compression on a 318

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str12-340

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So since 318s were made with compression ranging from 9.2:1 to 8.2:1 where is that extra compression coming from? since the cranks and rods didn't change is it in the pistons? If you are rebuilding can you increase compression just by using pistons designed for a 68-9 318? or is it designed in the combustion chamber?
 
They never had 9.2. The Magnum, but not the LA.
 
So since 318s were made with compression ranging from 9.2:1 to 8.2:1 where is that extra compression coming from? since the cranks and rods didn't change is it in the pistons? If you are rebuilding can you increase compression just by using pistons designed for a 68-9 318? or is it designed in the combustion chamber?


Get a set of 10.5 compression pistons for a 318, then put some 340/360 heads on it and you will end up at 9.2 compression....
 
So since 318s were made with compression ranging from 9.2:1 to 8.2:1 where is that extra compression coming from? since the cranks and rods didn't change is it in the pistons? If you are rebuilding can you increase compression just by using pistons designed for a 68-9 318? or is it designed in the combustion chamber?


The factory compression ratings were not what the engines actually had, they were lower than advertised because they ran the block deck and head decks fat .....
 
For starters 68-69 318 pistons are long gone as NOS. The rockauto replacements the PN fit a wide range of years. Because of this, they have shitty compression height numbers, so that's not the answer. Average stock 318 Pistons typically are .080" - .100" in the hole at TDC allowing then to run all day long on dinosaur piss. A set of KB167s will put it at or very close to zero deck height. With a 65cc head, and .040" headgasket you should be right around 9.5-1 . Id recommend moly rings for a street engine. They seat nicely an have good longevity. If making a nice street engine and not an all out racer, dont fall for the 2.02 - 1.60 valve setup on the teener. You want to try to keep port velocity up. With the 318 smallish bore size and stroke that it is, oversized ports and runners will kill that. Look for a set of 302 castings you can clean up for good flow, maybe open up the valve sizes a bit, but not to 2.02 - 1.60. A Weiand stealth #8022 has 318 sized runners and is a copy of the old eddy LD318. Port match everything. A stock 318 and 340 fuel pump are the same PN and use 5/16 fuel lines. An eddy 600 is ideal for this. Look into the 68 340 camshaft specs. The Melling SPD-22 is a 68 340 cam. If rebuilding this engine to stock bearing clearance specs and most of its life is spent 3500 rpm and under with occasional 6,000 rpm speeds a stock volume oil pump is more than adequate. A high vol pump will kill HP. Do the oiling mod tricks found on another fabo thread and a high vol pump isnt really needed. Look into a Kevco Claimer oil pan. It's a center sump stock pan, but has baffling and a crank scraper. An alternate if your good at fabrication and welding is to pick up the Summit racing stock oil pan, and copy the baffling that's in the Kevco pan. This setup along with a really good ignition system should easily get you to about 300-325hp give or take and have a nice smooth idle. I would also recommend ditching the cast rods on your rebuild. Eagle has a nice set of 5140 forged I beam rods that come with bushed little ends and ARP waveloc bolts for about $300 for a set of 8. These are good up to 500 hp and 6,000 rpm. Not worth reconditioning the stockers. You will spend more money, and not be as strong. Find a set of 68-71 340 hi po exhaust manifolds. Port match these too, and get a 90° oil filter adaptor off any 318 M body to run them.

I realize there are other opinions on making a hot teener, many different ways to skin this cat. This way is mine1

Hope this helps
Matt
 
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To answer the original question....the higher compression 9.2 as advertised in 69 318 was mostly the result of piston height. My original Barracuda pistons were .030 down in the hole.
 
Agree with treblig , it's is in the compression height of the piston and in the c.c.'s of the combustion chamber . speed pro makes a forged piston that is a flat top design which is a little help . IMO , milling the head or block to gain c.r. causes more issues than it resolves . Of course , custom pistons are an option . You cold order pistons for a 340 in 3.910" bore , spendy but doable .
 
I never saw 340 pistons in a 318 bore size. What's the compression height on those? Or KB167s which are -5CC with the valve reliefs and an almost zero deck height piston. Typically you would have to shave the decks a couple thousandths on a rebuild to make em flat and clean anyways. Especially if it's a core block your using and the gasket surface is rough.
 
heads CC and deck height mostly
When 318willrun said this, the deck height of the block is high and often doesn’t come in on its actual measurements as what the books say they are.

Id like to add that the piston height from the wrist line on up will vary a lot. Between the three listed here and the head gasket thickness is how you come to the mathematics of the compression ratio.

As mentioned above, piston replacement is how you would start. There are 2 styles from Keith Black, 1 flat top, 1 with a small dome. Once you have the machine work done to the block and heads to be dead flat for a perfect mating, you will know or adjust for where the piston sits in the block. Now you can figure out what thickness of a head gasket you can use for the desired ratio.
I suggest keeping an iron header engine below 10-1 to ru n pump gas without issues. 9.5-1 is great.
 
first - advertised cr from Chrysler on a 318 is:
1968-9 9.2
1970 8.8
1971-3 8.6

It sounds like KB167s would do what I hoped to accomplish. I'm not going drag racing with this car but it would be nice to get compression up to 9.2 to 9.5 as long as I'm replacing pistons anyway. Thanks for all the info.
 
You
first - advertised cr from Chrysler on a 318 is:
1968-9 9.2
1970 8.8
1971-3 8.6

It sounds like KB167s would do what I hoped to accomplish. I'm not going drag racing with this car but it would be nice to get compression up to 9.2 to 9.5 as long as I'm replacing pistons anyway. Thanks for all the info.
You could also use those valves that have a different head that decreases the cc in your heads! Non-dished valve head.
 
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It sounds like KB167s would do what I hoped to accomplish. I'm not going drag racing with this car but it would be nice to get compression up to 9.2 to 9.5 as long as I'm replacing pistons anyway. Thanks for all the info.


Be careful what you wish for.
The static compression ratio is nothing more than a tool, to achieve a target cylinder pressure with the intake closing angle of the cam. Those two work together, and if you arbitrarily increase one without the other, you can very quickly run into detonation problems.

Wiki says you are at 381ft elevation
Wallace says with the stock cam, 9.5Scr will get you to 172.5 psi cranking cylinder pressure. I guarantee you that with the stock heads, you will have detonation problems.
Working the Wallace backwards, at 9.5Scr she wants a cam with an Ica of about 10* later. With a stock cam, you are already pushing the detonation wall with an Scr of 9.0.
The point is this; You gotta co-ordinate the pressure with the Ica, and the tool for that is the Scr. So as you say you are not going drag-racing, You gotta be real careful. It's the pressure that makes the car fun to drive/ forget about a particular Scr. Just shoot for a pressure you know that you can buy gas for.
If you target too high a pressure, and you go down in elevation, detonation comes earlier.
If you target too low a pressure, and you go to a higher elevation, then you will feel the loss of power.
If your car is forced to operate at multiple wildly varying elevations, IMO, it is best to get a bigger engine. For example ; each 1000 ft is worth about 5 psi, so a difference of 4000 ft is worth about 20 psi. And that is a huge powerloss
 
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Actually the later roller cam 302 headed 318 had 9:1 compression. Right before the magnum block around 1986-1991
 
first - advertised cr from Chrysler on a 318 is:
1968-9 9.2
1970 8.8
1971-3 8.6

It sounds like KB167s would do what I hoped to accomplish. I'm not going drag racing with this car but it would be nice to get compression up to 9.2 to 9.5 as long as I'm replacing pistons anyway. Thanks for all the info.
Use roller cam pistons they are taller than the rest and will get you into the 9:1 range
 
Actually the later roller cam 302 headed 318 had 9:1 compression. Right before the magnum block around 1986-1991
When I replaced my original 69 318 heads with 302s I made sure to check the CCs on both sets of heads because I didn't want to lose any compression. As it turns out they were both the exact same CCs ( 59 CCs If I remember correctly).
 
I never saw 340 pistons in a 318 bore size. What's the compression height on those? Or KB167s which are -5CC with the valve reliefs and an almost zero deck height piston. Typically you would have to shave the decks a couple thousandths on a rebuild to make em flat and clean anyways. Especially if it's a core block your using and the gasket surface is rough.
you are correct , there are no 318 pistons in 340 compression height but to have them made is a no brainer .
 
It seems to me
that if you get the Q into the ballpark with off-the-shelf-pistons and closed chamber heads, the rest you can do by manipulating the ICA. I'd rather spend my money on heads than a few thou of compression distance.
The target for Q is about .028 to .050. With .028 gaskets, the acceptable deck clearance thus, is zero to .022 in the holes. The tight-Q will allow the running of about 5 psi higher than not having any Q at all..... which allows one of; a little shorter Ica, or the running of one grade lower fuel,or operating at ~1000ft lower if the need arises, while staying out of detonation, or even just running a hotter minimum coolant temperature.
Quench, actually, in this case a misnomer for Squish, is a very useful thing to have, simply because it allows a great deal of flexibility to maximize performance on a small engine. Combined with alloy heads, a great deal of pressure can be run.
Pressure is NOT Static compression ratio. Pressure is what Scr and Ica combine to make. Pressure is the thing to keep your eye on. At WOT, excessive pressure leads to heat,which leads to detonation, which leads to broken parts and destroyed engines.
But when NOT at WOT, the high pressure makes for a stout bottom end, and leads to the potential of making great fuel economy. A high pressure engine makes for fun Part Throttle operation.
If it weren't so, then there would have never been developed a small displacement VVT engine. The 2.5 DI-VVT in my alloy 2014 Orlando pumps 220 psi, and is advertised to make 167hp at 6700IIRC. That's a lot of pressure and a lot of power in a pretty small package. And at 3600 pounds it never feels under-powered.The VVT doesn't kick in until 4500, and I rarely feel the need to go that high. When I do, it is usually just for kicks,lol.
If I had to build a 318, that is what I would do; namely get the Q into line and pump up the pressure, even if it meant sacrificing power at 5500, where I never go; cuz with 3.23s, 5500 is; 119 mph in direct, 82 in Second, and 49 in First; with an 85" roll-out. So since in Manitoba where I live, the speed limit is typically 100kph/62mph, 5500 means nothing to me.
From empiracle data posted here on FABO, and by personal experimentation, I have found the following to be true;
1) Pressure with closed chamber alloy heads, can approach;
190psi with 91Gas; 185 with 89 gas; 180 with 87 gas. A tight Q can easily push this 5 psi higher to as much as 10 psi higher. Some guys here claim 200psi with full timing.
2) With open chamber IRON heads you gotta drop at least 25 psi. And tightening up the Q is good for 5 more psi, but I won't say 10psi. @yellow rose might tho, cuz he is sure that he can run 170/175 with iron, but is a little tight-lipped about it..... and who can blame him, that is quite an edge on most of us..
So, if you have to run open chamber iron heads and want to run 87 gas, you better stick to not more than 155psi until YR (or somebody in-the-know) spills the beans.
But, I will tell you a secret. You can build a 165psi closed chamber iron headed beast, and run 87 in it for like maybe 90% of the time. But at WOT, and full timing, she better have 91 or better in the carb. I'll leave you to figure out how to make that possible. But, IMO, that would be the best of all worlds. I'm leaning towards a dual inlet spreadbore carb, and a dash-mounted dial-back timing-retard ignition box .......lol.
It's just too bad nobody makes a 5-bbl carb. Or a 3bbl would be OK too. Or a cheap 6-pack. Or plain old meth injection.....
 
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