Cam Experts: Lobe Separation Angle?

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middleagecrisis

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I'm confused on LSA and its effect on cylinder pressure, particularly at low RPM. I did some internet searches and came up with the following:
"A narrow angle will increase cylinder pressure, make an engine idle worse and reduce idle vacuum. Cylinder pressure increases because after the exhaust stroke, the piston is pulling air into the cylinder. If the intake valve opens earlier, more air can be sucked into the cylinder."
I'm putting together a 360 that came with flat top forged pistons that have the factory pin height, which is going to give me a lower compression ratio with the 340 heads I plan to run. I will be sending my old purple cam off for an Oregon Cam regrind to their 1176 specs, which has a LSA of 110. Ken suggested I have it reground using a 114 LSA for my lower compression. The drivetrain is built (4.10 gears, 3K stall converter) for this camshaft, just battling the lower compression (8.5-1) issue. The above statement on narrow LSA seems to contradict itself. I want to build more cylinder pressure for my lower compression. Help me understand whether 110 or 114 is better to build cylinder pressure and why?
 
This guy gas some great videos

 
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Ken Heard can answer your questions better than anyone else here.
 
Wow, that's a lot of information to digest. I get what he's saying, but changing LSA is going to have an effect of some kind. I think there's a simpler answer than LSA doesn't matter, it's how the cam is designed.
Problem is you will find 100 experts and get 100 different opinions on LSA.... whoever you buy your cam from is who i would listen to. but that's just me... i picked my cam using vizards formula and it's ok... hard to know if it's good or not without another couple cams to compare against :)
 
A compression test will tell you the truth.

There is no way, no way I'd use a 114 in anything under 14:1 compression. And even then the heads would have to be pretty damn good to get that wide. And it would need to be over 7500 rpm.

Even at 110 you'd be a bit wide.

If nothing else, use the Vizard 128 math. That will get you a lot closer than guessing.
 
A compression test will tell you the truth.

There is no way, no way I'd use a 114 in anything under 14:1 compression. And even then the heads would have to be pretty damn good to get that wide. And it would need to be over 7500 rpm.

Even at 110 you'd be a bit wide.

If nothing else, use the Vizard 128 math. That will get you a lot closer than guessing.
The 114 suggestion came from me saying that I might slap a 6-71 blower on it the distant future. Ken said the 114 would keep me from blowing out boost on the exhaust side. I've since given up on the blower idea. Looking at naturally aspirated now and for the future with this motor.
 
Now the whole situation and recommendation basis out.

114, nope not in a low compression NA engine. Mopar did a 114 LSA 484 or 508 camshaft, biggest POS ever cut
 
the '68 340 speed was cam was 114 LSA. I haven't heard anybody say the engine was a dog. Its foolish to look at one number without considering all the other cam and engine specs.
 
I am NOT a cam guru, in any form, but...... from what I have read and seen of dyno tests, I like a tight lobe sep angle.
Tight lsa's seem to give better midrange horsepower and torque, give up a tiny bit of power at the very top of the rpm band and idle shittier, all due to increased overlap.
Since supercharged engines, and late model fuel injected engines HATE overlap quite a bit wider Lsa's are used, THATS why a 114 was suggested.
I have a cam dynamics roller ground on 104 that I really wanted to use..... but the conrods hit it, so it's sitting on a shelf.
I think the 557 purple in my motor is on 108 (Or maybe even 106. I wish.)
 
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the '68 340 speed was cam was 114 LSA. I haven't heard anybody say the engine was a dog. Its foolish to look at one number without considering all the other cam and engine specs.

It wasn’t a performance cam either. Using one example is foolish.

Anyone that thinks when making power that LSA doesn’t matter just doesn’t get it.

Another poor example is looking at engines that are running high rpm with max compression and considering that LSA. Some use a very wide LSA to get the top of the piston with less valve notches.

The argument that it’s not LSA that matters but the events only look at one side of the equation. It is the cumulative of the events. Moving the events changes the LSA and changing the LSA changes the events.

Compression ratio, effective compression ratio, rod to stroke ratio and where you want to make peak torque has a major impact on LSA and ICL.
 
If the OP posts his bore, stroke, rod length, compression ratio, the effective compression ratio he wants and the rpm of peak torque and peak power I will run some math and post the results.
 
It wasn’t a performance cam either. Using one example is foolish.

Anyone that thinks when making power that LSA doesn’t matter just doesn’t get it.

Another poor example is looking at engines that are running high rpm with max compression and considering that LSA. Some use a very wide LSA to get the top of the piston with less valve notches.

The argument that it’s not LSA that matters but the events only look at one side of the equation. It is the cumulative of the events. Moving the events changes the LSA and changing the LSA changes the events.

Compression ratio, effective compression ratio, rod to stroke ratio and where you want to make peak torque has a major impact on LSA and ICL.
The only foolish thing said is your generalizing based on one number. Do you think Ken at Oregon is foolish for recommending 114 LSA? Perhaps you know it all. Everybody likes to make recommendations without even knowing the intended use. Do you want a wide power band or do you want something a little more peaky? Some people like that and some don't. Nobody is saying LSA doesn't matter its just one number in the equation.
 
Based on what the OP put up first, then says Oh I was going to put a blower on it, makes the cam recommended by Ken sensible.

Carry on about how the 4 speed cam was so great. They were small, like most every mopar camshaft, compared to the other majors at the time. Dinky stuff.

The majors also were beginning the emissions era and had to take that into account when engineering this stuff. I'd bet money that if they wanted the stuff to run better that cutting that cam or the std 340 (on a 112 IIRC) wouldn't have been the final decision.
 
Listen to your preferred cam grinder. The only way to get the exact results you want is to test alot of grinds and dyno time. If you pick the right cam grinder, he will have that experience. I’ve heard alot of good things on here about Oregon cam grinders. Mike Jones has a good rep as well. With the more common cam companies the only thing to worry about is if the cam specs they say are actually how the cam is really ground. A cam doctor test reveals this. I doubt I will ever run a comp cams. I would look for a cam grinder that uses a CNC cam grinding machine and checks what he ground for accuracy.
 
The only foolish thing said is your generalizing based on one number. Do you think Ken at Oregon is foolish for recommending 114 LSA? Perhaps you know it all. Everybody likes to make recommendations without even knowing the intended use. Do you want a wide power band or do you want something a little more peaky? Some people like that and some don't. Nobody is saying LSA doesn't matter its just one number in the equation.


See post 17. The OP didn’t say blower at first.

Again, I’m not running a 114 LSA on anything under 14:1.

I don’t know it all but I sure as **** know better than that.
 
Thanks for the inputs everyone, let's not argue. I left the 110 vs. 114 comparisons up as point of discussion, not to go into the details of why 114 was there in the first place. I was (still am) confused over how overlap (tight LSA) at idle can create an initial higher cranking psi. Case in point, I once had a 406 SBC that had a solid lifter circle track cam with 106 LSA, very detonation prone. I later changed out the cam to a milder hydraulic with 110/112 (long time ago) LSA, shorter duration, nothing else changed. That same motor ran fine on 89 octane unleaded. I guess that's partial evidence that tighter LSA can produce higher initial cranking psi. I don't have any power accessories on this car and it's a weekend only ride, so low vacuum and rowdy idle isn't an issue. Would a 106-108 LSA build up higher cranking pressure for my low compression combo?
 
IMO
Post 15, is on the money.
IMO
the 340 cam in the hi-compression 340 only worked as well as it did because of the package it was in, which included; a high compression ratio, log manifolds, a lightweight chassis, and limited rpm in a street application.
IMO
that 114LSA which may have worked well-enough in 1969, on the street; Today, that thinking is dead in the water, and there are many cams that can do a better job on the top; and if you match them up with high cylinder pressure, can carry the power right down to the bottom-end; which is always important for a street car with a manual trans.
IMO
Since 1970, I've had four 340 cars, all 4speed/3.55, all with that stinking cam in them. All of them laid down at about 85 mph. which is 5500rpm in Third gear. I had guys in 440 New Yorker family boats, and such, that I annihilated off the line, that by 75 were getting bigger in my mirror, and pulling on my bumper by 80, and had I not specified
"I only race to 85", they wouldda had me in the quarter, which none of my stockers could break 100mph; not even the nearly brand new one that I bought in fall of 1970.
BTW
My favorite of three cams I have run in my 367, was a Hughes HE2330AL This cam had it all, and if it had not lost lobes in 2004, I would still be running it. The duration specs were;
270intake/116comp./111power/276exhaust/110LSA/53*olap/Ica of 64
compared to the 340;
268intake/114comp./106power/276exhaust/114LSA/44*olap/Ica of 66


That doesn't look much different does it? Look again. 53* overlap compared to 44* AND more importantly, I run headers whereas the 340 ran logs. So you might as well say the 340 cam had NO EFFECTIVE overlap, because the exhaust was not tuned.
My 11/1, 367 ran 106mph with that Hughes cam, with a 4-speed/3.55s and hauling more than 300 pounds more than that 70 Dart I had, which ran 98 and change.
Oh and check out the difference in the Power strokes; 111 compared to 106. Even with my modest 53* overlap, and headers, my 367 annihilated fuel economy that a 340 car could only dream of. Even a stock lo-compression 318 couldn't touch it.

Ok but what makes that difference?
Well check out the relationship between LSA and overlap. First my Hughes, then the 340
110LSA to 53* overlap
114LSA to 44* overlap
4* change, to 9* change. IF the 340 cam had been on a 110, it would have measured
110LSA to 52* overlap, and then it would have been a reasonable cam.
As it happens, every 1* change in LSA, with no other changes, produces a 2* change in overlap. Overlap makes Power and has been called, "the Fifth Cycle".
IMO
overlaps in the range of 50>58 or so, make good street power, with good fuel economy. By the time you get to 68>78* yur more strip than street, and forget economy. Thus the window for a street/strip car is 58>68, which you can bias for economy on the low-end, to power on the upper end.
Having said all that,
IMO
cutting a 318 cam on a 106 LSA is not gonna amount to much, cuz the events are already too short at the factory 112*. So then, the LSA has to be matched to the rest of the events, to produce the desired results, OR,
to get the most out of whatever cam is chosen, the engine has to be built around it.
My current cam is advertised at 61*overlap, and it sux gas pretty bad. But nothing as bad as when I had the 292/292/108 cam that boasted 76* overlap. But the poor fuel economy is NOT all in the overlap.
IMO
If you compare the PowerStrokes, you can see exactly where the fuel economy went.
122>118 for the stock 318 cam; straight up, to +4 .
111>107 for my Hughes 2330, straight-up to +4
106>103 for my current Hughes 3037, straight up to +4
106>104 for the 340 cam, straight up, to +4
106>102 for the 292 cam, straight up to +4,
Heaven help you if you have to advance the 292 cam to in at 100*, to find cylinder pressure for bottom end, as, the power stroke drops to 98*, and you can see the gas gauge dropping every mile. If you gotta do that to get the pressure up, IMO, you got the wrong cam for the current engine configuration. I ditched that cam as soon as I figured that out, in it's first summer.
FYI
Opening the exhaust valve early, produces short Powerstrokes at cruise-rpm, which sends pressurized exhaust gasses out into the pipes, pressure which could have been used to push the car thru that 65mph wind. If you have log-manifolds like a factory 340, then some of those end gasses may end up in the intake at the end of the exhaust stroke. You'll see the evidence in the intake ports on teardown.
At high rpm, those short power strokes make Power for two reasons;
1) you got between two and three times as many of them in any given time period, and
2) the overlap cycle, with headers, is now working for you, instead of against.

Just my 2cents.
 
I wonder what LSA LS engines use.... seeing as they are the greatest american V8 ever made.. might just wanna look into that....

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Wow, that's a lot of information to digest. I get what he's saying, but changing LSA is going to have an effect of some kind. I think there's a simpler answer than LSA doesn't matter, it's how the cam is designed.
It matters, but I believe what he's trying to convey in a most complex and convoluted way is that for what 99% or more people are doing, it won't amount to a hill of beans difference and I agree with him. Look what the automakers used for most performance camshafts. Wide LSAs. 113-116 normally. Yet, when people ask about what camshaft to choose for a given build, people piss all over anything with a 110 or greater, when those wider LSAs above 110 are what's been PROVEN to work well on the street for......wait for it..........DECADES. But people still won't listen to what's been proven. While it's may be true you might make more peak power with a narrow LSA, a lot of other things come with it. Lower vacuum signal. A rougher idle. It can make an engine more "picky" as far as the details with running. Makes them more "moody" if you will. These are undisputed facts. Yet people keep right on building engines with race oriented camshaft specs to drive on the street 24/7. Yeah, I know. Here come all the "Mine's on a 108 or 106 and it runs great blah blah blah....." Yeah. Ok.
 
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