Started going over my new toy.(440 Dart) Noticed a lot of braided stainless fuel line with regular hose clamps. Is this NHRA legal? Is the socketless hose like Aeroquip makes considered rubber hose?(i.e. no more than 1 foot of rubber hose allowed) How well do the hard tube adapters work for going from hard line to an fittings. Sorry for all the questions. Trying to get this heap safe and legal. More to follow.....
Fuel line?
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bOb shingler
Well-Known Member
yes it's legal. interesting question about the socketless hose. they work just fine.
At our local track they do not allow regular hose clamps on ss braided line. I haven't used the socketless hose and fittings. I do use the hard tube adapters from tubing to an and they work fine. The summitt or jegs line of fittings are nice quality and less expensive.
I needed a complete, new, half-inch fuel system for my A-Body.
I am pathetically inept at configuring metal hose... just have NO talent nor patience for doing it. No joke (it's not EVEN funny...)
My car is a '72 Valiant 4-door sedan street/strip car that needs half-inch fuel line, and a 30+-pound pump because of using a boost-referenced fuel-pressure regulator, and the inertia "weight" of the fuel in a half-inch line, during a 1.50, 60-foot time, launch. Like, my car has ever been capable of that... but, I an hope, can't I????
So, when I installed what is actually, two, "half-inch fuel systems" for my supercharged (10-pound, boosted) 360 Magnum, I looked for non-metallic, alternatives, which led me to a nearby professsional chassis-building facility (dirt-track, roundy-round cars,) a place that apparently has a really good reputation for constructing a variety of chassis types for circle track racing.
Their reputation is very, very good....
The fuel-system tech at that place (GRT Race Cars,) listened to me describe my car and its intended usage, and recommended that I build this system from what he called "Push-On" hose and fitting technology, using a silicone hose that employes NO hose clamps when pushed onto the proper, barbed, fittings.
I asked him about how wise that was, in case of an accident, and he said two things that made up my mind for me: 1 He said that he'd witnessed race cars whose fuel cells had fallen OUT OF THE VEHICLE, and were being dragged around the race course (driver unaware) and they eventually would pull the hose in two, before the hose would come off the fitting... with no clamp. 2. That the type of dirt track racing that they build for, is the most punishing, physically-demanding environment, anywhere, for fuel system plumbing, and that they haven't used anything but this "silicone hose/push-on fitting system" technology for years... because it works.
So, I thought I'd try it. I don't race my car at any strips tht have very stringent tech rules, much less at an NHRA strip, so, I haven't had to deal with a tech crew that thinks this system is unsafe.
My system consists of the original tank (for pump gas), and an 8-gallon trunk-mounted fuel cell, which contains Av-Gas for drag strip use (read: "high-octane for BOOST.") A high-volume, high-delivery pressure pump is mounted in the trunk, while, a Holley Blue Pump is mounted down alongside the rear spring's housing-mounting plate, for daily-driver, no boost driving... Tried a Holley Black, and it lasted about 45 minutes.... Go figure...:angry7:
Either pump can deliver from either tank, and all fuel goes through a filter before, and after the pump(s.) Just a couple of valves to turn, and two toggle switches to flip, to change systems, completely.
So far, I haven't had any leaks from these push-on hose fittings.
A word of advice; these fittings are A-N anodized aluminum, and aren't (in my opinion, but, I'm poor....) reasonably-priced. Neither is the hose; something like $3.00 per linear foot, if I remember correctly.
The upside is, I threw my tubing bender away...
Hope I'm not sorry, down the road...
I wouldn't necessarily recommend this "push-on" technology to anyone, but this has been my experience with it. If I could bend tubes and not flatten them, I might well have an aluminum system on my car....:cheers:
I am pathetically inept at configuring metal hose... just have NO talent nor patience for doing it. No joke (it's not EVEN funny...)
My car is a '72 Valiant 4-door sedan street/strip car that needs half-inch fuel line, and a 30+-pound pump because of using a boost-referenced fuel-pressure regulator, and the inertia "weight" of the fuel in a half-inch line, during a 1.50, 60-foot time, launch. Like, my car has ever been capable of that... but, I an hope, can't I????
So, when I installed what is actually, two, "half-inch fuel systems" for my supercharged (10-pound, boosted) 360 Magnum, I looked for non-metallic, alternatives, which led me to a nearby professsional chassis-building facility (dirt-track, roundy-round cars,) a place that apparently has a really good reputation for constructing a variety of chassis types for circle track racing.
Their reputation is very, very good....
The fuel-system tech at that place (GRT Race Cars,) listened to me describe my car and its intended usage, and recommended that I build this system from what he called "Push-On" hose and fitting technology, using a silicone hose that employes NO hose clamps when pushed onto the proper, barbed, fittings.
I asked him about how wise that was, in case of an accident, and he said two things that made up my mind for me: 1 He said that he'd witnessed race cars whose fuel cells had fallen OUT OF THE VEHICLE, and were being dragged around the race course (driver unaware) and they eventually would pull the hose in two, before the hose would come off the fitting... with no clamp. 2. That the type of dirt track racing that they build for, is the most punishing, physically-demanding environment, anywhere, for fuel system plumbing, and that they haven't used anything but this "silicone hose/push-on fitting system" technology for years... because it works.
So, I thought I'd try it. I don't race my car at any strips tht have very stringent tech rules, much less at an NHRA strip, so, I haven't had to deal with a tech crew that thinks this system is unsafe.
My system consists of the original tank (for pump gas), and an 8-gallon trunk-mounted fuel cell, which contains Av-Gas for drag strip use (read: "high-octane for BOOST.") A high-volume, high-delivery pressure pump is mounted in the trunk, while, a Holley Blue Pump is mounted down alongside the rear spring's housing-mounting plate, for daily-driver, no boost driving... Tried a Holley Black, and it lasted about 45 minutes.... Go figure...:angry7:
Either pump can deliver from either tank, and all fuel goes through a filter before, and after the pump(s.) Just a couple of valves to turn, and two toggle switches to flip, to change systems, completely.
So far, I haven't had any leaks from these push-on hose fittings.
A word of advice; these fittings are A-N anodized aluminum, and aren't (in my opinion, but, I'm poor....) reasonably-priced. Neither is the hose; something like $3.00 per linear foot, if I remember correctly.
The upside is, I threw my tubing bender away...
Hope I'm not sorry, down the road...
I wouldn't necessarily recommend this "push-on" technology to anyone, but this has been my experience with it. If I could bend tubes and not flatten them, I might well have an aluminum system on my car....:cheers:
Looks a LOT like garden hose, but, it's not...
CHEATHAM
Well-Known Member
Your a lucky guy to have the oppurtunity to talk to the guys at GRT, they are one of the top chassi builders in the country, any thing they recomend is top quality, i dont know and dont give a crap what nihra rules say bout this that and what not but when i build or change something i do it according to what the circle track guys do, im a circle track guy"retired", my Dart has more circle track technology in it that people look at it and go HUMM. anyway push on hose is great and easy to use, Hey what you gonna do if you need that spare tire lol?
Holy mackerel, Bill! That looks like the fuel system on the space shuttle! That would scare me if I opened the trunk unaware! Nice!
Is that circle track fuel line and connections similiar to the stuff used on late model fuel injected cars?
Is that circle track fuel line and connections similiar to the stuff used on late model fuel injected cars?
Very interesting!
One think I like is that there is endless routing combinations with a system like this?
Bill - What manufacturer did you use? (sorry if I missed it in the post)
I see Russel has something similar called a:
TWIST-LOK HOSE & HOSE ENDS
One think I like is that there is endless routing combinations with a system like this?
Bill - What manufacturer did you use? (sorry if I missed it in the post)
I see Russel has something similar called a:
TWIST-LOK HOSE & HOSE ENDS
This is for you.... 8) Plenty of extra hose to allow for spare extraction! 
Oopa... sorry; I misspelled your name... My bad!
Oopa... sorry; I misspelled your name... My bad!
Thanks for all the kind comments; I'll get back to the other questions and comments, tonight.... Wife's in the hospital.... gotta make a trip over there...
Thanks again for the opinions, comments, questions, etc.... I appreciate it!!!
Thanks again for the opinions, comments, questions, etc.... I appreciate it!!!
Stormy69
Dusted
thats the socketless aeroquip hose mentioned in the first post, it is not considered "rubber" hose by NHRA and weighs much less than ss braid...
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/AeroquipPerformanceProducts/HoseProducts/index.htm
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/ProductsServices/AeroquipPerformanceProducts/HoseProducts/index.htm
Well, I called GRT a few minutes ago, and all the guy could or would tell me was that Gates makes the half-inch hose he sells, and that the "push-on" fittings are the pertinent item; apparently, those push-on hose fittings will work well with ANY hose. I'm sure he meant any high-quality, silicone, pressure hose.
At least, that's what he said.
The fittings, themselves, I didn't get to ask about, but, I'd bet that any comprehensive fitting manufacturer has a line of them. They're A-N fittings, and available in a variety of A-N sizes.
GRT's phone number is (501) 679-2311, Greenbrier, Arkansas.
Hope this helps...
At least, that's what he said.
The fittings, themselves, I didn't get to ask about, but, I'd bet that any comprehensive fitting manufacturer has a line of them. They're A-N fittings, and available in a variety of A-N sizes.
GRT's phone number is (501) 679-2311, Greenbrier, Arkansas.
Hope this helps...
SPEEDTHRILLS WROTE: "Is that circle track fuel line and connections similiar to the stuff used on late model fuel injected cars?"
I don't know; I've never had the chance to get that close to a "late model car."
I doubt it, but it could be; my car runs at 30 PSI.... I think the late model stuff uses a much higher pressure for their F.I. That way, they can get by with a smaller hose... theoretically...
I don't know; I've never had the chance to get that close to a "late model car."
I doubt it, but it could be; my car runs at 30 PSI.... I think the late model stuff uses a much higher pressure for their F.I. That way, they can get by with a smaller hose... theoretically...
Thanks for all the info. I used to work in a transmission shop, so I can bend hard line well enough. I'm thinking hard line from the fuel filter in back to the regulator, then silicon line and fittings for all the other connections. By the way, this car passed tech at Woodburn the way it sits for the P.O.
moper
Well-Known Member
You do not want to have a solid tube from pump or filter to the regulator. The cars flex and the hard connections will fatigue and can crack on a street car. I've seen it many times with the aluminum tubing. You can run hard line, but use braid or something to have some flexible joints at the ends.
Just for general information, I went to the Aeroquip site and looked at the fittings they use for their "Socketless" technology hose connections, and found them to be visually, at least, identical to the barbed fittings that I used to build my so-called "Push-On" hose system.
Probably a copyright issue....
Probably a copyright issue....
Dorian
dorian
"I asked him about how wise that was, in case of an accident, and he said two things that made up my mind for me: 1 He said that he'd witnessed race cars whose fuel cells had fallen OUT OF THE VEHICLE, and were being dragged around the race course (driver unaware) and they eventually would pull the hose in two, before the hose would come off the fitting... with no clamp."
I hate it when people make comments like this. As an NHRA tech inspector I see lots of different types of car builds. I talk to the circle track guys next door to us and compare their tech to ours, it is always a good idea to see what other motorsports do for safety.
Yes, NHRA is strict when it comes to safety, but for good reasons, it saves lives and it keeps the insurance companies happy.
Now as far as the comment I seen racecars fuel tanks fall out, can only be attributed to poor quality installation. It has nothing to do with what type of lines the builder used.
I have seen high pressure oilfield lines fabricated with crimped ends used for fuel, hell if it withstands over 250 psi it sure as hell is good enough for 30 psi. And it is strong enough to withstand cuts and abrasions as well.
I could easily say, as an NHRA member and drag racer, that obviously the car in question was a stockcar and pigeon hole it in a category that all stockcars are built with the farmers method of building something, but that is not fair. I have seen many stockcars that were built properly and to the rules.
All you have to do is go to nhra.com and look in the rule book and it will tell you what is acceptable and what is not.
I hate it when people make comments like this. As an NHRA tech inspector I see lots of different types of car builds. I talk to the circle track guys next door to us and compare their tech to ours, it is always a good idea to see what other motorsports do for safety.
Yes, NHRA is strict when it comes to safety, but for good reasons, it saves lives and it keeps the insurance companies happy.
Now as far as the comment I seen racecars fuel tanks fall out, can only be attributed to poor quality installation. It has nothing to do with what type of lines the builder used.
I have seen high pressure oilfield lines fabricated with crimped ends used for fuel, hell if it withstands over 250 psi it sure as hell is good enough for 30 psi. And it is strong enough to withstand cuts and abrasions as well.
I could easily say, as an NHRA member and drag racer, that obviously the car in question was a stockcar and pigeon hole it in a category that all stockcars are built with the farmers method of building something, but that is not fair. I have seen many stockcars that were built properly and to the rules.
All you have to do is go to nhra.com and look in the rule book and it will tell you what is acceptable and what is not.
Bill said, "I asked him about how wise that was, in case of an accident, and he said two things that made up my mind for me: 1 He said that he'd witnessed race cars whose fuel cells had fallen OUT OF THE VEHICLE, and were being dragged around the race course (driver unaware) and they eventually would pull the hose in two, before the hose would come off the fitting... with no clamp."
Dorian said:
I hate it when people make comments like this.
As an NHRA tech inspector I see lots of different types of car builds. I talk to the circle track guys next door to us and compare their tech to ours, it is always a good idea to see what other motorsports do for safety.
So, why do you "hate it" when people make comments like that? All I did was to reiterate exactly what the dirt track guru told me. None of what he said was my opinion; it belonged to HIM. You said, yourself, "it is always good to see what the other motorsports do for safety."
Basically, that is exactly what I was doing, since there are no NHRA tracks in this state. I've never been to a dirt track race in my life (and, I'm 70 years old; don't plan to start, now,) but I thought they must know SOMETHING, since they (GRT) have an International reputation as a top-flight chassis builder.
So, I asked his opinion. What's the matter with doing that?
Yes, NHRA is strict when it comes to safety, but for good reasons, it saves lives and it keeps the insurance companies happy.
No argument at all with that.... you're right.
Now as far as the comment "I have seen racecars' fuel tanks fall out," can only be attributed to poor quality installation. It has nothing to do with what type of lines the builder used.
Once again, you're right, but no one was discussing what made the fuel cell fall out. Yes, it probably WAS a poor installation. That's another issue. I thought we were talking about types of fuel line in this thread, not how to safely mount a fuel cell. That's a subject for another thread, isn't it? His whole point was, that push-on line cannot be pulled off the barbed fittings used in these installations; it will pull the line apart before it will come off the fitting, even WITHOUT a hose clamp of any kind. That's what HE said.... not me.
I have seen high pressure oilfield lines fabricated with crimped ends used for fuel. Hell, if it withstands over 250 psi, it sure as Hell is good enough for 30 psi. And it is strong enough to withstand cuts and abrasions as well.
And, your point is??? Once again, this discussion was about push-on hose... I never once mentioned "high-pressure oilfield lines." I'm sure it's great stuff...
I could easily say, as an NHRA member and drag racer, that obviously the car in question was a stockcar and pigeon hole it in a category that all stockcars are built with the farmers method of building something, but that is not fair. I have seen many stockcars that were built properly and to the rules.
Once again, I have to ask what all that means. How does that paragraph relate to push-on hose for a street-strip, bracket car? Or, does it???
All you have to do is go to nhra.com and look in the rule book and it will tell you what is acceptable and what is not.
As I said before, I don't concern myself with what NHRA's policies are, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that this car will never see an NHRA drag strip.
I was mainly wanting an opinion from someone who is familiar with "push-on" hose to see how it is regarded by folks who have actually used it.
But thanks for your comments; I'm sure that you're trying to help.
Dorian said:
I hate it when people make comments like this.
As an NHRA tech inspector I see lots of different types of car builds. I talk to the circle track guys next door to us and compare their tech to ours, it is always a good idea to see what other motorsports do for safety.
So, why do you "hate it" when people make comments like that? All I did was to reiterate exactly what the dirt track guru told me. None of what he said was my opinion; it belonged to HIM. You said, yourself, "it is always good to see what the other motorsports do for safety."
Basically, that is exactly what I was doing, since there are no NHRA tracks in this state. I've never been to a dirt track race in my life (and, I'm 70 years old; don't plan to start, now,) but I thought they must know SOMETHING, since they (GRT) have an International reputation as a top-flight chassis builder.
So, I asked his opinion. What's the matter with doing that?
Yes, NHRA is strict when it comes to safety, but for good reasons, it saves lives and it keeps the insurance companies happy.
No argument at all with that.... you're right.
Now as far as the comment "I have seen racecars' fuel tanks fall out," can only be attributed to poor quality installation. It has nothing to do with what type of lines the builder used.
Once again, you're right, but no one was discussing what made the fuel cell fall out. Yes, it probably WAS a poor installation. That's another issue. I thought we were talking about types of fuel line in this thread, not how to safely mount a fuel cell. That's a subject for another thread, isn't it? His whole point was, that push-on line cannot be pulled off the barbed fittings used in these installations; it will pull the line apart before it will come off the fitting, even WITHOUT a hose clamp of any kind. That's what HE said.... not me.
I have seen high pressure oilfield lines fabricated with crimped ends used for fuel. Hell, if it withstands over 250 psi, it sure as Hell is good enough for 30 psi. And it is strong enough to withstand cuts and abrasions as well.
And, your point is??? Once again, this discussion was about push-on hose... I never once mentioned "high-pressure oilfield lines." I'm sure it's great stuff...
I could easily say, as an NHRA member and drag racer, that obviously the car in question was a stockcar and pigeon hole it in a category that all stockcars are built with the farmers method of building something, but that is not fair. I have seen many stockcars that were built properly and to the rules.
Once again, I have to ask what all that means. How does that paragraph relate to push-on hose for a street-strip, bracket car? Or, does it???
All you have to do is go to nhra.com and look in the rule book and it will tell you what is acceptable and what is not.
As I said before, I don't concern myself with what NHRA's policies are, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that this car will never see an NHRA drag strip.
I was mainly wanting an opinion from someone who is familiar with "push-on" hose to see how it is regarded by folks who have actually used it.
But thanks for your comments; I'm sure that you're trying to help.
Stormy69
Dusted
Thanks, Stormy 69; now, I get it...
Dunno how I missed that the first time around... My bad!
I appreciate your input!
Dunno how I missed that the first time around... My bad!
I appreciate your input!
Dorian
dorian
Bill I am sorry if I came across the wrong way I was not pointing fingers at you, just stating that I didn't like it when a comment is said in the context that the gentleman from GTR seemed to come across with, it just sounds like a sales pitch to sell a product that they use.
I am not putting down GTR I am sure that they do great work, as for the rest of my comments I was just having a bout of verbal diarrhea so please don't hold it against me.
Good Luck with the rest of your build
dorian
I am not putting down GTR I am sure that they do great work, as for the rest of my comments I was just having a bout of verbal diarrhea so please don't hold it against me.
Good Luck with the rest of your build
dorian
Dorian, no problemo!!! You're probably 100-percent right; it probably WAS a sales pitch... and me, being too ignorant to check the NHRA pages, it worked!!! Oh well...
RE: "verbal diarrhea" (Thanks; I never can spell that right), I seem to be terminally-afflicted with that, so don't let it worry you; it hasn't killed me yet, and I'm the poster child...:cheers:
Thanks for the well wishes, and the good information!!! Have a super week...
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