slantsixdan
=..=
And without any "softening" of the cast iron…how cool!
Gosh, 1930, I'm sorry you don't like my posts. Um…who's forcing you to read them…?
cleaning up the slant six head
- Thread starter 1930
- Start date
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And without any "softening" of the cast iron…how cool!
Gosh, 1930, I'm sorry you don't like my posts. Um…who's forcing you to read them…?
So your intent is to kill off this thread because you don't like the conclusions? Let's hear yours then, because posts like this are rapidly killing off any positive reputation, professional and otherwise, that you had with me and probably others as well. Quit the BS and post what you think happened and support it scientifically, or at least try to. I don't care if you disagree with my conclusions, I'm not too sure that I agree with them, but they are what they are given what is known. But if you can't disagree in a civil manner then why are you here?
Looks like you clear coated it. What did you use specifically and how did it hold up?Here's an intake I cleaned up......by beadblasting.....
It's a single barrel intake that I modified back in the 80's.
Looks good, what improvements did you notice, how can you compare it to a 2 barrel carb. which I am assuming you were running?
If you do a little searching on-line you will see quite a bit of info about going the Muratic way and the consensus seems to be that it leaves a residue behind that cannot easily ( or at all ) be neutralized.
Not sure what your thoughts are going on the gas versus diesel, I have soaked my parts in diesal ( thats what I use in my parts washer ) and I love the stuff.
Let it sit for a few days and the crap just seems to fall off whereas gasoline although quicker will evaporate in the blink of an eye.
I pulled my intake out tonight and very little to no traces of rust, clean black metal at this point, I rinsed with a high pressure hose and it went straight into my parts washer. I have read to neutralize with baking soda.
I guess I need to consider that and will possibly do so over the weekend.
I made this ( OK my wife made it
) thinking you and some others might find interesting. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8cZsd9LSqI&feature=youtu.be"]YouTube[/ame]
cjh
Well-Known Member
The ' clear coat ' is an anti-rust agent called Rustilo made by Castrol......I had just sprayed it on, so it was wet at the time. It does 'set', takes about an hour or so. It goes a brown colour.
Takes a hot wash to get it off however.
I was running a 2 barrel Carter, then I put a Holley 350 #7448 on it.
I had #61 jets, #95 power valve, and modified the jets in the Metering Block after removing the little brass plugs, and opened up the Progression Ports in the Throttle Block......so it had no dead spots or hesitation.
The engine wasn't stock....0.060" over, 0.140" off the P&P head, mild cam, Genie headers, regraphed dizzy, Bosch GT40 coil, would rev to 5,500 rpm......only ever took to 5,000 rpm in top gear (4sp)....that was 120 mph.
the_engineers
Active Member
I've done entire axle housings using this method. http://www.rickswoodshopcreations.com/miscellaneous/rust_removal.htm
Works fine, albeit a little slower than muriatic or diesel. Removes grease, paint and rust. No toxic byproducts. I assume you all have a battery charger...
Works fine, albeit a little slower than muriatic or diesel. Removes grease, paint and rust. No toxic byproducts. I assume you all have a battery charger...
/6 Matt
30 Degrees Crooked
...well there went my hopes of Dan not staying in lurk mode...
Im going to give this method a shot, thanks for the link. Seems to spell out the process and offers some additional info as well.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a great question for MythBusters. Send them a link, you might get a free T-shirt or something if they use it.
Hello engineers, you say you have done entire axle housings, very greasy work.....did you pre-clean and if so how and to what degree.
I am not in the least satisfied with the vinegar method, I had to re-soak the parts because I decided I knew more than anyone else and did not neutralize the parts after removal with baking soda. Parts flashed rust again bad and only got worse from there.
Ok re-soaked parts, neutralized and no more excessive flash rusting but for me the parts are not as clean as I wanted them, I dont want the paint left behind.
I realized that from the beginning vinegar prob. would not remove the paint based on others comments and yet I am still dissapointed.
Still battling bits of grease/oil. In these areas ( yes they are still there even after a thorough de0greasing ) the vinegar did nothing.
Not going to bother with the molasses as I have read it will work very similar to vinegar aka no paint removal and wont touch grease.
I may do that.
Here is another link which I am finding useful http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/nsaeta/electrolysis.html#clean
the_engineers
Active Member
No pre-cleaning or prep, other than disassembling the pieces as far as you can. For an intake, I'd give it at least a day in the soak, charger on the whole time. Do this outside! Dont smoke near it. You will have to brush or scrub afterwards. The process separates the attached rust first, so you end up with a cocoon around the part. Your sacrificial pieces can be wiped off, but you'll be shocked how eroded they are. Don't use stainless as your sacrificial pieces (makes poisonous gas). Good luck
why don't you just sandblast the intake? That would literally take like 20 minutes to do & it'll be ready for paint.
Heavily corroded inside the runners, I want to make sure the areas I cannot see are as well as I can get them.
Thanks, Have you done an engine block or heads? The reason I ask is I have recently read that this method may not get into water channels ( clean as well as I think it should ) ect ect.
Makes no sense to me that it wouldnt do what it supposed to do but thats what I am reading.
I have an engine block that Id like to clean up while I am at it.
Lets begin with the FACT vinegar is commercially produced in a "generator" heated retort type vessel made of cast iron. Vinegar is a nasty product in that it is an acid, and not particularly friendly to iron. Vinegar generators have a life expectancy of about 6 months, and all plumbing to and from them is PVC, and holding tanks are usually poly. Vinegar will also destroy copper, although it lasts longer.
Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal. Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.
WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react. DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film. Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier. You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.
On the subject of carbon. Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can. Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom. Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature. Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation.
Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops. They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs. NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else. EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on. That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.
Are there effective room temperature carbon removers? Yes. Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner.
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function. THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.
Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond. This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill. We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough. Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal. Then it was baked into place.
Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily. There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent. Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers. These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you. If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by. Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient. If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.
Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal? Liquid Nitrogen. It breaks the bond fast. It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it. It's damn fast though.
Vinegar will dissolve rust, BUT, vinegar does NOT stop attacking iron molecules when it reaches good metal. Vinegar is a poor rust remover given that it damages iron.
WHY does freshly derusted iron flash rust so fast, and what can be done to stop that?
Well gee, you just exposed pure iron containing molecules to oxygen and provided the catalyst that makes rust react. DOH!
You want to stop rust from happening, remove the catalyst instantly by heating the casting or iron object to 300° in a water free atmosphere, and that ain't your gas grill that produces water from the burning propane.
Motor oil and transmission fluid don't cut it either because both are formulated to absorb water.
WD 40 ain't getting the job done either, it's mostly Kerosene and designed to DISPLACE water, not stop water.
Got a lot of money to waste, look at Boeshield or Fluid film. Both are mixes of lanolin and mineral oil with a carrier. You can make it for less than 1/4 of what you can buy it from either manufacturer.
On the subject of carbon. Carbon is an element, it cannot be broken down in the manner rust can. Rust is 2 elements, and can be broken apart by removing either the iron atom or the oxygen atom. Both Iron and oxygen are elements and cannot be broken down although both can be combined with many other elements fairly easily at room temperature. Carbon does not like to combine unless a lot of temperature is added to the equation.
Yes, there used to be commercial hot tanks used in engine shops. They were steel tanks with a high capacity burner and most had agitators, and they were usually ticking time bombs. NO, they have not been outlawed by EPA or anyone else. EPA and the Possum Police in every State have placed books of rules on the operation of these tanks with cradle to grave registration of the chemistry the tank operates on. That costs far more money than the tank can generate in any production situation today when added to the cost of fuel and INSURANCE.
Are there effective room temperature carbon removers? Yes. Look at a can of EZ Off or any oven cleaner.
These work not by dissolving carbon, but rather than breaking down the material adhesing the carbon to the metal, and require time and a friendly environment to function. THEY CAN ALSO CAUSE SERIOUS SKIN BURNS AND BLIND YOU IF YOU GET SOME IN YOUR EYE.
Since carbon cannot atomically combine with iron below the melt point of the iron, we know the carbon is stuck to the engine by a adhesive bond. This is different from "Mill scale" on new steel from a mill. We also know most castings are wonderful adhesion surfaces because they are rough. Removing carbon from an engine increases in difficulty tremendously because the carbon has been impinged onto the surface at high temperature, and grabbed a foothold on both the roughness and porosity of the metal. Then it was baked into place.
Since carbon has no propensity to go into solution with anything else at room temperature, it ain't coming away from iron easily. There seems to be a theory in the cooking industry that carbon comes off easily with a cleaning agent. Most of the cleaning agents offered for sale at high price are strictly dissolvers of the grease holding the carbon adhesed to the iron, employing the same group of ingredients found in paint strippers. These are some nasty products that will eat your skin and blind you. If you insist on using them, have plenty of BEER standing by. Beer is the best neutralizer that will stop the burning,actually the consumption of fat cells in your skin by the corrosive ingredient. If you don't need the beer for first aid, you can always drink it as you admire your work.
Want an easy & fast wat to remove carbon and carbon contained in fully plasticized grease from metal? Liquid Nitrogen. It breaks the bond fast. It will also cost you a fortune for the Nitrogen and equipment to handle it. It's damn fast though.
Yes, I agree, I am asking around on different forums for some answers and the person whom responded here states ......................I've only been running multple conversion and removal processes for iron oxides for 30± years.
Still trying to come up with an answer, I am considering that the reason the un-machined surfaces were not affected was possibly because of the ( as mntioned ) coat of paint that still remained on outside of cylinder head.
I am guessing at this point the paint acted as some sort of a barrier. Just a guess on my part, looking for confirmation.
I am not certain that the un-affected areas I tested were indeed covered with paint. I need to go back out there and look over the cylinder head and look for the scrape marks I made to see if I was attempting to scrape thru a painted surface.
I am guessing at this point the paint acted as some sort of a barrier. Just a guess on my part, looking for confirmation.
I am not certain that the un-affected areas I tested were indeed covered with paint. I need to go back out there and look over the cylinder head and look for the scrape marks I made to see if I was attempting to scrape thru a painted surface.
the_engineers
Active Member
I did an 8 3/4 housing. Ran a piece of rebar (cathode) through the axle tubes. Held it in suspension with a couple of PVC bushings.
Knowing the minimal cost of trying, I'd say go for it and post pics.
I am hoping to be able to locate a re-search paper describing the above that was printed in 1924. With any luck I can provide a copy of the original findings. Here though is a brief synopsis of that paper provided to me by again another member of a different forum.
Its description thus far describes ( the symptoms ) what I have come across to the tee.
It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculiar to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeleton around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraded. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.
Its description thus far describes ( the symptoms ) what I have come across to the tee.
It is called Graphitic Softening, it is peculiar to high carbon cast irons. The acid ate the iron crystals, leaving the graphite skeleton around them, which preserves the overall shape, but is soft and easily damaged/abraded. The iron is still there, but it has been converted into colloidal iron (hyper fine particles). When you let it dry out, they support the graphite, so it seems hard again however, the metal has in fact been damaged, it is now very brittle and weak.
I was able to find that paper fairly easily and here is a link to that in case anyone is interested. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ie50174a010
Given the condition I exposed the head too Id say this is a plausible answer to the issue I had, Id guess it would take alot more time and money to reach a definitive/ unarguable answer which Im not in a position to support.
This was my final attempt at explaining what happened with this cylinder head, I need to move onto my next steps with my new head and all this has taken too much time already.
I will add that I did re-soak parts in that original batch of vinegar and although I did not let anything sit for the week duration I could see that because of time and use the vinegar had lost much of its bite, not nearly as aggressive as it was straight out of the bottle.
Given the condition I exposed the head too Id say this is a plausible answer to the issue I had, Id guess it would take alot more time and money to reach a definitive/ unarguable answer which Im not in a position to support.
This was my final attempt at explaining what happened with this cylinder head, I need to move onto my next steps with my new head and all this has taken too much time already.
I will add that I did re-soak parts in that original batch of vinegar and although I did not let anything sit for the week duration I could see that because of time and use the vinegar had lost much of its bite, not nearly as aggressive as it was straight out of the bottle.
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