Crane Roller Lifters OH NO!

[Mopar Sam]

Thanks for everyone's input, one reason for trying to make a little power in a daily driver is if you only have one car.

He has 3.91 gears and a turbo action converter and reverse manual vb, manual steering and manual discs.

This was our only family car for several years back when the 3 boys were all in car seats. Other than the edelbrock heads, roller cam and a little higher compression, it is just like my wife and I drove it everywhere. I drove an hour and 20 minutes each way to work one summer 6 days a week.
I had a mild purple shaft 284 484 cam though. the @ 050 duration on it is about the same as Brian's roller.
71 4 door valiant by the way

 

[PRH]

The broken link bar rivet could be a total fluke.
Maybe inspection of the others will shed some light on it.

The thing about the old MP cams is, they were designed to provide a fairly high level of reliability, with modest opening and closing rates, so they could be run with factory rocker gear.
They also had pretty quiet operation...... another tell tale that things are operating in a fairly smooth manner.

I’m sure you’ll get it sorted out.

No idea on how many miles those solid rollers were in service?

 

[512Stroker]

What Rocket said, hyd roller cam with solid roller lifters so .003 lash cold.

I have heard of the short lash used on solid over hydraulic application, but I have yet to see an explanation as to why?

 

[Mopar Sam]

The broken link bar rivet could be a total fluke.
Maybe inspection of the others will shed some light on it.

The thing about the old MP cams is, they were designed to provide a fairly high level of reliability, with modest opening and closing rates, so they could be run with factory rocker gear.
They also had pretty quiet operation...... another tell tale that things are operating in a fairly smooth manner.

I’m sure you’ll get it sorted out.


No idea on how many miles those solid rollers were in service?

I am not sure on mileage, I would guess about 10-15,000.
I think it turns about 3200 rpm on the highway.
It gets better mileage than my 318 durango did.

 

[Mopar Sam]

I have heard of the short lash used on solid over hydraulic application, but I have yet to see an explanation as to why?

I may be off base but my thinking is: No ramps on the hyd roller, it was designed for 0 lash. You need a little lash for the valves not to hang open if the temp drops a lot like a midwest early spring or late fall. We tried .001 and .002, but temperature swings made it run rough until it warmed up. .003 worked well .

 

[yellow rose]

I have heard of the short lash used on solid over hydraulic application, but I have yet to see an explanation as to why?

Because the ramp is designed for a hydraulic lifter so you need to give a little lash to get the engine up and running cold. I’ve set them as tight as .002 cold and they will start, but if you don’t let it build some heat the valves will grow before the heads and the lash closes up and it will hold the valve open.

Once the temp gets up a bit and things stabilize the lash opens back up a bit.

 

[yellow rose]

I may be off base but my thinking is: No ramps on the hyd roller, it was designed for 0 lash. You need a little lash for the valves not to hang open if the temp drops a lot like a midwest early spring or late fall. We tried .001 and .002, but temperature swings made it run rough until it warmed up. .003 worked well .

DAMN. TREE’D AGAIN LOL

 

[Mopar Sam]

Cam specs from Oregon's site:
,
duration @ .006 300/306
duration @ .050 242/248
Lobe lift .358/.373
lift with 1.5 rockers .537/.560 about .009 less with the lash.
110 lsa.
grind # 1427
As you can see not a terribly fast acting cam.

 

[PRH]

In my mind there is a definite distinction made between a fun summer “toy” car, and DD.

I would have no qualms about using something like what you guys were running in a hot street summer fun car........ but I just wouldn’t go there with something that was my sole means of transportation.

I really am not in love with HFT cams, but I think they make sense for a DD.
No fast rate stuff though.

I also like the idea of using the Hyd roller block though........ with a mild hyd roller along with the factory style lifters and spider.

For a SFT, I’d use some really slow old school lobes that didn’t have much lift so it would work okay with mild springs.

 

[Mopar Sam]

In my mind there is a definite distinction made between a fun summer “toy” car, and DD.

I would have no qualms about using something like what you guys were running in a hot street summer fun car........ but I just wouldn’t go there with something that was my sole means of transportation.

I really am not in love with HFT cams, but I think they make sense for a DD.
No fast rate stuff though.

I also like the idea of using the Hyd roller block though........ with a mild hyd roller along with the factory style lifters and spider.

For a SFT, I’d use some really slow old school lobes that didn’t have much lift so it would work okay with mild springs.

I get what you are saying, but his cam is mild for a roller, and the springs are not killer by any means. I really thought it would last, but this proved me wrong...

For me, I have no use for hyd flat cams. Just my personal opinion, I think the lifter quality is questionable , and honestly a failed hyd lifter is why he went solid roller in the first place. ( A few others were getting noisy too. )

He got a little under 3 years out of the comp hyd flat lifters, so not much better lifespan.

I guess, maybe, if a guy wants to enjoy driving all year long this is the price you pay, instead of say a car payment.
This will only cost him parts and time, as he and I will do all work.

I know myself, I cannot stand to drive to work in a newer vehicle.

 

[PRH]

For me, the DD is just another “appliance”....... and I’d prefer to not have to work on it at all.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Mopar Sam]

For me, the DD is just another “appliance”....... and I’d prefer to not have to work on it at all.

Different strokes for different folks.

I hate working on appliances too. I have seen a lot of bone stock daily driver motors break. Anything mechanical can break even a toaster.

At least the valiant is easy to work on. You have to DRIVE it though, you ain't gonna be able to text!

Just an opinion from a guy who has been daily driving Mopars since he was a kid.

 

[badvaliant]

Here are some pics. As those of you with vision will see, the two lobes on cylinder 4 are probably not going to buff out. Also, there is a crack on the intake lifter where it should be attached to the link bar, and the rivet holding it together is gone. Therefore the lifters were able to move sideways. Now it's just a matter of finding out what problem caused the other problems.

 

[yellow rose]

Uhhhhh, wait a second. From the pictures it looks like that cam is ground on a cast core. I very rarely run a sold roller on a cast core.

I’m not so sure that’s a lifter failure. It’s possible the cam started to fail and the lifter failure is a by product of that.

Even if it’s a steel core, I’m not so sure the cam didn’t fail first, for whatever reason.

Usually (I say usually because nothing is 100%) when a lifter fails, you see some heat in the lobe and on the wheel.

Also, any chance you can post a picture of the lifters not in the block?

TIA
YR

 

[Mopar Sam]

Uhhhhh, wait a second. From the pictures it looks like that cam is ground on a cast core. I very rarely run a sold roller on a cast core.

I’m not so sure that’s a lifter failure. It’s possible the cam started to fail and the lifter failure is a by product of that.

Even if it’s a steel core, I’m not so sure the cam didn’t fail first, for whatever reason.

Usually (I say usually because nothing is 100%) when a lifter fails, you see some heat in the lobe and on the wheel.

Also, any chance you can post a picture of the lifters not in the block?

TIA
YR

Regrind of a stock hyd roller cam. Cam still in block, but from what I can see, all of the other lobes are in great shape.

I can't tell for sure until the block is out and the head off but Brian and I both did a wiggle test with an old hyd lifter, and the #4 lifter bore "seems" looser than the others. It could be my imagination or the way we have to lean over the fenders, but it feels like there is more clearance in the bank to bank direction than the fore and aft. Kind of like an hour glassed valve guide.

Once the motor is out I will really measure it. The IN lifter measures .9032 All of the wheels spin like new. Will know more tomorrow.

 

[PRH]

I’m not there looking at the parts first hand, so this is an observation made from looking at pics on a small screen.

The times I’ve seen broken link bars, the lifter usually ends up turned 90* to the cam, and running like that at least for some period of time.
When that happens....... the lobe is trashed all the way around, even on the base circle.
On those two lobes the base circle doesn’t appear to be totally trashed.

So, the one with the link bar still attached can’t rotate like that....... and the matching lobe looks like it might even be worse than the other one.

I’ve never seen one fail quite that way before.

I’m actually thinking along the lines of YR on this one.
Lobes started failing first, then after there’s a healthy groove on the nose of the lobe, the lifters starts tracking in that ever worsening trough, which sets of some sort of twisting or oscillating motion, which starts working on the link bars and rivets.

With the limited amount of info I have to go on....... I think the cam went first, or started to go first.

 

[fishmens67]

If you look close enough all the lobes are starting to go away

 

[Mopar Sam]

I’m not there looking at the parts first hand, so this is an observation made from looking at pics on a small screen.

The times I’ve seen broken link bars, the lifter usually ends up turned 90* to the cam, and running like that at least for some period of time.
When that happens....... the lobe is trashed all the way around, even on the base circle.
On those two lobes the base circle doesn’t appear to be totally trashed


So, the one with the link bar still attached can’t rotate like that....... and the matching lobe looks like it might even be worse than the other one.

I’ve never seen one fail quite that way before.

I’m actually thinking along the lines of YR on this one.
Lobes started failing first, then after there’s a healthy groove on the nose of the lobe, the lifters starts tracking in that ever worsening trough, which sets of some sort of twisting or oscillating motion, which starts working on the link bars and rivets.

With the limited amount of info I have to go on....... I think the cam went first, or started to go first.

You two may be right, I will have Brian post pics of the 2 lifter wheels. The one that turned sideways is ground tapered across the wheel, while the one with the link bar still attached is more rounded across the wheel.

I hope to pull the motor tomorrow, and we can put up pics of the cam.

 

[Mopar Sam]

If you look close enough all the lobes are starting to go away

Actually, the camera makes it look that way, but it rubs right off. You cannot feel it with your finger. I have seen rollers do that and that was my first thought too.

 

[fishmens67]

I'm going to make an appointment with my eye doctor. lol

 

[Mopar Sam]

I'm going to make an appointment with my eye doctor. lol

When I saw that picture I went out to look at it again!

 

[PRH]

The other thing is....... if that one lifter bore was tapered before the rollers were installed....... that could be the whole cause of it.
Allowing some movement of the lifter, in a way that wouldn’t normally be able to happen.

 

[badvaliant]

Here are some better pics of the lifters for yellow rose. Some tapering going on.

 

[Mopar Sam]

The other thing is....... if that one lifter bore was tapered before the rollers were installed....... that could be the whole cause of it.
Allowing some movement of the lifter, in a way that wouldn’t normally be able to happen.

That is one thing I am wondering, and plan on checking out. And then, if it is tapered I will wonder if that is what caused the problem, or if the fact that the lifter spun and was still going up and down caused the bore to taper...?

Brian said he felt it happen while driving. He did call me about it and I asked how the oil pressure was. Long story short, I told him to drive it home.

 

[Mopar Sam]

Cam or lifter bore????? Or could there have been a defect in the lifter body???

Where's Columbo when you need him? What killed the Cam?