Engine oil

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grassy

grassy

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Did a search and came up blank..I would have though this had been beaten to death.

I just finished a resto mag that stated that our new engine oil is very bad for our classic cars because there isn't enough lube for the tappets.

The suggest a good quality , non synthetic, with a 1/3 of a can of Chevy oil additive.

Does anyone have any opinions..assume 5 to 8K Kilometers a year.

Thanks
Ian.
 
oil, is oil, is oil. dosn't matter even if its the $1.29/ quart wallmart brand.
the only oil thats better then oil is the man made stuff. change the oil
and filter at the recomended milage/time even if it dosn't look dirty and
your engine will live a long happy life. but this is all just my opinion.
 
The schaeffer bottle says right on the back='For flat tappet cam engines'
Straight answer, no doubt.
They also make a gazillion other products/types of lubricants.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
And this helps him how?
Click to expand...
you mentioned zinc.. get off your frickin hi-rise gold plated crapper already.

running 20/50 on a .002 clearanced bearing helps the OP how?

so i guess by your theory there should be MILLIONS of cams right now failing left right and center becouse the zinc content is less the 1000ppm?
puh-lease. hi load valvesprings and/or a lack of oil/oil control kills camshafts.
 
you're a knob...

I recommended him a brand of oil thats intended for his/'our' older flat tappet engines.

I only told him what 'I' run for weight, not what TO run himself.
 
i know you recomended that he run 20~50 w/ a ton of zinc in it.
i mearly asked why 20~50? unless you run loose clearances.
and why does it need an overdose of ZINC? what did these cams
do from the late 70's to the HI-ZINC fad of the late 90's? i need
to get educated here if i'm wrong.
 
If you are using more spring pressure then stock, and it is a flat tappet cam, You are asking for trouble with todays Cat. safe oils.

this is a well know problem.

If it hasn't happen to you, thats grate. i will not take that chance.
 
grassy said:
Did a search and came up blank..I would have though this had been beaten to death.

I just finished a resto mag that stated that our new engine oil is very bad for our classic cars because there isn't enough lube for the tappets.

The suggest a good quality , non synthetic, with a 1/3 of a can of Chevy oil additive.

Does anyone have any opinions..assume 5 to 8K Kilometers a year.

Thanks
Ian.
Click to expand...

Ian,
It's dependant on the camshaft you used. There is a ton of misinformation, and technology goes fast when the feds regulate stuff. If your build runs a camshaft that is less than around 230°@.050 (which covers most stuff up to around the 280/480 cams), or a cam design that has been around for years, you dont really need to worry. The modern oils have enough additives to let those live. As cams get bigger and profiles get more modern they require heavier valve springs. The heavier the valve springs, the more important the oil becomes. What is the engine you're worried about?
 
I didn't mean to start a fight.

What are you running Cudafever ?

The article...auto restoration - summer 09...I think I bought this in December :) The article was called "death by oil".



ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) was first added to control bearing corrosion..then increased for camshafts. At .14 %T, it actually increasers wear.

Both zinc and phosphate are key to preventing wear. And wild&crazy is right, kill catalytic converters. The older engines should have combo of both of the above at a ratio of .12 to .14%. With SM oil, you can reduce these numbers to .06 to .08%.

. do not use sm type oil if you drive a few thousand of miles each summer.

. avoid oils that say energy conserving

. you can use sm oil if you augment 1/2 ounce of gm EOS for each quart..do not asdd more..more is not better with EOS.

. you can use the diesel ci-4 but not cj-4

. do not use a synthetic if it hasn't been used since day one in an engine

do not switch to a detergent containing oil if a non detergent has been used

buddy uses 15w40


I guess my first question is what the heck is SM ?

I wonder if Schaeffer has that % ratio..I wonder if this is sold in Canada.

For my MG and Vaux, I didn't worry but I used to throgh a can of castrol for every oil change.

I have a chance to do it right with the new engine.

Are there more suggestions out there ?

Thanks
Ian.
 
A-BOMB360 said:
oil, is oil, is oil. dosn't matter even if its the $1.29/ quart wallmart brand.
the only oil thats better then oil is the man made stuff. change the oil
and filter at the recomended milage/time even if it dosn't look dirty and
your engine will live a long happy life. but this is all just my opinion.
Click to expand...
I don't know about. I used some cheap(store brand) oil once before in a Geo Metro I had and it would not hold oil pressure for nothing.
 
Moper,

I have a 360 with a comp cam 20-223-3 for Hydraulic Flat Tappet - Advertised Duration 268 - 280 - Lift .477 - .480 - Mopar - Small Block.

I understand in theory what this means but I have absolutely no idea in practice. I have an essentially 360 crate engine. I have a 650cfm carb. I was under the impression that this cam is just a mild one that will make the engine sound a bit cooler.

Should I use that GM additive that I talk about in my previous post ?

Ian.
 
Rotella diesel oil has a lot of zinc in it. That is what I use in my 340 with a .508 cam. I get it from the shop here at work. 15W40 by the gallon.
 
ok first of all,, no one is ever going to agree,,,

2nd shell rotella T, 15/40 is a diesel truck oil,,,and has also been cut back on zinc,,, i run a diesel and follow all that crap too,,,because of the new emissions as of 2007 and ULTRA LOW SULFUR FUELS,,, zinc in all diesle oil has been cut back as well,,,

ALL standard motor oils have had the zinc and other friction modifiers cut back,,,factory cars now use roller cams and need less friction protection,,

when breaking in a fresh built motor,,with a flat tappet cam,,,weather its a high lift or stock,,you should be concerned about OIL,,,, being safe is beter then being sorry,,,
hughes engines has an additive fro break in,,,,you can buy an additive fropm your local speed shop,or jegs, or summit,,made by comp cams,,,i dontt think the GM additive is stilll available,,and use a good brand of oil along with the addititve,,,brad penn claims to have enough zinc in there GREEN oil,,,and valvoline VR-1 is said to have enough zinc,,,some chain auto stores carry brad penn and valvoline VR-1,,,on the shelf,,,jegs,summit all have it also ,,but you pay shipping,,, i use valvoline VR-1 i order it from a local mom and pop auto parts store,,cost less then summit,,

the mopar race manual,,says,,break in the motor on the grade/weight of oil you are going to run,,,they claim multi grades are not good for a performance motor,,,i run straight sae 30 valvoline VR-1 solid lift flat tappet cam,with no problems,,,,

i used VR-1 10/30 in my hemi street rod and broke in a set of new lifters using comp cams additive,,

depending on how big your oil pan is,,is to how much additive you will neeed
 
I'm running Valvoline 20w-50 VR-1 racing oil in my 340. I sent a sample off for analysis today and will post the results when I get them back.
I've got the Lunati Voodoo 268 cam in the engine with dual valve springs.
 
yellowdartdave said:
Rotella diesel oil has a lot of zinc in it. That is what I use in my 340 with a .508 cam. I get it from the shop here at work. 15W40 by the gallon.
Click to expand...

fstfish66 said:
ok first of all,, no one is ever going to agree,,,

2nd shell rotella T, 15/40 is a diesel truck oil,,,and has also been cut back on zinc,,, i run a diesel and follow all that crap too,,,because of the new emissions as of 2007 and ULTRA LOW SULFUR FUELS,,, zinc in all diesle oil has been cut back as well,,,
Click to expand...

That is what I use in mine too. Works great. Yes, the zinc has been cut but I'm pretty sure it is still higher than the Gasoline oils. This is in a stock 318 by the way.
 
grassy said:
I guess my first question is what the heck is SM ?
Click to expand...
SM rating is the NEWEST rating of motor oil. and the lowest ZINC (ZDDP) and phosphorus yet.. soon to be phased out completely. in my own personal experiance ZDDP is only needed for breakin with flat tappet cams. another thing people seem to forget is that ZDDP is ONLY there in case of metal to metal contact. now, people are thinking.. well what about startup? theres always a film of oil on your cam lobes. oil is a form of liquid. liquids CANNOT be compressed. so therefore there is no metal to metal contact. if your engine takes ALONG time to register oil pressure after initial startup.. you need a new oil pump to help fight the wear on a camshaft. IF there is an oiling problem, the oil get hot and like any other liquid it "boils" off. for a lack of a better term. when that happens, NO amount of ZDDP will help. like i said before, killer valvesprings and/or oiling problems will kill the camshaft. even with ideal conditions, killer spring rates put tremendous pressure per cycle of the spring.. and the pressure on the oil will transfer to the cam lobe causing it to wear out over time. ie: kinda like a waterjet.. but obviously not as extream or fast acting. thats why those cams/valvesprings need replacing more often. hope this makes some sence to you.
 
compressing something in a closed air tight enviroment and just squishing it out r 2 different things.

if the oil had no where to go then that would make some sense.

Go jump in a puddle and tell me where the water go's.

Film is film , but the pressure is more the focus here.jmo

but hey we can think what what we like.
 
Ian - The "SM, SL, SJ, etc" refer to the Society of Automotive Engineers rating system for oils. In this case, gasoline engine oil and deisel oils for use in vehicles with catalytic convertors. The lower the letter, the more modern the blend. The EPA forced manufacturers to lower the additive packages containing the zink because of pollution issues associated with catalytic convertor failure. SM has less than SL, SL has less than SJ. Shell rotella and any deisel oil that carries the SAE gold medallion has the same zink limits as the gasoline engine. So if you can find older stock oils and check the SAE medallion that says SJ you're fine. but stocks are very hard to find that old. Check local parts stores that dont move volumes of oil. I bought 3 cases of SJ 20-50 last year when I found some in Car Quests warehouse system. But if the bottle says SM, it's got about 30% the zink it used to. The up side is first, the XE268 cam is a fairly mild grind and if you have the Comp 901 springs you should be fine. Second, as this is a "fun" car, you can also buy oil sold as "not for highway use" that does have the higher zink. Brad Penn, Valvoline racing (the not for street stuff, not SAE rated VR-1), Joe Gobbs all offer oils like that. They are not synthetic, and they are more expensive and usually dyed so they are mixed up with std oils. I recommend straight 30wt off road VR1 with most of my engines. It can be bought easilly and has plenty of zink. If you're changing oil twice a year it's not a big deal to spend $50 per oil change on oil.

edit: There is no oil between the lifter and cam lobe at startup At least not enough to form a wedge to keep the parts from touching. That is where the ZDDP works. Cams are only splash oiled... no pressure there. So the valve spring forces the oil out from between the parts. Rod bearings on cylinders with pressure in them have the same issue. That is where "cold start" (a misnomer... all engines hot of cold that are turned off suffer from this) wear takes place. The faster an engine fires the less wear it has as a result. I dont believe it will go away. But the single largest friction spot in the old engines is the lifter face on startup.
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
compressing something in a closed air tight enviroment and just squishing it out r 2 different things.

if the oil had no where to go then that would make some sense.

Go jump in a puddle and tell me where the water go's.

Film is film , but the pressure is more the focus here.jmo

but hey we can think what what we like.
Click to expand...
when the oil films are only so many microns thick.. it dosn't "go" anywhere and dosn't compress. thank Bill Nye the Science guy for that take two info.
 
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