be a lot higher than transmission side, so you'd be trading rpm for torque at take off.
 
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Some of you may have misunderstood my intent.
I calculated the hp per the usual rules, and inserted the numbers to be meaningful, in terms of understanding acceleration, an understanding of which is harder from the torque numbers.
As soon as the car is moving, torque turns to horsepower.
The result are the same either way you send it.
For example;
171 hp at 3000rpm is 300ftlbs. and 300 x 9.14 = 2742 ftlbs, into the axles, and
149hp at 2600 is still 300ftlbs; and 300 x 10.71= 3213 ftlbs into the axles, an increase of 17.2% with a stall reduction of 400; and
144hp at 2800 is 270 ftlbs...... and 270 x 11.23= 3032 ftlbs into the axles, an increase of 10.6% over base 2742, with a stall reduction of 200 from base .
Looking at the Torque numbers belies the horsepower delivered, which is all over thev place from 144 to 171, yet about the same into the axles, namely 1592+/- about 1.6% which is the point I was striving to deliver. Thus you can see that, for a streeter, that rarely exceeds say 65mph, it does not need a lot of power to get going if it has the range of gearage dialed in. And the A500 has a lotta of range; going from
2.74 to 1.00 to .69od, is a gross range of .69/2.74= 3.97 (Compared to 1.0/2.45=2.45 for the A904) which is a lot of range, almost more than you need. and LU being worth another 3% or so;
so because of all that, the engine does not need a lot of stall. Proving that, with numbers, is the point I was trying to make.
My hope is that this makes things easier to understand.

There is no trick math here;
(Torque x RPM)/5250 = horsepower
(HP x 5250)/ rpm = torque
It's just math.
 
Some of you may have misunderstood my intent.
I calculated the hp per the usual rules, and inserted the numbers to be meaningful, in terms of understanding acceleration, an understanding of which is harder from the torque numbers.
As soon as the car is moving, torque turns to horsepower.
The result are the same either way you send it.
For example;
171 hp at 3000rpm is 300ftlbs. and 300 x 9.14 = 2742 ftlbs, into the axles, and
149hp at 2600 is still 300ftlbs; and 300 x 10.71= 3213 ftlbs into the axles, an increase of 17.2% with a stall reduction of 400; and
144hp at 2800 is 270 ftlbs...... and 270 x 11.23= 3032 ftlbs into the axles, an increase of 10.6% over base 2742, with a stall reduction of 200 from base .
Looking at the Torque numbers belies the horsepower delivered, which is all over thev place from 144 to 171, yet about the same into the axles, namely 1592+/- about 1.6% which is the point I was striving to deliver. Thus you can see that, for a streeter, that rarely exceeds say 65mph, it does not need a lot of power to get going if it has the range of gearage dialed in. And the A500 has a lotta of range; going from
2.74 to 1.00 to .69od, is a gross range of .69/2.74= 3.97 (Compared to 1.0/2.45=2.45 for the A904) which is a lot of range, almost more than you need. and LU being worth another 3% or so;
so because of all that, the engine does not need a lot of stall. Proving that, with numbers, is the point I was trying to make.
My hope is that this makes things easier to understand.

There is no trick math here;
(Torque x RPM)/5250 = horsepower
(HP x 5250)/ rpm = torque
It's just math.
Ya this looks right, you just can't multiply hp with gears and or converter like you can with torque, if we overlook drivetrain hp loss and imagine none for a second the hp would be the same at the crank and tires no matter the gearing/converter.
 
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