Head and cam selection help for 440

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PRH said:
A couple of years ago they stopped using the powdered metal seats in the E streets.
They now use the same ductile iron seats as the RPM heads.
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That's makes them even more attractive to me. Have the guides checked,pushrod clearance,clean up the valves and seats. Gasket match which is easily done and you would have a good set of heads. Easily capable 500 plus hp. I've been seriously considering getting a pair to have on hand. A pair of Eddy heads 1120 bucks. 440 Source 1000 pr, Trick Flows.. much better head 2100 pr.
 
mopower440 said:
From reading that, it looks like the CNC ported version of the stealths may be pretty good, BUT, In comparison with the trickflows, how do they compare on a performance level? Do the Trickflows still outflow the ported version of the stealths?
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The Trick Flows are most likely still better. Not sure 440 Source still offers that CNC version.
 
Imo, the cam they used in the 440 for that magazine article was too big.
I think the Lunati I recommended would have put up better numbers from top to bottom...... in that particular build.

The ootb Stealths made 15hp/14tq over the bowl blended 915’s.

The cnc Stealths made 57hp/3tq over the ootb Stealths.
*The cnc test also used the Indy single plane intake instead of the m1....... so, not an apples to apples test.
 
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Which Lunati cam did you recommend?

Been where the OP is many times and spent good money chasing my tail and not listening to good advice (my experience).

A couple of options stand out to a poor boy like me.
1) Pull your heads and send them to PRH or call Hensley Racing in Tn(closer to home) for some quality porting and valve enlargement and put a set of 1.6 rockers on it (at least the intake side).

2) Buy a set of Edelbrock heads and have PRH prep/port them for you and go with the same 1.6 rocker setup to get a little more lift out of your cam for the better flow.


Both ways offer a "budget" level of upgraded performance that you will feel.You can always change the cam later if you feel froggy.
 
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496 polara said:
Which Lunati cam did you recommend?

Been where the OP is many times and spent good money chasing my tail and not listening to good advice (my experience).

A couple of options stand out to a poor boy like me.
1) Pull your heads and send them to PRH or call Hensley Racing in Tn(closer to home) for some quality porting and valve enlargement and put a set of 1.6 rockers on it (at least the intake side).

2) Buy a set of Edelbrock heads and have PRH prep/port them for you and go with the same 1.6 rocker setup to get a little more lift out of your cam for the better flow.


Both ways offer a "budget" level of upgraded performance that you will feel.You can always change the cam later if you feel froggy.
Click to expand...

I have seriously thought about sending my heads to PRH because i know they will be bad to the bone then! As far as the cam, all ive heard is how outdated and sucky MP cams are and thats the only reason i figured i needed something newer..? Ive always liked the old MP cams but what do i know..
 
I hope to build one more BB one day and even if I put it in my 75 newport or my truck it would be a blast.Why I bought the set of cnc edelbrock rpm heads here with HS rockers used last summer. Still cheaper than a set of TF heads and all the upgrades to go with.Probably 90% of the performance at 75% of the cost.I have a 4.25 stroke crank that DRAM did not long before he passed to go with it.Press my old ported street dominator intake and Holley HP into service once again.Or the weiand tunnel ram would be redneck gangster out the hood of either car.I have several blocks so just need rods , pistons , camshaft, and a pile of money to pull it off.
 
mopower440 said:
I have seriously thought about sending my heads to PRH because i know they will be bad to the bone then! As far as the cam, all ive heard is how outdated and sucky MP cams are and thats the only reason i figured i needed something newer..? Ive always liked the old MP cams but what do i know..
Click to expand...

I would have no problem putting some 1.6 rockers on that cam and letting her rip.After it is all back together and tuned in you can do a cam swap later and see what the difference is.You might be surprised.Sure you can spend money for a cam that will make more power but I think you have more initial gain in heads/head work and the rockers will help as well.Don't have to tear it all the way down for a head swap.A couple of intake gaskets and your time is all you are out for a cam swap later.Spring selection is important with heads if you plan to upgrade cams later.
 
Which Lunati cam did you recommend?
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Post 35

As for sending the stock heads to me......
That def wouldn’t be my first choice(or tenth choice) for “bang for the buck”.

If the starting point is stock 452 heads, the first step up is buy some porting tools and bowl port them yourself(a few hundred $$)

2nd- Stealths ootb($1000)

3rd- E streets ootb($1200)

4th- Stealths with valve job and bowls blended($1500)

5th- E streets- prepped/blended($1800)

6th- if you need heads better than 5th.... the next logical step is moving up to TF’s.

Depending on how much porting is done, along with correcting any other issues, and shipping iron heads two ways, reworking the stock heads can easily cost (way)over $1000(plus shipping two ways..... over $200)

And for anywhere near $1200 total cost, they won’t be as nice of a bang for the buck as the ootb E streets that are under $1200 with free shipping from Summit.

The “lower cost” option for the stock heads is to find someone local-ish who dabbles with it on the side and just charges less $$/hr to do the work.
If you can get something done for $4-500, and not have to ship them....... that’s probably about the least you’ll spend(other than learning to do them yourself).
 
PRH said:
Post 35

As for sending the stock heads to me......
That def wouldn’t be my first choice(or tenth choice) for “bang for the buck”.

If the starting point is stock 452 heads, the first step up is buy some porting tools and bowl port them yourself(a few hundred $$)

2nd- Stealths ootb($1000)

3rd- E streets ootb($1200)

4th- Stealths with valve job and bowls blended($1500)

5th- E streets- prepped/blended($1800)

6th- if you need heads better than 5th.... the next logical step is moving up to TF’s.

Depending on how much porting is done, along with correcting any other issues, and shipping iron heads two ways, reworking the stock heads can easily cost (way)over $1000(plus shipping two ways..... over $200)

And for anywhere near $1200 total cost, they won’t be as nice of a bang for the buck as the ootb E streets that are under $1200 with free shipping from Summit.

The “lower cost” option for the stock heads is to find someone local-ish who dabbles with it on the side and just charges less $$/hr to do the work.
If you can get something done for $4-500, and not have to ship them....... that’s probably about the least you’ll spend(other than learning to do them yourself).
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PRH, as far as E-heads Prepped and blended, what exactly does that mean, porting or?
 
Blended is just that...... the areas where the machining ends and the casting starts gets “blended” together at the transition points where they meet.
It’s the port openings and bowls.
On Ede BB mopar heads more time is spent on the port openings than the bowls, since that’s where the transitions are the worst.
The “prep” part is: disassembly, sizing the guides, recutting the seats, back cutting the valves, cleaning everything, and reassembly.

Again, if you think they need to be better than that, TF’s will end up costing less.

As far as I’m concerned, the TF240 is the “reference standard” for std port heads.
In ootb form, it offers the best overall balance of flow, fit and finish, and cost.
 
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PRH said:
Blended is just that...... the areas where the machining ends and the casting starts gets “blended” together at the transition points where they meet.
It’s the port openings and bowls.
On Ede BB mopar heads more time is spent on the port openings than the bowls, since that’s where the transitions are the worst.
The “prep” part is: disassembly, sizing the guides, recutting the seats, back cutting the valves, cleaning everything, and reassembly.

Again, if you think they need to be better than that, TF’s will end up costing less.

As far as I’m concerned, the TF240 is the “reference standard” for std port heads.
In ootb form, it offers the best overall balance of flow, fit and finish, and cost.
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Perfect for a nice street build. TF 240 for all out power build. I might add Dwaynes does very nice work. My EZ heads performed as expected.
 
One thing to consider is on any new heads is they should be checked for guide clearance, valves and valve seat run out. Don't be surprised if you need to do a valve job on your new heads no matter what brand.
 
TF 240 for all out power build.
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I wouldn’t consider the TF to be the “best” std port head for an all out build.
Not as they come ootb anyway.

The std port Victor can be ported to flow more, and so can the std port EZ....... but to get there, you’ll have more $$$ into them than the TF heads ootb.
The TF heads can be ported more as well........ but I have no data from my bench to coincide with the time it take to see worthwhile gains, and the costs involved with going that route, and what kinds of improvements can be had(while retaining the std port opening).

Probably the best std port head, as it came ootb, was the 260cc Chapman Stage 6.

Edit: I haven’t done any in several years, but Indy SR’s can also be ported to get into the 340cfm+ range while still retaining the std port opening.
It’s fairly labor intensive, but overall probably not any harder than getting there with the 2nd gen std port Victors.
 
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The bottom line is....... making 500-550hp from a std stroke 440 really isn’t that hard at all.
You just need “enough” of the basics.......
-flow
-compression
-cam
-carb
-intake manifold
-header

That performance level has been achieved from relatively basic combos for over 30 years.
The main difference 30 years ago was, there were no affordable aftermarket performance replacement heads.
So, someone had to rework some iron to get there.
In 1990, my old 9.7:1 448 made 535tq/535hp with mildly ported big valve 906’s(first heads I “ported”), RB SSH-44 cam, Torker 2, 850DP Holley, Hooker 2” headers.
A few years later, after I had bought my first flow bench, I got the chance to test my handy work.
Only about 240cfm.

That combo went low-11’s at 121+@ 3600lbs back in 1991/92.

Now, you can buy way better heads for pretty cheap money.
These days...... as back then....... the combo itself is the most important part of the puzzle.
 
I don't know how the TF240 heads compare with the EZ heads but the shop that does my work built a 4.25 stroke 383 with the 240 heads, out of box and made 760 hp at the crank.
 
PRH said:
The bottom line is....... making 500-550hp from a std stroke 440 really isn’t that hard at all.
You just need “enough” of the basics.......
-flow
-compression
-cam
-carb
-intake manifold
-header

That performance level has been achieved from relatively basic combos for over 30 years.
The main difference 30 years ago was, there were no affordable aftermarket performance replacement heads.
So, someone had to rework some iron to get there.
In 1990, my old 9.7:1 448 made 535tq/535hp with mildly ported big valve 906’s(first heads I “ported”), RB SSH-44 cam, Torker 2, 850DP Holley, Hooker 2” headers.
A few years later, after I had bought my first flow bench, I got the chance to test my handy work.
Only about 240cfm.

That combo went low-11’s at 121+@ 3600lbs back in 1991/92.

Now, you can buy way better heads for pretty cheap money.
These days...... as back then....... the combo itself is the most important part of the puzzle.
Click to expand...

Well thats pretty good going with just .510 lift (1.5's) and that much head flow, very similar hp to what I made weight/mph (10.7@3300/125mph) with heads that flowed a bit more than that although never flowed and that .650" sft...same carb, diff intake, same CR etc....those RB cams worked well I know.
 
PRH said:
The bottom line is....... making 500-550hp from a std stroke 440 really isn’t that hard at all.
You just need “enough” of the basics.......
-flow
-compression
-cam
-carb
-intake manifold
-header

That performance level has been achieved from relatively basic combos for over 30 years.
The main difference 30 years ago was, there were no affordable aftermarket performance replacement heads.
So, someone had to rework some iron to get there.
In 1990, my old 9.7:1 448 made 535tq/535hp with mildly ported big valve 906’s(first heads I “ported”), RB SSH-44 cam, Torker 2, 850DP Holley, Hooker 2” headers.
A few years later, after I had bought my first flow bench, I got the chance to test my handy work.
Only about 240cfm.

That combo went low-11’s at 121+@ 3600lbs back in 1991/92.

Now, you can buy way better heads for pretty cheap money.
These days...... as back then....... the combo itself is the most important part of the puzzle.
Click to expand...

Dwayne, been doing some thinking and need to ask you this as i dont really know. For close to the same money as the TF240 heads, i could buy a 440 source 505 stroker kit..nice new LIGHTWEIGHT and balanced rotating assembly compared to the heavy TRW 2355 piston/cast crank i currently have. I couldnt afford to do both the stroker kit and the TF240 heads at this time, so, wondering, if i built the 440 source 505 and kept the bone stock 452 heads, would this also get me to my 550 horse goal? My GUESS is no because the stock heads couldnt feed the big cubes what it needs but i am not sure..That is a lot more cubes! What do you say on this? Keep heavy bottom end and go with TF240 heads and better cam, or keep stock 452 heads and go with 440 source stroker?
 
mopower440 said:
Dwayne, been doing some thinking and need to ask you this as i dont really know. For close to the same money as the TF240 heads, i could buy a 440 source 505 stroker kit..nice new LIGHTWEIGHT and balanced rotating assembly compared to the heavy TRW 2355 piston/cast crank i currently have. I couldnt afford to do both the stroker kit and the TF240 heads at this time, so, wondering, if i built the 440 source 505 and kept the bone stock 452 heads, would this also get me to my 550 horse goal? My GUESS is no because the stock heads couldnt feed the big cubes what it needs but i am not sure..That is a lot more cubes! What do you say on this? Keep heavy bottom end and go with TF240 heads and better cam, or keep stock 452 heads and go with 440 source stroker?
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I have $4500 in just a shortblock. That doesn't includes cam,lifters, timing gear or oil pump and pan. I had $2200 in parts crank, rods ,pistons, rings and all the bearings. The rest was machine work balancing and assembly.
 
it i built the 440 source 505 and kept the bone stock 452 heads, would this also get me to my 550 horse goal?
Click to expand...

In practical terms...... no.

If it were a “science experiment”, where the goal was to try and make 550hp with stock 452’s on a 505ci build...... and there was a fairly unlimited budget to play with...... then sure...... it’s probably “possible”.
Roller cam, tunnel ram and two carbs, big headers, high compression....... those things would all still work to achieve success within the confines of the science experiment....... even if they aren’t at all practical for an actual street motor.

Built around the concept of a street motor, stock iron heads on a 505 will make a bunch of low end tq, and end up making peak hp at a fairly low rpm...... and as a result of how the curve and math work out....... the hp number will just end up being not very high.
 
PRH said:
In practical terms...... no.

If it were a “science experiment”, where the goal was to try and make 550hp with stock 452’s on a 505ci build...... and there was a fairly unlimited budget to play with...... then sure...... it’s probably “possible”.
Roller cam, tunnel ram and two carbs, big headers, high compression....... those things would all still work to achieve success within the confines of the science experiment....... even if they aren’t at all practical for an actual street motor.

Built around the concept of a street motor, stock iron heads on a 505 will make a bunch of low end tq, and end up making peak hp at a fairly low rpm...... and as a result of how the curve and math work out....... the hp number will just end up being not very high.
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Kinda what i thought but wasnt sure so thought i would ask.
 
If the goal is 550hp, the weight of your pistons in a non-issue.
Spending money there won’t get you any closer to 550hp.

From where you’re at now, the bulk of(all?)the power gains will come from improvements in flow.
 
PRH said:
If the goal is 550hp, the weight of your pistons in a non-issue.
Spending money there won’t get you any closer to 550hp.
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what is the benifit of a light rotating assembly? I know it will rev quicker but i have heard many times that it doesnt really make it faster.. I just remember years ago when i built this thing, several people on moparts ragged on me for using such heavy pistons, and then not rebalancing it..I think hearing all that back then has haunted me..lol..here lately though i have had it out every weekend giving it heck and having fun!
 
mopower440 said:
what is the benifit of a light rotating assembly? I know it will rev quicker but i have heard many times that it doesnt really make it faster.. I just remember years ago when i built this thing, several people on moparts ragged on me for using such heavy pistons, and then not rebalancing it..I think hearing all that back then has haunted me..lol..here lately though i have had it out every weekend giving it heck and having fun!
Click to expand...
That's why all the racers use the cheap heavy **** because it doesn't matter. Apparently you have never heard of parasitic power loss.
 
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