Bonneville Landspeed Racing - Let's Try a Thing.

[TT5.9mag]

Record is like 265mph. Would need about 1500hp and some financial backing. So, if you are good with getting sponsors....

I’ve got a 1200hp turbo LS I could ship to you. Couple more psi and some methanol and you’re there. I couldn’t let you do that though. Ultimately, get the car out on the salt and make runs, have fun, make memories that you’ll never regret. If you get serious about setting that record, I’d gladly help procure sponsorship and I know some people that know some people. We could probably get a few names on the car.

 

[71GSSDemon]

I’ve got a 1200hp turbo LS I could ship to you. Couple more psi and some methanol and you’re there. I couldn’t let you do that though. Ultimately, get the car out on the salt and make runs, have fun, make memories that you’ll never regret. If you get serious about setting that record, I’d gladly help procure sponsorship and I know some people that know some people. We could probably get a few names on the car.

Thanks! No, not an LS even if the power is right. As for sponsors, we can discuss that once I make it to the salt and go like 75mph

 

[71GSSDemon]

So. I have been working on the door bars. Decided on something similar to hybrid Nascar bars. I think they'll work well for the space. And I didn't have to gut the doors

 

[MOPARMAGA]

So. I have been working on the door bars. Decided on something similar to hybrid Nascar bars. I think they'll work well for the space. And I didn't have to gut the doors

View attachment 1716251284

Looking good dude

 

[71GSSDemon]

And the other side is tacked in

 

[71GSSDemon]

I believe I have the last 4 bars cut, coped and tacked in. Then started working on the C500 grill. I also decided on a 1970 Road Runner rear bumper for thr front to get a sort of air dam effect. Also some skeleton work on the fender modifications needed to make it work together.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

I believe I have the last 4 bars cut, coped and tacked in. Then started working on the C500 grill. I also decided on a 1970 Road Runner rear bumper for thr front to get a sort of air dam effect. Also some skeleton work on the fender modifications needed to make it work together.

View attachment 1716260769

View attachment 1716260770

View attachment 1716260771

That sir, is going to be excellent looking !

 

[71GSSDemon]

Been a while since I posted anything. Been working on finish welding, seat belt anchor plates, tubs etc. I my daily thoughts of HP needs, I started to question compression ratio and boost, how they correlate and what to do. While discussing with a friend, he shed some light on it for me:

The simplified version is to use the ideal gas law PV=nRT to calculate your starting molar mass "n" by translating to (PV)/(RT) = n. P = Pressure, V = volume, R = gas constant, T = Temperature. Starting volume is cylinder displacement, starting pressure would be 90 kpa for naturally aspirated and 90 kPa + (boost pressure*0.90) for pressure charged. Estimating based on expected volumetric efficiency (90%). Temperature will be expected intake charge temperatures. 35C for N/A and 60C for pressure charged. You can then calculate the molar mass at bottom dead center / cylinder filling.



You know the compression ratio, so you know V1 (volume 1) and V2 (compressed volume 2). So you can use the equation (P1xV1)/V2 = P2. To find your compressed cylinder pressure. Once you have P2, you can again use PV=nRT to calculate your compressed T2 temperature. (P2 xV2)/(nxR) = T. Now that is purely compression based temperature changes, but for spark ignited engines, the ignition is before TDC and peak cylinder pressure will rise well above the static compression ratio pressure rise.



Which is where "late" ignition comes into play. Where you delay the ignition of a pressure charged engine to limit the maximum cylinder pressure (Pmax), which limits your maximum cylinder temperature, which directly impacts the propensity of knock. This is also done on naturally aspirated engines, but not to the same extent. For example, an engine with 10:1 CR runs a maximum cylinder pressure of around 60 Bar. The another with 8.5:1 CR runs nearly the identical maximum cylinder pressure of 60 Bar, but the angle of Pmax is much later in the cycle, the area under the curve is much larger, so it generates more power.



The lower 8.5CR reduces the initial cylinder pressure / temperature of compression, which limits the propensity of knock and allows late ignition. The trade off is a loss in thermal efficiency due to the loss in expansion ratio. Which requires additional air mass flow (more boost pressure) to make up the difference again. That trade-off shows up in brake specific fuel consumption which will be much higher.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Been a while since I posted anything. Been working on finish welding, seat belt anchor plates, tubs etc. I my daily thoughts of HP needs, I started to question compression ratio and boost, how they correlate and what to do. While discussing with a friend, he shed some light on it for me:

The simplified version is to use the ideal gas law PV=nRT to calculate your starting molar mass "n" by translating to (PV)/(RT) = n. P = Pressure, V = volume, R = gas constant, T = Temperature. Starting volume is cylinder displacement, starting pressure would be 90 kpa for naturally aspirated and 90 kPa + (boost pressure*0.90) for pressure charged. Estimating based on expected volumetric efficiency (90%). Temperature will be expected intake charge temperatures. 35C for N/A and 60C for pressure charged. You can then calculate the molar mass at bottom dead center / cylinder filling.



You know the compression ratio, so you know V1 (volume 1) and V2 (compressed volume 2). So you can use the equation (P1xV1)/V2 = P2. To find your compressed cylinder pressure. Once you have P2, you can again use PV=nRT to calculate your compressed T2 temperature. (P2 xV2)/(nxR) = T. Now that is purely compression based temperature changes, but for spark ignited engines, the ignition is before TDC and peak cylinder pressure will rise well above the static compression ratio pressure rise.



Which is where "late" ignition comes into play. Where you delay the ignition of a pressure charged engine to limit the maximum cylinder pressure (Pmax), which limits your maximum cylinder temperature, which directly impacts the propensity of knock. This is also done on naturally aspirated engines, but not to the same extent. For example, an engine with 10:1 CR runs a maximum cylinder pressure of around 60 Bar. The another with 8.5:1 CR runs nearly the identical maximum cylinder pressure of 60 Bar, but the angle of Pmax is much later in the cycle, the area under the curve is much larger, so it generates more power.



The lower 8.5CR reduces the initial cylinder pressure / temperature of compression, which limits the propensity of knock and allows late ignition. The trade off is a loss in thermal efficiency due to the loss in expansion ratio. Which requires additional air mass flow (more boost pressure) to make up the difference again. That trade-off shows up in brake specific fuel consumption which will be much higher.

Your friend is a smart dude. In simple terms,
1. More compression ratio and less boost, more timing.

2. Less compression ratio, more boost, less timing.

One has a propensity to knock more than the other at the same power level and one will use more fuel. The variable always being inlet temperature. If you are not octane limited, it really doesn’t matter.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

Your friend is a smart dude. In simple terms,
1. More compression ratio and less boost, more timing.

2. Less compression ratio, more boost, less timing.

One has a propensity to knock more than the other at the same power level and one will use more fuel. The variable always being inlet temperature. If you are not octane limited, it really doesn’t matter.

Sounds like you're a smart dude too

 

[TT5.9mag]

Sounds like you're a smart dude too

Only on Thursdays.

 

[71GSSDemon]

Only on Thursdays.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

Only on Thursdays.

I'd be smart today too but I'm bored at work lol

 

[Dale Davies]

Y

I'd be smart today too but I'm bored at work lol

Your NA inlet temp is low for Bonneville. Common to see 105°F there, which is more like 40°C.
Weight is your friend on the salt.
To run boost, use a boost retard coupled through a Bosch relay. Power the boost retard off the 87a terminal. This will retard the timing on startup. Use a boost switch or vacuum switch to energize the 85/86 control circuit of the relay when vacuum drops or boost comes up and just before detonation would be a problem. This then shuts off the timing retard as the relay switches power to the 87 terminal. Power water injection with that. You can get away with a bit leaner mixture, but you need 2° to 5° more advance with water. Start with 2°. The amount of retard is programmed into the box. Set your timing with the relay energized.
Also remember Bonneville is fairly high. They do post weather conditions with density altitude condition for tuning.

 

[cojohnso]

The money and attention needs to go to chassis setup first. You'll need to greatly lower stance to cut the wind from underneath. It's even more important than drag racing sense low pressure under the vehicle has more time to generate. Which causes lift. Spoilers and wings to counter only adds drag that bleeds off energy produced by engine and drivetrain output. It's why Nascar has the splitter and stance so low to the track. A Bonneville build is typically significant higher speeds. Weight is an additional concern.

It's almost like designing an ultra light aeroplane. But in reverse. With no lifting wings of course.

Engine is actually easier. With many options today to make the power needed for 200+ MPH.

The challenge is not as popular because in the end you have nothing that is usable other than a top speed attempt. Most need external push to get going due to the extreme high gear set.

 

[Dale Davies]

The money and attention needs to go to chassis setup first. You'll need to greatly lower stance to cut the wind from underneath. It's even more important than drag racing sense low pressure under the vehicle has more time to generate. Which causes lift. Spoilers and wings to counter only adds drag that bleeds off energy produced by engine and drivetrain output. It's why Nascar has the splitter and stance so low to the track. A Bonneville build is typically significant higher speeds. Weight is an additional concern.

It's almost like designing an ultra light aeroplane. But in reverse. With no lifting wings of course.

Engine is actually easier. With many options today to make the power needed for 200+ MPH.

The challenge is not as popular because in the end you have nothing that is usable other than a top speed attempt. Most need external push to get going due to the extreme high gear set.

Well aware.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

Y

Your NA inlet temp is low for Bonneville. Common to see 105°F there, which is more like 40°C.
Weight is your friend on the salt.
To run boost, use a boost retard coupled through a Bosch relay. Power the boost retard off the 87a terminal. This will retard the timing on startup. Use a boost switch or vacuum switch to energize the 85/86 control circuit of the relay when vacuum drops or boost comes up and just before detonation would be a problem. This then shuts off the timing retard as the relay switches power to the 87 terminal. Power water injection with that. You can get away with a bit leaner mixture, but you need 2° to 5° more advance with water. Start with 2°. The amount of retard is programmed into the box. Set your timing with the relay energized.
Also remember Bonneville is fairly high. They do post weather conditions with density altitude condition for tuning.

@71GSSDemon this is for you .

 

[cojohnso]

Well aware.

I looked into this. And got spooked. Doesn't mean you should be spooked. I still to this day think of that adventure. And today have a couple ideas as well as better vehicle and more funding options.

I hope you make it happen.

 

[TT5.9mag]

@71GSSDemon this is for you .

And honestly a bunch of useless ramblings.

 

[71GSSDemon]

I believe at Speed Week density altitude was about 6200ft at one point a week ago. I know normal elevation is ~4200ft. My plan is an air damn to bring the front withing 1.5" of the ground, ducted venting where allowed, side skirts, and a pro stock style spoiler with the tallest endplates, and vertices I am allowed. Spoilers and vents, depending on what class, can help greatly, also can slow you down. It is about balance. Enough weight to have traction, enough downforce for traction and stability without too much drag, if air goes under the car, how to get it out and take advantage of it. There is always a tradeoff. Hp is king as long as you can get it to the ground with the lack of available traction.

 

[71GSSDemon]

Y

Your NA inlet temp is low for Bonneville. Common to see 105°F there, which is more like 40°C.
Weight is your friend on the salt.
To run boost, use a boost retard coupled through a Bosch relay. Power the boost retard off the 87a terminal. This will retard the timing on startup. Use a boost switch or vacuum switch to energize the 85/86 control circuit of the relay when vacuum drops or boost comes up and just before detonation would be a problem. This then shuts off the timing retard as the relay switches power to the 87 terminal. Power water injection with that. You can get away with a bit leaner mixture, but you need 2° to 5° more advance with water. Start with 2°. The amount of retard is programmed into the box. Set your timing with the relay energized.
Also remember Bonneville is fairly high. They do post weather conditions with density altitude condition for tuning.

Thanks. Yes it was a formula based on here in WI or at least generic and all temps would be required to be filled in based on your location.

 

[Dale Davies]

I believe at Speed Week density altitude was about 6200ft at one point a week ago. I know normal elevation is ~4200ft. My plan is an air damn to bring the front withing 1.5" of the ground, ducted venting where allowed, side skirts, and a pro stock style spoiler with the tallest endplates, and vertices I am allowed. Spoilers and vents, depending on what class, can help greatly, also can slow you down. It is about balance. Enough weight to have traction, enough downforce for traction and stability without too much drag, if air goes under the car, how to get it out and take advantage of it. There is always a tradeoff. Hp is king as long as you can out it to the ground with the lack of available traction.

Have you joined BNI? Talk to tech inspectors, especially the cage construction. You can build a safe car to go fast or pick a class with what you believe is a vulnerable record. Cage/chassis requirements change with intended/potential speed.
IMHO you are making progress. Best to involve the tech inspectors now before you get too far along.

 

[Oldiron440]

You might have covered it but what class are you building the car for?

 

[71GSSDemon]

Have you joined BNI? Talk to yech inspectors, especially the cage construction. You can build a safe car to go fast or pick a class with what you believe is a vulnerable record. Cage/chassis requirements change with inyended/potential speed.
IMHO you are making progress. Best to involve the yech inspectors now before you get too far along.

Yes, I am a member of SCTA/BNI and USFRA. I have the rule books and have all if the green lights that can be done via pictures. I am in contact with the Chief Chassis Inspector, Steve Davies regularly. Anything can change once thr car gets hauled out there, but for now it is all go. Currently we believe it will fit in C/GALT. Later in C/BGALT.

 

[71GSSDemon]

You might have covered it but what class are you building the car for?

Classic Gas Altered is the plan. Later Classic Blown Gas (or fuel) Altered. The records are way inside my wallet, so the personal goal is to #1 build a car myself, pass tech, and make a run, not caring anything about speed. #2 throw hp at it and see if I can go 200mph. Licensing happens along the way, but that is the plan. I will be at World of Speed in a couple weeks to help a friend with a Lakster. Should learn a bunch while there.