EQ Heads and stock rocker arms?

[snailpower]

I am in process of tearing down a 5.9L magnum and hoping to rebuild for around 400hp carbed with an air gap intake, V belts, LA front cover, hughes cam, EQ heads and some dougs headers.

My question is pertaining to the rocker arms. In speaking with the guys from hughes they had mentioned I will need the HUG 1550 stainless rocker arms (Hughes Engines). Is there any reason I couldn't just use the rocker arms from the stock heads and save myself $345?

The cam I am thinking of using is this one: Hughes Engines

The EQ heads are these (with 1110 springs): Hughes Engines

 

[mod5v]

I run a little bigger hydrolic flat tapet with the EQ and stock stamped magnum rockers. you just need to make sure the pushrods are the proper length as the rockers are not adjustable. run mine all the time to 6500 no problems. The stock pushrods may be ok just need to check once you get it assembled.

 

[snailpower]

I was planning on running the 5260 Pushrods Hughes Engines

 

[AJ/FormS]

There are several advantages to running adjustables;
0) Possibly/probably better geometry.
1) setting lifter preload.
1.2) resetting preload cuz you didn't set it right the first time.
1.4) resetting the preload periodically for wear compensation
1.6) compensating for varying pushrod heights due to decks not parallel to the crank or heads not machined flat.
1.8) changing the lifter preload cuz .080 to .095 is a ridiculously huge amount of preload;( I run 1/2 turn).
3) roller tips and bushed bores
5) ability to reset the Quench with thinner or thicker head gaskets
7) strength, and freedom from push-rod punch-thru.
8) they look really hi-performance.
9) bragging rights

 

[AJ/FormS]

If there is room in your Compression Ratio,and on your heads, I would choose one size bigger. I ran a Hughes HE 2430 AL FTH, normally aspirated and just loved it. This is a 223/230/110@050. This made tons of torque,great fuel mileage, and with the 1110 springs, reved to 7000 all the time. The power peak will be about 200 rpm higher, and will help extend the operating range of the engine, to properly use that AG manifold. Plus spinning the tires at 45/50 mph, with a foot-stomp is a blast.
This cam likes lots of compression.And so will every bigger cam after it.
It's not that it needs it tho. I installed it into an 11.3Scr with aluminum heads. With 3.55s and a 2.66 low(A833) it was almost a dump it and go deal. A ton of torque. Don't try that with an 8.0 engine,lol, it will stall every time.
The cam you have selected is a great cam for a smaller engine. The 360 has so much torque tho, that you can easily give some up at idle, to get a few hundred more operating range. This 2430 cam will easily pull 3.23s and pull them to 60 mph to-boot!, with a 2.45low/A904 this will be about 6800 with 5% slip in the TC. Yeah this is way past it's power peak (maybe 5200), but with the 1110s and 1/2 turn lifter preload it will willingly go there.(at least mine did). If you intend to spend time up there on a regular basis( I did), then you will need to do some oiling mods to keep the rod-bearings alive.
But seriously, with a powerpeak around 5200, 6000 should be considered a reasonable shift-rpm for the automatic's powerband.And then you can skip the oiling mods. Just make sure the oil-pan has the proper oil-level in it!

Those 1110s make pretty good pressure. They have been known to punch thru pre-magnum LA stamped rocker arms.

 

[snailpower]

Hmm, lots of good info. I was thinking the cam was a bit on the conservative side as well but it will be primarily street setup and has power brakes if that makes any difference here. I really like the idea of a 50mph rolling burnout tho haha.

The pistons will be the magnum stockers, I am trying to get away without digging into the bottom end too much.

Also already picked up a kevko oil pan / pickup with a new standard volume oil pump.

As for gears I am running an 8.75 with 3.55 gears and a trutrac diff. Also currently I think a 2200 stall on a beefed up 904 I was hoping to keep. Tires are BFG Sport comp2 245/45/17 that grip pretty well with the current 318 (hoping the magnum will overpower them though haha).

 

[AJ/FormS]

Hmm, lots of good info. I was thinking the cam was a bit on the conservative side as well but it will be primarily street setup and has power brakes if that makes any difference here. I really like the idea of a 50mph rolling burnout tho haha.

The pistons will be the magnum stockers, I am trying to get away without digging into the bottom end too much.

Also already picked up a kevko oil pan / pickup with a new standard volume oil pump.

As for gears I am running an 8.75 with 3.55 gears and a trutrac diff. Also currently I think a 2200 stall on a beefed up 904 I was hoping to keep. Tires are BFG Sport comp2 245/45/17 that grip pretty well with the current 318 (hoping the magnum will overpower them though haha).

Well everything, IMO, is gonna hinge on your compression ratio.
A fast-rate 223ish roller cam with a decent Dcr will annihilate 245s. Also, again with a decent Dcr, the 2200 that is currently behind the 318, and is in fact a 2200 there, it will be fine for your stated useage. And the 3.55s will be just right.
But if your compression sags into the basement, then all bets are off!
8.8. Then, if you cannot get into the range of .030 t .045 in Quench, you better take off another .2 so now 8.6. And if you want to run on 89, then take off another .2; so now 8.4 maxDcr. But to do this, you may have to be a sharp tuner, to get the timing curve just right, and to get the carb into the ballpark. If you just want to slam the dizzy in there and drive, then you better take off another .2; so now 8.2 is maxDcr.
Then we talk about altitude.......
If the car is gonna see altitude changes over 1000 ft, Then the higher you go the more Dcr you are gonna need to maintain power. So then the Dcr has to climb back up, and then at sealevel you have to run 91.
See what I mean, it all depends on your assembled and measured Static compression ratio.
So If you just wanna drive, then,Choose a conservative Dcr, like 7.8 to 8.2, and put whatever cam in there that makes the number.
And remember this; compression cannot start until the intake closes. The bigger the cam, the later the intake closes, and the lower the Dcr goes. And when the Dcr gets too low, the engine starts to give up low-speed torque. And you will feel it almost rightaway.
Just 4 degrees is "feel-able"! To undo this laziness, once it is all assembled, the answer is a higher stall TC, to let the engine spool up to a higher torque number.
So you can spend the money on compression, or you can spend it on bandaids, after the fact. So before you order up a cam, get the compression figured out. Measure, measure,measure.

As to power brakes, my 1973Dart booster worked just fine with the 2430 .

 

[snailpower]

Well everything, IMO, is gonna hinge on your compression ratio.

AJ/FormS,

First off thanks for taking the time to reply, some good info there.

About CR (static), like I said I won't be messing with pistons so they are stock Magnum "soap dishes." Stated compression according to mopar 9.1, but poking around on the net it seems most people are seeing around 8.75 or even lower down to 8.2 or something.

So I am thinking the only way I could boost the compression cheaply is through a thinner head gasket but thinking that could come back to bite me in the *** later in terms of durability. Was considering the Mr Gasket .028. Magnum swap has this to say:

They’re about half the thickness of a stock gasket. Cleanup is a snap as well. They seal well and increase compression significantly over stock. With a true 58cc casting such as the EQ Magnum or Edelbrock Performer RPM heads you’ll be in the vicinity of 9.5:1 compression with the stock short block.

So I guess I have that going for me lol.

For Elevation, I live and drive mostly around the flat lands in LA with an occasional drive up the canyon roads... so day to day like 300ft above sea level. Max elevation might be 3k-4k feet or so up in the canyons? Driving further up would be cool but i won't do it much.

I also have an innovate wide band o2 that I have been sitting on for about 5 years I wouldn't mind hooking up to help tuning. Im not too familiar with carb tuning but would enjoy learning.

I will always run at minimum 91 pee water gas we have here in CA.

At any rate, I am hoping the 5.9 mag compression will be a few points more than my current 72 318 with 302 heads. If i can get it to 9 at least with the head gasket I will be happy .

 

[snailpower]

Also Playing around with a DCR calculator online I got a DCR of 8.36:1 using the hughes 222/226 Cam (Hughes Engines) and an assumed static comp of 9:1. Using the originally linked 218/222 cam from the first post puts the DCR at 8.4.

This is with a conservative bet of 9:1 comp static. Thinner head gasket and theoretical 9.5:1 SCR would brings the 222/226 cam up to a 8.82 DCR.

 

[AJ/FormS]

You input the 050 numbers didn't you,lol;That won't work.
I get 6.77@128psi. You are in big trouble if it comes thru like that!
Anything under 140 psi, IMO is gonna be soft out of the gate.
So stop everything,lol, and
wait til the numbers are in.
Quit it!lol. You are setting yourself up for disappointment. SSSSSSSStop.

 

[AJ/FormS]

From post #9
Do you see that number 37* that you entered on the line called "Inlet valve closes"? That is the .050 number, and Wallace is asking for the advertised number. That number 37 will not work for calculating DCR.
Since Hughes doesn't publish the advertised number we have to fudge it.
Let's see how this cam might work out;
You see where you got that 37* from?Down there, just under where it says Cam Timing @.050 Tappet lift? That is where you got your 37* number. Unfortunately compression does not begin at that number cuz the valve is open by the tappet lift times the rocker ratio, Which on Magnums is 1.6. So the valve is .050x1.6=.080 open! So no, the .050 numbers cannot be used.
So lets estimate the Intake Closing Angle,from the only info we can go on; the archives.
OH no, they didn't even publish it there!. See, this is what I have against Hughes; a failure to disclose this stuff.

Ok so we are gonna have to fudge it.
I chose 37* as a fast-rate of lift for a hydraulic roller cam. It might not be 100% accurate, but it will be close. So let's add 37* to the published intake duration and see how it goes.
So 37 plus 222 intake duration=261, and I like to work with even numbers so I will arbitrarily round that up to 262*. And the Installed will remain at 106*..
Doing all the math I get an ICA of 57*. That is the number you need to enter where you previously entered 37.
And I hunted around and found 9.2 as fairly common Scr for 5.9s,so why not hope for the best; namely 9.2 Scr.
When I enter the new numbers into the Wallace, I get Dcr 7.7@152psi@300ft. It is my opinion that this will be reasonably accurate.
Here's the deal on that!
152 is pretty good!

Let's compare it to the stock cam. I hunted around some and this is what I found; 250/264/110 in at 119! This cam has an ICA of 64* and an LSA of 110. Plugging those into the Wallace, I get; Dcr of 7.43@143 psi

I estimate the Hughes to be 261/267/110,in at 106

So you are about 1.5 cam sizes bigger; a size being about 7*
As you can see;you will be making more power than the stocker, everywhere!
And the boost in low speed torque 152 psi versus 143 will be noticeable
At a Dcr of 7.7, you may be able to run 87 gas; I think so.

 

[Abodybomber]

Talk to Magnum Mopar, Brian at IMM, ..they do this , for a living. One shot, first shot, a few bucks up front..is WELL WORTH IT...

 

[Walker434]

To answer the original question, yes your stock rockers will work with EQ heads. That's what I'm running. I'm running a comp push rod that is a little shorter to compensate for the custom ground comp cam I'm running. Eventually I'll go to some roller rockers but I've been running these stock rockers for 2 years making 6,000 RPM passes with no problems

 

[replicaracer43]

Be cautious of the installed height of the valve!!!! If there taller than stock, you will have crappy geometry with the stock rocker. My 2 cents

 

[ValiantOne]

So I am thinking the only way I could boost the compression cheaply is through a thinner head gasket but thinking that could come back to bite me in the *** later in terms of durability. Was considering the Mr Gasket .028.
.

I just bought these head gaskets myself. Have you heard anything negative about durability?

 

[AJ/FormS]

I installed some .028s in my 367. I don't recall what manufacturer.
At the end of the summer, at my usual tear down for inspection, I found both sides were getting ready to pop, between the center two cylinders. My compression ratio was 11.3/1
I replaced them with the FellPro .039compressed, and remachined the decks for 10.9Scr and never had a problem with those. In fact they have been reused several times since then, and have now been in there since about 2004.
I wanna say those .028s were Orange, but I can't say that with conviction. They mightabin black. I took that engine in and out 5 winters in a row. All or most all of the gaskets were re-useables, and I figured it was better for me to pull the engine and inspect it, then to replace it if it blew up, cuz I had no money to do that twice. And each winter I caught a different issue just in the nick of time. But the last time, it was A-OK so it stayed in since then.

 

[70aarcuda]

The latest 1121G are black just got a set on Wednesday.....The one bracket car had a set of them on it for 7 years....

 

[ValiantOne]

The latest 1121G are black just got a set on Wednesday.....The one bracket car had a set of them on it for 7 years....

Yeah that is the part # I just got too. Maybe with a 9-ish cr they will survive longer than the ones in you 13 cr engine. Anyway, I hope so!

 

[Shainesboostin]

There are several advantages to running adjustables;
0) Possibly/probably better geometry.
1) setting lifter preload.
1.2) resetting preload cuz you didn't set it right the first time.
1.4) resetting the preload periodically for wear compensation
1.6) compensating for varying pushrod heights due to decks not parallel to the crank or heads not machined flat.
1.8) changing the lifter preload cuz .080 to .095 is a ridiculously huge amount of preload;( I run 1/2 turn). Why do you say that? Factory was all the way to like .120
Not saying your wrong, just remember trying to figure this out myself. I did a cam in my magnum, used harland sharp roller rockers. Non adjustable. Stock pushrods and they had like .090 preload. Hughes said it was fine, but seemed high to me.
3) roller tips and bushed bores
5) ability to reset the Quench with thinner or thicker head gaskets
7) strength, and freedom from push-rod punch-thru.
8) they look really hi-performance.
9) bragging rights

 

[AJ/FormS]

1.8) changing the lifter preload cuz .080 to .095 is a ridiculously huge amount of preload;( I run 1/2 turn). Why do you say that? Factory was all the way to like .120
Not saying your wrong, just remember trying to figure this out myself. I did a cam in my magnum, used harland sharp roller rockers. Non adjustable. Stock pushrods and they had like .090 preload. Hughes said it was fine, but seemed high to me.

Cuz, most hydraulic lifters are only good to maybe 6000/6500rpm, before they start to creep. And if your valve springs cannot control the valves after this, then the lifter will pump up for sure, doing what they were designed to do;namely be slack adjusters.
So, if you miss a shift (manual trans), and the Rs climb into the 8000s, then the valves float, the lifters do their job, and if you didn't plan for this during the build, then the valves get into the pistons and you basically ruined the heads. But it gets worse. Maybe all this monkey motion spits out the keepers and a valve drops into the chamber. Or if the head of a valve breaks off,and if it gets into the water jacket;you get to buy a new block. Maybe all you are left with is a crank and some rods.
But maybe you get lucky and she just bends all the pushrods.
And you don't have to miss a shift to get into this kindof trouble. Maybe the valve springs are just not up to the task.
With an automatic it's a different story. The 727/904s have a very wide 1-2 split, and the 2-3 is only slightly better. So it doesn't take much of a cam and then you are winding it up to 6800 for the 1-2, and to 6400 on the 2-3. So if the springs can't handle it, you are in the same chit.
But if the preload is only .020 or maybe .030, then if the lifters do pump up, there is no danger of the valves hitting the piston. You might not even notice it on the street. Until one day you need to chop the throttle right after hitting the shift-rpm and the engine stalls, and won't restart afterwards; cuz the compression is way down.
The trick to long valve-train life on the street, is to run the correct spring pressure for the expected operating range and not much more. Extra pressure just creates heat and costs power, and stresses the cam.
Now, if you wanna buzz it up to 7200 on a regular basis,( like I do) you cannot afford lifter pump-up. So more than .030 preload is risky business.
Or I guess I could just get solids,lol. But I have a hard time with solids and streeter being in the same paragraph, much less sentence,lol. I like going several to many years without a valve adjustment.
During a hydraulic lifters entire life it should never require .120 adjustment range. If the wear at the lobe-interface got to be that much, the engine would long ago have succumbed to be an oil-burning lump.
But with a non-adjustable system......you get what you get. So get yourself a rev-limiter. And ease into finding the proper shift-rpm.
As for me, I missed a shift once, and saw the tach-needle coming down past 8000. No damage, and engine idled perfectly. Hughes anti-pump-ups and #1110 springs IIRC and I shimmed them up "a little extra",lol. Cam is one of theirs an old HE 3038 with advertised lifts of .549/.571 using 1.6 arms.

 

[Shainesboostin]

Wow. My preload is actually at .100 and I rev it to 6k and spray it with nitrous!!! Oops

 

[AJ/FormS]

So.
I rev mine to 7200 with .030 preload.
And some other guy will float his valves at 5500,have no contact, and run it like this for 40 years.
Valve springs are the key ingredient.

 

[subcom]

I have a stock bottom end 5.9 with EQ heads, 2.02 intakes and heavier springs. I run the factory stamped rockers and inexpensive pushrods that are slightly longer than stock. I got my information from magnumswap.com. My cam is a regrind of the factory cam, Profile #1357 from Oregon Camshaft. The lift is not quiet as high as yours. 5.15/5.15 with a 1.6 rocker. I've spun mine over 6500 RPM multiple times w/o issue. My setup is currently turbo charged. I recently replaced my head gaskets with the the thicker Felpros' because I popped both sides of the thin 0.28 ones.

 

[1969GTS340]

Great post and very helpful information. But it has me sitting here looking at the pile of engine parts that I've collected over the past 10 months and am about to begin assembling. Here's my combination of parts and I'm pondering any needed changes. Open to any and all advice. Long block is a 340 +.060 over with KB243 pistons on factory rods and balanced forged crank. I have a Lunati VooDoo Cam #102000704 with specs listed below.

• Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284
• Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242
• Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533
• LSA/ICL: 110/106
• Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
• RPM Range: 2200-6400

I just picked up a set of Hughes EQ Heads that came with the 2.02 Stainless valves and 1110
springs. The previous owner of the heads had them cut .040 which makes things a little
tighter in terms of piston to head clearance since the KB's coming out of the hole at .018 topped off with a shaved closed chamber head. My (non-professional) calculations tell me the a set of Celtic .060 head gaskets will regain the safe space needed for this combination? (Looking for experienced input here). Once assembled I will of course check all clearances.

Next close spec I'm looking at is the cam and spings combo. The VooDoo cam is at .547/.569 @234/242 respectfully using a 1.6 Rocker. This lift is slightly over the spec of 1110 springs of .550
If I use a 1.5 rocker I would fall just under the spring max at .513/533 With that said, I am cautiously leaning towards a 1.5 rocker yet reluctant to give up the added lift of the 1.6. Hughes spring spec also lists a coil bind at .620 which I'm thinking might allow me to run the 1.6 rocker?
(Looking for more experienced input here).

The rest of the build includes an AirGap with Holley 750DP, 727 trans with manual valve body (converter TBD somewhere between 3000-4000) 8-3/4 4:88 on a spool. The application is an
A-Body 1/8th mi. track use only. Hoping for 400+HP and a low 7sec ET.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I know a 360 cam make 400 with that combo, maybe a bit more. So a 340 will be nip and tuck.
My 367 has a very similar cam, and powerpeaks at about 5400. In your 340 it might peak a tad higher, but with those heads the peak will be hard to find exactly. In any case the 727 has a pretty steep 1-2 split and the 2-3 is a bit better.
Looking at the ratios; 2.45-1.45-1.00, I see the splits are .54 and 69. So the 2-3 shift will probably need to be around 6400. This will make the outgoing power, near to the incoming power.You will need to fine tune it from there. The Rs will drop from 6400 to something like 4400. So in this gear the powerband requirement is 2000 rpm. The 1-2 will require an even higher shift-rpm.Knowing this, don't forget to mod your oiling system to survive that.
With 400 hp you will probably trap around 95mph,so 4.88s will get you about 5800 with 28s,;sounds about right. I ran those for 93mph.
The 750AG is right.
I run the 1110 springs with 1.6 rockers with the Hughes HE 3038AL that advertises .539/.571(1.6). I threw in some extra shims of .030/seat IIRC, and it Revs happily to well past 7200 with no issues. I run a 7qt pan and a HVpump. So the springs are Ok too. I had lots of PV clearance; but you'll have to check yours. I run otherwise stock Eddies.
My philosophy was; Since I have to buy adjustable arms anyway, it might as well be 1.6s. I didn't buy then for the extra lift, but for the extra dwell; up to, on top, and over, the nose. Seems to be working. Mine is a 68 Barracuda DD.
If you can get your 60ft down to 1.7 or less, 7.5s are easy. At 2.2 60ft my time was 7.92@93@3467#