A903 No Neutral

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Taebombo

Taebombo

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First things first, I'll just come out and say that I am not a SUPER mechanical person. I know basic car mechanics, and these old cars confuse me to no end. So I will probably be asking stupid questions, or things that most people should know. Be patient with me please, I'm learning. :p

Alright, so I've got a strange occurrence with my '65 Barracuda that I cannot seem to figure out. I've picked brains of a few people, and still no one that I've spoken to knows anything about my issue. I'm too impatient to wait until my handy dandy transmission shop opens on Monday, so here I am.
I finally got her running, the entire brake system is torn apart due to me preparing to change everything from the master cylinder back, all fluids changed except diff. I figured now is an okay time to check the gears all work, being the car is off the ground on stands.
So here is the problem, I cannot get the car into Neutral.
She goes through all gears fine, clutch is working as it should to my knowledge. Yes, there is wobble in the shifter, but it didn't seem like too much being as old as she is. I had my father telling me when the axles were spinning, however the brake cable runs across the driveline with the rear axle dropped so I could hear it when it moved (is that a normal place on these cars?).
I cannot start the car and get out, due to me not being able to find Neutral. When I have the clutch in, no movement at all. I let the clutch out in what SHOULD be Neutral, and it spins the axles. I changed the oil in the transmission, thinking it was maybe just low or old oil, and it did nothing to help the situation. I tried shaking the linkage to see if there was a ton of play, it moves a little, but I've had worse play on my Toyota. I still cannot seem to find the issue.
Please, someone give me ideas where to start on what the issue might be. Thanks in advance!
 
Did you try the brakes while it was idling in neutral?
If its on stands, engine off. In neutral crawl under and and see if you can rotate driveshaft by hand. Linkage may need some work.
 
^ What Trailbeast said. It might be fine, not really putting power out the output, just fluid flowing.
 
Taebombo said:
So then is this normal?? I find it odd that even in Neutral I'm getting the same power to the axels as I am in gear.
Click to expand...
If the brakes stall the engine in neutral, or the brakes cannot stop the wheels from turning, then you have a problem.
If the trans goes thru all the shift positions, and letting out the clutch in EACH GEAR, does NOT stall the engine, then at least the forks ain't broken. But my guess is that you will find a stick position that stalls the engine, due to it's being in two gears at once, due to a broken shift fork.
If you cannot get the car to back up; badaboom.
903s are top-loaders so the trans would have to come down.

In neutral, with foot off the pedal, and engine idling; the crank is spinning EVERYTHING in the trans except those parts which are splined to the output shaft, which is held stationary by the tires being on the ground. As soon as the rear wheels come off the ground, gear oil will, (as mentioned) tend to act like a fluid coupling and the tires will start to spin, or if an open diff, at least one will spin, but at double-speed, due to the 2:1 differential ratio. But if the brakes will not stop this action, then, more is driving the wheels than just the fluid; and so it's time for a visual inspection. It may be that one of the gears is, or is nearly, seized to the mainshaft; or a fork is broken, leaving it full-time in that gear, or a synchronizer is stuck or dragging. The shifter will still work perfectly. But letting the clutch out,with the engine running, in any other gear than the affected one will result in a stall.
That 903 has funky 50s technology inverted synchronizers with floating parts, and a non-synchronized first/reverse gear. The parts were just barely adequate for the job in their original application. Back in the late 70s, I rebuilt hundreds of those, sometimes 8 or more a day. Farmers used them for all kinds of applications other than their intended applications. Interesting anecdote,lol.
 
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Tooljunkie said:
Did you try the brakes while it was idling in neutral?
If its on stands, engine off. In neutral crawl under and and see if you can rotate driveshaft by hand. Linkage may need some work.
Click to expand...

AJ/FormS said:
If the brakes stall the engine in neutral, or the brakes cannot stop the wheels from turning, then you have a problem.
If the trans goes thru all the shift positions, and letting out the clutch in EACH GEAR, does NOT stall the engine, then at least the forks ain't broken. But my guess is that you will find a stick position that stalls the engine, due to it's being in two gears at once, due to a broken shift fork.
If you cannot get the car to back up; badaboom.
903s are top-loaders so the trans would have to come down.

In neutral, with foot off the pedal, and engine idling; the crank is spinning EVERYTHING in the trans except those parts which are splined to the output shaft, which is held stationary by the tires being on the ground. As soon as the rear wheels come off the ground, gear oil will, (as mentioned) tend to act like a fluid coupling and the tires will start to spin, or if an open diff, at least one will spin, but at double-speed, due to the 2:1 differential ratio. But if the brakes will not stop this action, then, more is driving the wheels than just the fluid; and so it's time for a visual inspection. It may be that one of the gears is, or is nearly, seized to the mainshaft; or a fork is broken, leaving it full-time in that gear, or a synchronizer is stuck or dragging. The shifter will still work perfectly. But letting the clutch out,with the engine running, in any other gear than the affected one will result in a stall.
That 903 has funky 50s technology inverted synchronizers with floating parts, and a non-synchronized first/reverse gear. The parts were just barely adequate for the job in their original application. Back in the late 70s, I rebuilt hundreds of those, sometimes 8 or more a day. Farmers used them for all kinds of applications other than their intended applications. Interesting anecdote,lol.
Click to expand...

I guess this got missed, as he said "the entire brake system is torn apart due to me preparing to change everything from the master cylinder back, all fluids changed except diff."

Which means to me he is seeing bare axles turning, and no brakes to stop them.
Automatics and manuals both can do this in neutral.
In park an automatic doesn't do this because the output shaft of the trans is physically locked.
 
TrailBeast said:
I guess this got missed, as he said "the entire brake system is torn apart due to me preparing to change everything from the master cylinder back, all fluids changed except diff."

Which means to me he is seeing bare axles turning, and no brakes to stop them.
Automatics and manuals both can do this in neutral.
In park an automatic doesn't do this because the output shaft of the trans is physically locked.
Click to expand...
Yup i missed it.
 
Trailbeast is correct, there would be no drag at all, with cold oil it would drag the freewheeling parts along with ease.

pto on my tractor does the same thing. and if i switch from 4 hi to 4 lo in my 4x4 i cant pause in neutral or it will start spinning even with trans in neutral.
 
Tooljunkie said:
Did you try the brakes while it was idling in neutral?
If its on stands, engine off. In neutral crawl under and and see if you can rotate driveshaft by hand. Linkage may need some work.
Click to expand...
Demonic said:
^ What Trailbeast said. It might be fine, not really putting power out the output, just fluid flowing.
Click to expand...
AJ/FormS said:
If the brakes stall the engine in neutral, or the brakes cannot stop the wheels from turning, then you have a problem.
If the trans goes thru all the shift positions, and letting out the clutch in EACH GEAR, does NOT stall the engine, then at least the forks ain't broken. But my guess is that you will find a stick position that stalls the engine, due to it's being in two gears at once, due to a broken shift fork.
If you cannot get the car to back up; badaboom.
903s are top-loaders so the trans would have to come down.

In neutral, with foot off the pedal, and engine idling; the crank is spinning EVERYTHING in the trans except those parts which are splined to the output shaft, which is held stationary by the tires being on the ground. As soon as the rear wheels come off the ground, gear oil will, (as mentioned) tend to act like a fluid coupling and the tires will start to spin, or if an open diff, at least one will spin, but at double-speed, due to the 2:1 differential ratio. But if the brakes will not stop this action, then, more is driving the wheels than just the fluid; and so it's time for a visual inspection. It may be that one of the gears is, or is nearly, seized to the mainshaft; or a fork is broken, leaving it full-time in that gear, or a synchronizer is stuck or dragging. The shifter will still work perfectly. But letting the clutch out,with the engine running, in any other gear than the affected one will result in a stall.
That 903 has funky 50s technology inverted synchronizers with floating parts, and a non-synchronized first/reverse gear. The parts were just barely adequate for the job in their original application. Back in the late 70s, I rebuilt hundreds of those, sometimes 8 or more a day. Farmers used them for all kinds of applications other than their intended applications. Interesting anecdote,lol.
Click to expand...
TrailBeast said:
I guess this got missed, as he said "the entire brake system is torn apart due to me preparing to change everything from the master cylinder back, all fluids changed except diff."

Which means to me he is seeing bare axles turning, and no brakes to stop them.
Automatics and manuals both can do this in neutral.
In park an automatic doesn't do this because the output shaft of the trans is physically locked.
Click to expand...
Wow! Thank you guys for all the replies and knowledge.
I went to the shop, wedged the axles with a bar to keep them from spinning, started the car, and hopped out to check out how much force was being sent to the rear end. Turns out you guys were correct, they will just spin when there isn't anything holding them, like tires on the ground. I unwedged the axle, it started spinning with the driveline, but I could stop it with just my hand.
Thank you guys so, so much. I was seriously worried about either a linkage issue, or something wonky in the trans. You all set my mind at ease figuring this out. I can't believe how this car has challenged me every step of the way, but I know it's worth it and a great learning experience.
Thanks again!!
 
Taebombo said:
I can't believe how this car has challenged me every step of the way, but I know it's worth it and a great learning experience.
Thanks again!!
Click to expand...

Mine did the same thing, and they were stupid little things.
I told the Wife one day that it seemed like the car is making sure I'm worthy or something.
A little time together and I guess it decided, as it's been one of the most reliable and fun cars I have ever owned.
 
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