Head and cam selection help for 440

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mopower440

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Back about 17 years ago i built this 440 for my dart. didnt have a lot of money to do it at the time but i started with a low compression 1975 440 out of a new yorker. I wanted to raise the compression some so i found a set of used .030 over sealed power 2355 6 pack pistons. So i took the block and pistons to the machine shop and had the block bored and the pistons pressed onto my LY rods and the rest of the block work done. Had the bone stock 452 heads gone through and had the correct valve springs installed for the MP 284/484 cam i used. SO, i have the .030 over 440 with 9.5:1 compression with the stock unported 452 heads and the 284/484 cam installed 4 degrees advanced at 104. Holley street dominator intake, 1 7/8 fenderwell headers, race prepped thermoquad, 3000 stall and 3.23 gears. It probably doesnt have 1000 miles on the engine build as i drive it just for fun on the weekends sometimes. I want to get more out of it and want to buy some aluminum heads and a better cam. My first choice in heads would be the trick flows but not sure if i will be able to swing those, so question, what about these speed pro, pro max, edelbrock etc..? I would not be able to afford getting them ported so they would just be checked out of the box and then ran as cast. SO, will all of these heads out of the box outflow the 452's enough to be worth doing this? I thought i read somewhere on here or moparts that all the aluminum heads outflowed stock irons by quite a bit but want to be sure thats true and worth doing this.. Also would like the weight savings of aluminum heads! Next question on the heads, what chamber should i get, closed or open? Like i said, currently with the 452's i am right at 9.5:1 and they are open chamber. I see most of the aluminum heads come in several different cc chambers, open or closed. Now the cam..Need to make the most of the higher flowing heads and need help choosing a cam..all ive heard is how the old MP purple cams like i have are good for sound but not the best for performance, so need help picking a better one. As for the gearing, i will probably step up to 3:55 0r 3:91. This thing may or may not see track time but i DO want it to perform! Thank you all for any help! If i had unlimited funds for this, i would get a lighter piston and all but i cant, and luckily the bottom end is fresh still.
 
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mopower440 said:
Back about 17 years ago i built this 440 for my dart. didnt have a lot of money to do it at the time but i started with a low compression 1975 440 out of a new yorker. I wanted to raise the compression some so i found a set of used .030 over sealed power 2355 6 pack pistons. So i took the block and pistons to the machine shop and had the block bored and the pistons pressed onto my LY rods and the rest of the block work done. Had the bone stock 452 heads gone through and had the correct valve springs installed for the MP 284/484 cam i used. SO, i have the .030 over 440 with 9.5:1 compression with the stock unported 452 heads and the 284/484 cam installed 4 degrees advanced at 104. Holley street dominator intake, 1 7/8 fenderwell headers, race prepped thermoquad, 3000 stall and 3.23 gears. It probably doesnt have 1000 miles on the engine build as i drive it just for fun on the weekends sometimes. I want to get more out of it and want to buy some aluminum heads and a better cam. My first choice in heads would be the trick flows but not sure if i will be able to swing those, so question, what about these speed pro, pro max, edelbrock etc..? I would not be able to afford getting them ported so they would just be checked out of the box and then ran as cast. SO, will all of these heads out of the box outflow the 452's enough to be worth doing this? I thought i read somewhere on here or moparts that all the aluminum heads outflowed stock irons by quite a bit but want to be sure thats true and worth doing this.. Next question on the heads, what chamber should i get, closed or open? Like i said, currently with the 452's i am right at 9.5:1 and they are open chamber. I see most of the aluminum heads come in several different cc chambers, open or closed. Now the cam..Need to make the most of the higher flowing heads and need help choosing a cam..all ive heard is how the old MP purple cams like i have are good for sound but not the best for performance, so need help picking a better one. As for the gearing, i will probably step up to 3:55 0r 3:91. This thing may or may not see track time but i DO want it to perform! Thank you all for any help! If i had unlimited funds for this, i would get a lighter piston and all but i cant, and luckily the bottom end is fresh still.
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If you keep the rpm down you should have a good running motor. I would contact Dwayne Porter for heads and cam selection to match your build.

I have a buddy who struggled with detonation even though his specs were similar to what you have, so choose your combination wisely.
 
mopower440 said:
Ive seen them but do they outflow the stock 452 without porting enough to see much of an improvement? also, should i stay open chamber or go closed?
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Check out the Edelbrock E Street heads 1149 for a pair with 30 off from Jegs. 1119 with free shipping better parts. Send them to PRH to be checked out. Or just save up for the trick flows. If its just a street cruiser I'd leave that cam in it. With your shortblock, intake and some decent heads I would think you should be in 450-475 hp range.
 
It means they’re ported on a cnc machining center.

Imo, changing “nothing but the heads” is not going to totally transform the way your car runs.

Figure out what the budget is, and then determine how much of a hp improvement you expect to see from that investment.
Then see if the goals seem realistic for the proposed changes.

It’s unlikely your current combo has “maxed out” the current heads.
As such, it’s unlikely you’ll see the full potential gain out of the new parts.

For example, based on flow numbers alone, a set of TF240’s have the potential to make about 200hp more than the stock heads.
But...... swapping only your stock 452 heads for a set of TF240’s, and changing nothing else....... won’t get you anywhere even close to a 200hp gain(with a mild combo like yours).

The other approach is...... figure out how much power you want to make, and then see if that goal is within the reach of your budget.
 
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PRH said:
It means they’re ported on a cnc machining center.

Imo, changing “nothing but the heads” is not going to totally transform the way your car runs.

Figure out what the budget is, and then determine how much of a hp improvement you expect to see from that investment.
Then see if the goals seem realistic for the proposed changes.

It’s unlikely your current combo has “maxed out” the current heads.
As such, it’s unlikely you’ll see the full potential gain out of the new parts.

For example, based on flow numbers alone, a set of TF240’s have the potential to make about 200hp more than the stock heads.
But...... swapping only your stock 452 heads for a set of TF240’s, and changing nothing else....... won’t get you anywhere even close to a 200hp gain.
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I also want to swap out the cam to take advantage of extra flow from better heads. Looking at IQ52's post about his pops engine that has the same lower end as mine, he did in fact make huge gains with porting and cam changes, then head changes, so im not sure why i wouldnt see nice gains by doing the same thing..? Being i already have a good set of 452 heads, as far as performance, would i be better off sending them to IQ52 to port them, or spending that money on a set of ootb aluminums? Thats why im asking how well ootb aluminums flow compared to stock irons to try and get an idea..I know the aluminums have more potential than irons as far as porting goes, but i have 'heard' that ootb aluminums usually already flow much more than stock irons, but need to make sure that is true..
 
mopower440 said:
I also want to swap out the cam to take advantage of extra flow from better heads. Looking at IQ52's post about his pops engine that has the same lower end as mine, he did in fact make huge gains with porting and cam changes, then head changes, so im not sure why i wouldnt see nice gains by doing the same thing..? Being i already have a good set of 452 heads, as far as performance, would i be better off sending them to IQ52 to port them, or spending that money on a set of ootb aluminums? Thats why im asking how well ootb aluminums flow compared to stock irons to try and get an idea..I know the aluminums have more potential than irons as far as porting goes, but i have 'heard' that ootb aluminums usually already flow much more than stock irons, but need to make sure that is true..
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PRH gave some good advice. You do know he is very respected mopar master head porter and cam specialist.
 
so im not sure why i wouldnt see nice gains by doing the same thing..?
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Jim’s “Pop’s” 440 test starting point was with heads that flowed:

I'm guessing we'll start with a Comp XE285HL and the 346 heads with the stock 2.08/1.74 valves. They're flowing,

.100.............88/59
.200...........164/114
.300...........210/158
.400...........236/194
.500...........259/211
.600...........270/224
.700...........280/234
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(Stock 452’s flow low-220’s)

On an overall combo of:
.030" over 440, 8.9:1 compression, 850 Mighty Demon, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, 1.6:1 Crane Gold Race rocker arms, Comp XE285HL cam, our ported 346 factory iron heads with stock 2.08/1.74 valves.
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Just off the top of my head.....Porting your stock heads to that level, swapping to that cam, swapping to 1.6 rockers, and the required pushrods would be roughly 2k.
That gets you to just under 500hp(like what they saw)....... if your carb is as good as the Mighty Demon 850 they tested with.

A set of fully ported EZ’s flowing in the 350 range will be in the 3k range, not including the other parts required to use them.

My comments about “you” not seeing the same results are based on you saying the TF heads aren’t in your budget.

If you’re paying for upgrades.......and those upgrades include new heads and/or head porting...... 2k doesn’t get you very far in the BBM world these days.
 
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Mine is a .030 over 440 with the same pistons he used and right at 9.5:1 currently with the 88 cc heads. I have a 1050 cfm carb. So im starting with basically the same bottom end and compression ratio, my difference is i have bone stock heads. So from here, i can either pay to have my iron heads ported, OR, use that money for a set of nice aluminum heads but wouldnt be able to afford to port the aluminums. Thats why im asking if any of these aluminum heads ootb outflow the stock unported iron heads enough to warrant buying them instead of porting the irons..I will have around $2500 to put into heads and a better cam. Its been a while since ive messed with this stuff but IF i remember right, everyone used to say not to bother with porting the iron heads because you can buy aluminums that outflow the irons ootb and are lighter. now i know a set of ootb aluminums wont outflow a set of fully ported irons, im asking will the ootb aluminums outflow the stock un-ported irons by enough to warrant buying them rather than spending the money to port the irons..and then that link i put about the CNC ported speedmasters which are $400 more each than the same non CNC heads, so does this mean these heads DO indeed come somewhat ported over the non-CNC heads? Also, i dont HAVE to change the cam, but i have read over and over about how much better their is out there than the MP cams, and if that is true, i would like to get something that will create more power, especially with better flowing heads.
 
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Before you get too excited about those SM heads...... do your homework on them.

The cnc version is ported.

Imo, the choice is clear as to which way to go.

The bottom line is, if you put together a good package, you’ll get good results.
 
PRH said:
Before you get too excited about those SM heads...... do your homework on them.

The cnc version is ported.
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oh im not sold on those or any other one, thats why im here asking for help..lol..all i know about those heads is that apparently they had one heck of a sale that i missed out on and i believe remember seeing that you are better off buying them bare and using better hardware..Like i said, i would LOVE the trickflows, but not sure yet if i can, so thats why im asking about all the rest, speedmaster, promaxx, edelbrock, 440 source, and whatever else is out there..and i also watch the for sale section in case something comes up there, but i need to know more before i do anything, like do i need to stick with open chambers or could i go with the 78 cc closed chambers with my pistons.
 
That link was for a bare head each. No valves,springs or retainers or locks.
 
he did in fact make huge gains with porting and cam changes, then head changes
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The way I read it was........ the final big number with the iron heads came from:
-More porting to the already ported heads
-intake swap
-carb spacer
-roller camshaft
 
ive already got an intake and can add a spacer. So im guessing we need to port the irons and get a roller cam then? And also guessing your answer is NO, ootb aluminum heads do not flow much better without porting than the stock um-ported irons, so take the money i have and just port the irons because going to aluminums WITHOUT porting will not do much over what i have now? Is this correct?
 
Another way to whittle down your choices is to figure out what the cost will be to upgrade all the things you’re planning to replace...... other than the heads themselves.
Then subtract that from your budget, what you have left can be used for the heads.

Is this correct?
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Not if it were my money.

What you want are TF heads.
You just don’t want to spend that much.
So...... the result will basically be....... spending less will result in you getting........ less.

I’ll refer to what I said earlier.
Figure out what the budget is, and then determine how much of a hp improvement you expect to see from that investment.
Then see if the goals seem realistic for the proposed changes.
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Imo, until you do that...... you’re just dealing with abstract “what if’s”.
 
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PRH said:
Another way to whittle down your choices is to figure out what the cost will be to upgrade all the things you’re planning to replace...... other than the heads themselves.
Then subtract that from your budget, what you have left can be used for the heads.
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Just the heads and cam..i would think the biggest power improvement i could make would be the heads and cam wouldnt it?
 
yes but still not having any answer on the heads, i dont know what way to go with the rockers..as of right now they are still stock. If i am going to port the current irons, i guess they will stay stock, but if we go aluminum that requires something different then i can figure that but i still am not quite sure on the head issue..
 
This isnt something im going to do tomorrow, but i want to have a plan put together so i can start working on getting the parts. If its is best to go with the aftermarket heads, i need to figure out if i can do either open or closed and what different options i have so i can be looking for deals or maybe even a good used set..or if im staying iron, i need to be planning the parts for that..also, if staying iron, i have to figure out how to ship the heavy things to a porter without spending more on the shipping than i do on the work on them..
 
mopower440 said:
This isnt something im going to do tomorrow, but i want to have a plan put together so i can start working on getting the parts. If its is best to go with the aftermarket heads, i need to figure out if i can do either open or closed and what different options i have so i can be looking for deals or maybe even a good used set..or if im staying iron, i need to be planning the parts for that..also, if staying iron, i have to figure out how to ship the heavy things to a porter without spending more on the shipping than i do on the work on them..
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I wouldn't even think about porting those iron heads. That is the least cost efficient way to go. What Dwayne is saying research the cost of what you will spend on parts less the heads. Then what you have left you budget for your heads.
 
ok, so if i can swing these trickflows here in the link, without port work, just having them checked, and a better matched cam and rockers, could i expect decent gains over my current combo? I still dont know how much better these would flow the stock irons, no portwork on either..? Also, is my current cam as crappy as many say?
Hughes Engines
 
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You still haven’t answered the question put forth.....
How much more would they have to make to be worth it for you to pull the trigger?

And........Those will require new head bolts, rockers, pushrods.

And the angled plugs may or may not play well with your headers.

As for the heads themselves....... if they’re in you’re budget, they are easily the best bang for the buck.
 
I dont know because no one will answer how much better these would flow than the 452, neither one ported. Normally anytime i bring up porting the irons everyone says dont do it because ootb aluminums will outflow a mid ways port job on irons, but i dont know if this is true, thats why im asking the pros here..Its hard for me to come up with anything. I mean if i have 2000.00 set aside for heads alone, weather it be a new set, or port work, i need to know how close a set of ootb aluminums would be to a set of irons with 2000 worth of port work? Thats the thing, i dont know.. As i said earlier, i 'hear' people say the ootb aluminums outperform stocks with no work by a good bit but i dont even know if thats true,,thats why im here..
 
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