Car starts without key!

[plumkrazee70]

Hello Everyone,

I'm having trouble with the ignition switch/starter relay. I've been working on my 70 Dart for awhile now and almost finished. The previous owner had a push button start in the car, but would shut off when the key was in the 'off' position. I saw the yellow ignition wire was cut at the relay and I rewired it.

I hooked up the battery today to make sure I got power to the gauges and the starter motor immediately turned over when the ground cable was touched to the post and the the key was in the off position.

I have done some research and think its the ignition switch itself. I'm pretty sure that I have the starter relay wired correctly. I have it wired as follows:

Large starter wire: to starter relay post.
Battery positive: to starter relay post. (Battery in trunk)
Small starter wire: to 'square' post on relay.
1st Push on connector: to Ground. (NSS is not hooked up, just going to ground)

2nd Push on connector: Yellow ignition switch wire. (Traced back to bulkhead and wire looks good, inside car, coming out of the bulkhead looks to be untouched)

If I remove the yellow wire from the relay it does not turn over when the battery is connected.

Should I replace the ignition switch or is it something else? I have the Haynes manual, but have a hard time following wiring diagrams.

Thanks for the help.

 

[67Dart273]

Easy to find out. Unhook the yellow from the relay, and hook up the battery with key off

Unhook both wires from the ballast resistor to prevent feedback in tests

Access the connector of the ignition switch up under the column and see what is hot and what is not with a test lamp

What do you have for diagrams/ shop manual?

Starting at one end of the connector, you should have

No18 Yellow is your start wire and is hot only in "start"

Large no 12 Black is switched accessory power OUT to fuse panel switched buss, and should be hot in "run" or "acc"

No 16 dark blue should ONLY be hot in "run" and is the ignition buss supplying the alternator field, regulator IGN terminal, and ignition, as well as cluster/ gauges/ warning lamp(s)

No 14 Brown is the ballast bypass circuit and is hot ONLY in start, feeds power to the coil + side of the ballast resistor. This is the only ignition source during "crank." This wire is why you need to unhook the ballast for testing

No 12 Red is power coming INTO the switch from the ammeter/ harness splice and should always be hot

Then orange, red, red not part of the problem

If you are getting voltage when you should not DO NOT assume it's the switch. You may be getting a feedback loop from another circuit. To find out, unhook the ignition switch at the connector, "normal" the connections under the hood, and see if the problem returns.

"Usable" diagrams from MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Two pages of diagrams:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartA.JPG

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartB.JPG

70 factory shop manual thanks to AbodyJoe

[ame]http://www.abodyjoe.com/pictures/Misc.%20car%20info/70%20Dart%20Challenger%20Serv%20Man1.pdf[/ame]

 

[plumkrazee70]

Easy to find out. Unhook the yellow from the relay, and hook up the battery with key off

Unhook both wires from the ballast resistor to prevent feedback in tests

Access the connector of the ignition switch up under the column and see what is hot and what is not with a test lamp

What do you have for diagrams/ shop manual?

Starting at one end of the connector, you should have

No18 Yellow is your start wire and is hot only in "start"

Large no 12 Black is switched accessory power OUT to fuse panel switched buss, and should be hot in "run" or "acc"

No 16 dark blue should ONLY be hot in "run" and is the ignition buss supplying the alternator field, regulator IGN terminal, and ignition, as well as cluster/ gauges/ warning lamp(s)

No 14 Brown is the ballast bypass circuit and is hot ONLY in start, feeds power to the coil + side of the ballast resistor. This is the only ignition source during "crank." This wire is why you need to unhook the ballast for testing

No 12 Red is power coming INTO the switch from the ammeter/ harness splice and should always be hot

Then orange, red, red not part of the problem

If you are getting voltage when you should not DO NOT assume it's the switch. You may be getting a feedback loop from another circuit. To find out, unhook the ignition switch at the connector, "normal" the connections under the hood, and see if the problem returns.

"Usable" diagrams from MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Two pages of diagrams:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartA.JPG

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartB.JPG

70 factory shop manual thanks to AbodyJoe

http://www.abodyjoe.com/pictures/Misc. car info/70 Dart Challenger Serv Man1.pdf

Thanks for the quick reply. I will check this out tomorrow
after work. Should I start at the switch or the relay side of circuit?

 

[67Dart273]

The thing about checking the switch is that you can check all those wires quickly.

What I was thinking of "something crossed" example, is that if a harness suffers a short of some sort, even sometimes unrelated, the thermoplastic insulated conductors can melt/ weld inside the taped up harness and cause "interesting" effects

 

[plumkrazee70]

Easy to find out. Unhook the yellow from the relay, and hook up the battery with key off

Unhook both wires from the ballast resistor to prevent feedback in tests

Access the connector of the ignition switch up under the column and see what is hot and what is not with a test lamp

What do you have for diagrams/ shop manual?

Starting at one end of the connector, you should have

No18 Yellow is your start wire and is hot only in "start"

Large no 12 Black is switched accessory power OUT to fuse panel switched buss, and should be hot in "run" or "acc"

No 16 dark blue should ONLY be hot in "run" and is the ignition buss supplying the alternator field, regulator IGN terminal, and ignition, as well as cluster/ gauges/ warning lamp(s)

No 14 Brown is the ballast bypass circuit and is hot ONLY in start, feeds power to the coil + side of the ballast resistor. This is the only ignition source during "crank." This wire is why you need to unhook the ballast for testing

No 12 Red is power coming INTO the switch from the ammeter/ harness splice and should always be hot

Then orange, red, red not part of the problem

If you are getting voltage when you should not DO NOT assume it's the switch. You may be getting a feedback loop from another circuit. To find out, unhook the ignition switch at the connector, "normal" the connections under the hood, and see if the problem returns.

"Usable" diagrams from MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Two pages of diagrams:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartA.JPG

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1970/70DartB.JPG

70 factory shop manual thanks to AbodyJoe

http://www.abodyjoe.com/pictures/Misc. car info/70 Dart Challenger Serv Man1.pdf

So this is what I got.

Yellow: hot with key off and cranking.
Black: 0 with key off and in run
Blue: 0 in run and in off
Brown: 0 when cranking
Red: hot all the time
All tests on male side of plug. I didn't have time to dive into harness, bit I did notice the ammeter wires were melted together. Does this have anything to do with it?

Thanks for the help.

 

[67Dart273]

Sounds to me like the switch is AFU

I would pull the switch connector and make some continuity tests. For tests like this, it is better to use a "big" lamp which will put a certain amount of load on the contacts. That is in comparison to an ohmeter, which draws a tiny amount of current, and can be "fooled" by a "somewhat" switch contact.

What I like to use is an old stop / tail light. I actually have an old stop/ tail socket, so I can hook the bulb up several ways......

1---Using the stop wire and the tail wire, this puts the two bulb filaments in series, draws the "least" amount of current

2---Use the tail wire and the socket ground draws somewhat more current

3---Use the stop wire and the socket ground draws more current yet

4---Wire both stop and tail wires together as one, and use socket ground, and so not you have both bulb filaments in parallel to draw "the most" current.

This old socket and bulb is VERY handy for a lot of this kind of "stuff."

You can also use this socket to act as a resistor, when using a 6-10 amp battery charger to charge a tiny trailer brake or bike battery.


ANY.........HOW................

So take your "big" test bulb, making sure everything is safe, and haywire it to battery +, and hook a good solid clip lead to a good ground. So now you have the ground clip in one hand and the bulb socket connection in the other. Touch them together, the bulb should light.

NOW you can use those same two electrical points to hook to the ignition switch

Hook one of these to the large red (battery in) and move the other to each other color, depending on where the key "is."

'OFF' the red should not be continuous to anything else

both "run" and "accessory" the red should be continuous to the large black

In "run" the red should be continuous to "dark blue"

In "start" the red should be continuous to yellow


and red also should be continuous to brown.

 

[plumkrazee70]

Sounds to me like the switch is AFU

I would pull the switch connector and make some continuity tests. For tests like this, it is better to use a "big" lamp which will put a certain amount of load on the contacts. That is in comparison to an ohmeter, which draws a tiny amount of current, and can be "fooled" by a "somewhat" switch contact.

What I like to use is an old stop / tail light. I actually have an old stop/ tail socket, so I can hook the bulb up several ways......

1---Using the stop wire and the tail wire, this puts the two bulb filaments in series, draws the "least" amount of current

2---Use the tail wire and the socket ground draws somewhat more current

3---Use the stop wire and the socket ground draws more current yet

4---Wire both stop and tail wires together as one, and use socket ground, and so not you have both bulb filaments in parallel to draw "the most" current.

This old socket and bulb is VERY handy for a lot of this kind of "stuff."

You can also use this socket to act as a resistor, when using a 6-10 amp battery charger to charge a tiny trailer brake or bike battery.


ANY.........HOW................

So take your "big" test bulb, making sure everything is safe, and haywire it to battery +, and hook a good solid clip lead to a good ground. So now you have the ground clip in one hand and the bulb socket connection in the other. Touch them together, the bulb should light.

NOW you can use those same two electrical points to hook to the ignition switch

Hook one of these to the large red (battery in) and move the other to each other color, depending on where the key "is."

'OFF' the red should not be continuous to anything else

both "run" and "accessory" the red should be continuous to the large black

In "run" the red should be continuous to "dark blue"

In "start" the red should be continuous to yellow


and red also should be continuous to brown.

I am a little un clear on the big test light. I don't have any extra light Socket. Can I use my ohm meter? When you say pull the switch connector, are you meaning take steering wheel off and get access to ignition switch, and test continuity from the switch to the connector?

I really appreciate your help.

 

[67Dart273]

Yes, unhook the switch so it's isolated. What I'm getting at is use a light bulb with a fairly heavy filament and a battery to test the continuity of the switch NOT an ohmeter

When you test something like a switch, which makes and breaks, and may be intermittent, using a test device ("big lamp") which puts more current through the test device helps to show up problems which the ohmeter might NOT show.

You have any junker bulb sockets, or can you get one? How about a headlight?

 

[plumkrazee70]

Yes, unhook the switch so it's isolated. What I'm getting at is use a light bulb with a fairly heavy filament and a battery to test the continuity of the switch NOT an ohmeter

When you test something like a switch, which makes and breaks, and may be intermittent, using a test device ("big lamp") which puts more current through the test device helps to show up problems which the ohmeter might NOT show.

You have any junker bulb sockets, or can you get one? How about a headlight?

I have a old headlight old sealed style with the 3 prongs on the back. How will that hook up work?

 

[briankaplan]

An old single filament bulb works great. A tail light or backup light with a socket is best. That's what I used when I was working. Put a couple long
leads on it with a gator style clip on one end and a probe style on the other.

 

[plumkrazee70]

An old single filament bulb works great. A tail light or backup light with a socket is best. That's what I used when I was working. Put a couple long
leads on it with a gator style clip on one end and a probe style on the other.

I wish I had an extra one to use. I only have what is currently on the car.

 

[67Dart273]

You can buy 'em at parts stores, or if you have a junkyard nearby..................

Can you solder? You can just take a dome light bulb (example)

1004 is dual contact, solder wires carefully to each of the two contacts, leave the base unconnected

1003 is single contact, get one with a brass shell (yellow color) and solder a wire to the shell or clamp a wire there with a fuel hose clamp, and solder a wire to the contact.

 

[plumkrazee70]

You can buy 'em at parts stores, or if you have a junkyard nearby..................

Can you solder? You can just take a dome light bulb (example)

1004 is dual contact, solder wires carefully to each of the two contacts, leave the base unconnected

1003 is single contact, get one with a brass shell (yellow color) and solder a wire to the shell or clamp a wire there with a fuel hose clamp, and solder a wire to the contact.

Great call. I will try this. Thanks!

 

[RedFish]

Most cases of starter run the wires going to the starter are melted together. Yours isn't most cases but worth mentioning I guess. Good luck

 

[plumkrazee70]

Most cases of starter run the wires going to the starter are melted together. Yours isn't most cases but worth mentioning I guess. Good luck

I wish it were that easy. This is a all new build, I put the starter in and ran the wires. I of course will double check.

 

[plumkrazee70]

Sounds to me like the switch is AFU

I would pull the switch connector and make some continuity tests. For tests like this, it is better to use a "big" lamp which will put a certain amount of load on the contacts. That is in comparison to an ohmeter, which draws a tiny amount of current, and can be "fooled" by a "somewhat" switch contact.

What I like to use is an old stop / tail light. I actually have an old stop/ tail socket, so I can hook the bulb up several ways......

1---Using the stop wire and the tail wire, this puts the two bulb filaments in series, draws the "least" amount of current

2---Use the tail wire and the socket ground draws somewhat more current

3---Use the stop wire and the socket ground draws more current yet

4---Wire both stop and tail wires together as one, and use socket ground, and so not you have both bulb filaments in parallel to draw "the most" current.

This old socket and bulb is VERY handy for a lot of this kind of "stuff."

You can also use this socket to act as a resistor, when using a 6-10 amp battery charger to charge a tiny trailer brake or bike battery.


ANY.........HOW................

So take your "big" test bulb, making sure everything is safe, and haywire it to battery +, and hook a good solid clip lead to a good ground. So now you have the ground clip in one hand and the bulb socket connection in the other. Touch them together, the bulb should light.

NOW you can use those same two electrical points to hook to the ignition switch

Hook one of these to the large red (battery in) and move the other to each other color, depending on where the key "is."

'OFF' the red should not be continuous to anything else

both "run" and "accessory" the red should be continuous to the large black

In "run" the red should be continuous to "dark blue"

In "start" the red should be continuous to yellow


and red also should be continuous to brown.

OK I think I got it, please tell me if I'm wrong. What I did was:

Found a old style dual filament bulb, soldered a wire to each contact on the bottom of the bulb. Removed the in switch from column. Hooked up battery and back probed Big Red wire at ignition switch connection one of the soldered wires. The other soldered wire got moved to each color and was tested in each hey state. These are the results:

With ballast disconnected:

Blue: bulb lit every key position except Run.

Yellow: Nothing All positions

Black: Nothing All positions

Brown Nothing All positions

With ballast connected:

Blue: Off and acc bulb lit

Yellow: Nothing

Black: when switching from acc to run: small flicker dim light.

Brown: off and acc bulb lit

Looks to me that the sign switch is bad, especially since getting nothing at Yellow now, which is what was making the starter go.

Any input?

 

[67Dart273]

I would repeat the test, making absolutely certain you did it right, and did you? unhook the switch connector?

What you should have "in series" is this:

Your battery, positive unhooked, battery ground connected.

Your test circuit should be

battery ground---to battery---battery positive -- to light--light to red switch wire.

Then you should have a grounded clip lead which you can move to each other color of the switch, checking switch positions.

Sounds to me like the switch is bad, but this doesn't really explain why the starter was running, unless the switch is all broken inside, and when you removed it things moved around in there.

 

[plumkrazee70]

I would repeat the test, making absolutely certain you did it right, and did you? unhook the switch connector?

What you should have "in series" is this:

Your battery, positive unhooked, battery ground connected.

Your test circuit should be

battery ground---to battery---battery positive -- to light--light to red switch wire.

Then you should have a grounded clip lead which you can move to each other color of the switch, checking switch positions.

Sounds to me like the switch is bad, but this doesn't really explain why the starter was running, unless the switch is all broken inside, and when you removed it things moved around in there.

I'm going to repeat the test, I did not realize that the battery positive had to be disconnected. So If i hook it up correctly this is what it should look like:

Neg battery cable connected to battery post. Positive battery cable disconnected. One soldered wire of the bulb gets connected to positive cable. The other soldered wire gets probed to Big Red wire on switch. Then take a grounded lead and touch each wire in different key states?

Should the bulb be connected to the red wire at the plastic connector side and test each color at the ignition switch side, or does it matter?

Thanks again for helping me through this! This problem is holding me from firing the motor and being able to break it in.

 

[67Dart273]

The main reason for disconnecting the battery hot is to make sure nothing in the car "shorts"

You want the switch disconnected from the harness so it's completely isolated, so that is, separate the connector. You will be connecting the light and ground clips only to the switch.

 

[coffeedart67]

Just something to check is there still 2 wires running to the starter. You said the previous owner put a push button start in it. On circle track cars we run a copper strip from the bug lug to the small lug on the starter, then run the big cable to one side of a Ford starter solenoid, then a wire from a push button activates the solenoid sending power to the starter. Don't think this mod would work with a Chrysler solenoid, but it is worth a check.

 

[plumkrazee70]

Just something to check is there still 2 wires running to the starter. You said the previous owner put a push button start in it. On circle track cars we run a copper strip from the bug lug to the small lug on the starter, then run the big cable to one side of a Ford starter solenoid, then a wire from a push button activates the solenoid sending power to the starter. Don't think this mod would work with a Chrysler solenoid, but it is worth a check.

I followed the two wires coming from their push button and they were both going to the relay, don't remember exactly remember where. (Wasn't going to reuse so didn't care) The only wire I saw out of place was the yellow wire, it was disconnected. So naturally I hooked it back up where it was supposed to go on the relay. When I hooked the battery up, I found that the starter activated. It stops when the yellow wire is disconnected. I ordered a new sign switch, should be here tomorrow.

 

[plumkrazee70]

Sorry for the long delay in posting.. I installed the new ignition switch yesterday and the problem went away. I would only get 12V to the yellow wire when the key was in the run position.

A few things I found while I was installing the ignition switch I thought might be worth mentioning. I found later that day, that the problem would intermittently come back. (12V at yellow with key off). Thought that the ign switch was faulty, but decided to do some more tracking.

I followed the yellow wire very closely from the bulkhead inside the cabin and found that I had a short to power on another wire, causing it to receive 12V all the time. I fixed that and all was good.

Another thing I found was that after the install, the headlights and 12v acc would only sometimes work. I decided to investigate the "welded splice" off the black ammeter wire, and sure enough made a better connection there and all is good.

Thank you so much for all your help!! I will be firing this freshly built 340 this weekend, now that I got my wiring situation under control.

 

[67Dart273]

Sounds like you are making progress. I've sort of lost track. Be sure you read the MAD article, and if you do nothing else, inspect and repair the bulkhead/ firewall connector

If all "seems working" When you get it running and sorted out, warm it up and check the battery running (charging) voltage

 

[plumkrazee70]

Sounds like you are making progress. I've sort of lost track. Be sure you read the MAD article, and if you do nothing else, inspect and repair the bulkhead/ firewall connector

If all "seems working" When you get it running and sorted out, warm it up and check the battery running (charging) voltage

Yea it got a little confusing. Lol.

I by passed the factory ammeter by hooking the leads together with a screw and a nut. I made sure it was taped up good and away from ground. I'm going to upgrade the ammeter wiring once its running. I have volt meter now.