Help Gathering Info on Inherited Motor

[Mpacker]

Hi everyone,

My father passed away last month and he left a few projects laying around. I posted under the welcome aboard area describing some of what I'm going through and hoping to find with some help from this great community.

Here is a link to that post: Mopar Inheritance

My Father had a built 440, but the shop that built it didn't keep any records and could only tell me it won't run on pump gas and will need pistons changed to do so. I found a manilla folder with the following receipts inside of it. I'm not trying to drive at 5000 RPM going 50 mph.

Can someone elaborate on the following technical information and help me determine the best way forward (or backward) with keeping this build alive? I'm no expert, but know a little about cars. Of course my father's death was unexpected, so I am not financially prepared to spend a ton of money to get this dialed in. Any and all advice is appreciated. I know a bit, but have no idea how to tell if the engine has been stroked, bored over, what it's current displacement is if it has been. I'd hope to make this a streetable car. Everything is in storage right now and the motor has never been run.

I'm not sure if I'm in the right / best place for this either and don't know how to "cross-post" so it's seen in multiple threads, so I'll also post this in Big Block Tech and Mopar Performance Issues.

Thanks!


Connecting Rods

Scat Enterprises​

Pro Sport H-Beam, ARP Bolts (7/16”); Rod Length 6.760; Rod Journal 2.374; Wrist Pin 1.094; Big End Width 1.012​

Main Bearing Set

Mahle​

Part #: MS-1039H-10; High performance bearing (partial groove)​

Fel-Pro Valley Pan Gasket

Port Style: Rectangular; Port Height: 2.270; Port Width: 1.230; Blocked heat crossover; 4 facing pieces; .030 thick.​

Clevite Camshaft Bearings

Part #: SH-876S; Stock Cam Bearing oversize; Not grooved​

Ross Racing Pistons

Bore: 4.350; Bore (mm): 110.490; Stroke: 3.750; Engine Stroke Type: Stroked; Rod Length: 6.768; Domed with two valve reliefs; Forged aluminum; Compression height: 2.065; Piston head volume: -14.00cc; Wrist pin style: press-fit or floating; Pin diameter: .990​

Ross Piston Thickness Data​

3.570 – A dimension (for Ross eng. Dept only); 99501 – Ross Job Card / Part Number; GH – Program run by; .200 Deck thickness major front; .297 deck thickness major rear; .185 minimmum thickness under intake valve pocket; .182 minimum thickness under exhaust valve pocket; .272 minimum thickness at top of flat top / dome / dish; .297 minimum thickness of dome at edge on plug side; .185 intake vlave pocket to top ring groove; .169 exhaust valve pocket to top ring groove; .102 side relief; .125 pin hole to side of pin boss; .785 pin engagement in pin bosses (each side)​

Ross Piston Rings

Bore: 4.350; Bore (mm): 110.490; File fit, top ring 1/16 in thick iron; Second ring 1/16in; Oil ring 3/16in​

Mopar Performance Camshaft and Lifters

Part #: P4120663; Adv duration 312/312: Duration @ .050 271/271; In cen 104; Lift .590/.590; O Lap 104; Type – mechanical; Bolt pattern 3​

 

[George Jets]

From my read on your specs looks like .030 over bore. Stock bore is 4.32 your's is 4.35 putting it at .030 over bore.

Stroke looks stock at 3.750

Depending on what year 440 it was, 10.5:1 was normal stock. Looks like you have some high dome pistons there raising the compression ratio somewhere around 11.5:1 maybe more like 12:1

You can lower the compression by putting the thicker aftermarket head gaskets in it. Let's say stock head gaskets are .035 ths compressed, you can put .085 ths head gaskets in giving you a difference of .050 ths, reducing compression ratio and increasing chamber volume.

You have pretty good lift on that performance camshaft too .590 /590 as compared to 1970 stock 440 cam of .450/.458 lift.

Stock 440 cam lift:

Some of the engine specialists will probably chine in here to give you more info on what you have there.

 

[Mpacker]

From my read on your specs looks like .030 over bore. Stock bore is 4.32 your's is 4.35 putting it at .030 over bore.

Stroke looks stock at 3.750
View attachment 1715571391

Depending on what year 440 it was, 10.5:1 was normal stock. Looks like you have some high dome pistons there raising the compression ratio somewhere around 11.5:1 maybe more like 12:1

You can lower the compression by putting the thicker aftermarket head gaskets in it. Let's say stock head gaskets are .035 ths compressed, you can put .085 ths head gaskets in giving you a difference of .050 ths, reducing compression ratio and increasing chamber volume.

You have pretty good lift on that performance camshaft too .590 /590 as compared to 1970 stock 440 cam of .450/.458 lift.

Stock 440 cam lift:
View attachment 1715571390

Some of the engine specialists will probably chine in here to give you more info on what you have there.

Thanks for reaching out! The guy from the shop that built it called it a "hot" cam. He said my dad was going for a mild track motor / one that would scoot down the track, but nothing that would run 9's either. He quoted it as having right at 600hp. Man, if that's true and I could stay anywhere near that and get it to pump gas, I'd be in heaven, haha! I think the cam's RPM range is going to be way too high for street driving though.

 

[George Jets]

Thanks for reaching out! The guy from the shop that built it called it a "hot" cam. He said my dad was going for a mild track motor / one that would scoot down the track, but nothing that would run 9's either. He quoted it as having right at 600hp. Man, if that's true and I could stay anywhere near that and get it to pump gas, I'd be in heaven, haha! I think the cam's RPM range is going to be way too high for street driving though.

Would not be too hard to put a more street manners cam in there like the factory 440 HP cam . . Along with the higher compression it will scoot.

Just pull the front timing cover, valve covers, and intake manifold and swap out the cam with new lifters, go back to a hydraulic cam and lifters. Think there is solid lifters/cam you have in there now that you have to manually adust with a feeler gauge each valve.

 

[George Jets]

Would not be too hard to put a more street manners cam in there like the factory 440 HP cam . . Along with the higher compression it will scoot.

Just pull the front timing cover, valve covers, and intake manifold and swap out the cam with new lifters, go back to a hydraulic cam and lifters. Think there is solid lifters/cam you have in there now that you have to manually adust with a feeler gauge each valve.

Would not need the extreme pressure valve springs in there either then that go with that high lift cam, get a matching set of valve springs to go with the new hydraulic cam. Won't be stressing the valve train so much going back closer to stock, more reliability and less maintenance for a car you want to drive.

 

[George Jets]

Here is the Mopar Performance replacement to the stock "440 HP" cam through Jegs, so yes they are still making them . . cam and hydraulic lifter kits.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Sounds like a DAMN good build for a really hot street/race car.

 

[Mpacker]

Here is the Mopar Performance replacement to the stock "440 HP" cam through Jegs, so yes they are still making them . . cam and hydraulic lifter kits.

View attachment 1715571479

Mat least I know that would be moderately affordable. I hope that only replacing the cam and lifters is a viable option.

 

[Mpacker]

Sounds like a DAMN good build for a really hot street/race car.

Thanks! Do you have any input on how I could get it to be “ok” on the road? I’ve read things about putting aluminum heads on it and water/methanol kits, but I’m pretty sure if I go that route, it would require a pretty gnarly stall and rear end gears, which I don’t want. Hell, I’d want overdrive and A/C on this thing... Maybe on the A/C. Pretty sure I want overdrive though.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Just for kicks I get this;
Static compression ratio of 12:1.
Ica of 80*, elevation 1000ft
Effective stroke is 2.46 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.22:1.
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 164.08 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 144

>I only used 12/1 Scr because that number was mentioned. This would require a total chamber volume of 83cc, so the head chambers themselves would have to be really really small.

>To get the Ica, I used the following
180less[{(312/2 less104)+360}less312]=80

> I got the elevation from WIKI

You should be able to drive that on the street if yur careful; I mean I would at least try it. No you won't need a gnarly TC; the VP is estimated to be 144 so that's just right, and it will pull 3.23s just fine.
I think Rusty nailed it.
I'd put a tiny 4bbl on and try it as is, give Dad some credit.

Just don't try and make it into a tow-truck engine.
Your cooling system is gonna have to be tip-top.

 

[Mpacker]

Just for kicks I get this;
Static compression ratio of 12:1.
Ica of 80*, elevation 1000ft
Effective stroke is 2.46 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.22:1.
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 164.08 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 144

>I only used 12/1 Scr because that number was mentioned. This would require a total chamber volume of 83cc, so the head chambers themselves would have to be really really small.

>To get the Ica, I used the following
180less[{(312/2 less104)+360}less312]=80

> I got the elevation from WIKI

You should be able to drive that on the street if yur careful; I mean I would at least try it. No you won't need a gnarly TC; the VP is estimated to be 144 so that's just right, and it will pull 3.23s just fine.
I think Rusty nailed it.
I'd put a tiny 4bbl on and try it as is, give Dad some credit.

Just don't try and make it into a tow-truck engine.
Your cooling system is gonna have to be tip-top.

Thanks for the advice. He's got a double pumper on there now and was building this with the only intention of going down the track. With the shop that built the motor saying that it'd never run on pump gas, I got worried instantly about the possibility.

So far, that's pretty good news for me! I really hope it's possible to avoid methane/water and all that goes with trying to dull it down.

 

[AJ/FormS]

If you need to "dull it down" that will be a two parter; first the cam has got to go; it's really way to big for a streeter, But then youwill have to simultaneously lower the compression, which in your case is just a matter of milling the pistons down.
But,
If that engine has alloy heads just go out and stand on it lol. Ok wait, first you gotta do a few roll-ons to make sure it doesn't make the death-rattle.

If you can do a compression test, that will tell a lot about the combo.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Compression ratio is NOT the engines enemy.

Uncontrolled combustion in the chamber is, and is usually called detonation, but may be preceded by pre-ignition. These are just fancy words that mean the fire starts before you told it too, like a rebellious child testing your patience.
Your tools against detonation are;
1) lower cylinder pressure. NOT lower compression ratio, they are NOT the same thing
2) increased anti-detonation resistance in the fuel.
3) less heat in the chamber; which could be;
--A) retarded timing
--B) removal of hotspots in the chamber
--C) coolant injection

Which one or combination you use depends on what the engine is detonating in response to.

As to just driving it now and then, the only limiting factors are
1) detonation
2) aka; pinging,
3) aka; can of marbles,
4) aka the rattle of death.
You can control that with your right foot. When you hear it, you simply lift off the gas a bit until it goes away.
Obviously;
you start your morning with fresh hi-test, and
you feed that engine fresh cold air; DO NOT try to force-feed it the HOT underhood air. Then
keep the running temp to 185 or less, at least during your getting acquainted runs. And
then just be conservative on the timing until you get to know all her normal noises. Sneak up on it.
and Disconnect the Vcan for the first few hundred miles.
Tuning might be a beotch tho,lol.

 

[Mpacker]

Compression ratio is NOT the engines enemy.

Uncontrolled combustion in the chamber is, and is usually called detonation, but may be preceded by pre-ignition. These are just fancy words that mean the fire starts before you told it too, like a rebellious child testing your patience.
Your tools against detonation are;
1) lower cylinder pressure. NOT lower compression ratio, they are NOT the same thing
2) increased anti-detonation resistance in the fuel.
3) less heat in the chamber; which could be;
--A) retarded timing
--B) removal of hotspots in the chamber
--C) coolant injection

Which one or combination you use depends on what the engine is detonating in response to.

As to just driving it now and then, the only limiting factors are
1) detonation
2) aka; pinging,
3) aka; can of marbles,
4) aka the rattle of death.
You can control that with your right foot. When you hear it, you simply lift off the gas a bit until it goes away.
Obviously;
you start your morning with fresh hi-test, and
you feed that engine fresh cold air; DO NOT try to force-feed it the HOT underhood air. Then
keep the running temp to 185 or less, at least during your getting acquainted runs. And
then just be conservative on the timing until you get to know all her normal noises. Sneak up on it.
and Disconnect the Vcan for the first few hundred miles.
Tuning might be a beotch tho,lol.

Awesome knowledge. Thanks again! I've been reading like crazy about all this stuff. Not sure if it's doing me more harm than good.

 

[66fs]

Maybe you can mill the piston domes and rebalance if there is enough meat on top. Definately change cams.

 

[oldkimmer]

U could sell the rotating assambly or Sell the motor then do a street friendly build. By the time u change the cam, mill the pistons and rebalance ur half way there. Or change the pistons to something with the same weight then u wouldn’t have to rebalance. With wanting a/c and od this motor is unrealistic. Kim

 

[Mpacker]

U could sell the rotating assambly or Sell the motor then do a street friendly build. By the time u change the cam, mill the pistons and rebalance ur half way there. Or change the pistons to something with the same weight then u wouldn’t have to rebalance. With wanting a/c and od this motor is unrealistic. Kim

Thanks for the response. I'm pretty keen on keeping it, as I'm unsure if the Dart my father had will be salvageable enough to build a full car out of. If anything, I'll keep the motor and put whatever parts in it are necessary. Just trying to find out which parts are definitely necessary.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Just to be clear;
I wouldn't build nor recommend someone build, a combo like that for street use.
Just saying if you want to get to know yur Dad's building skilz, I would run it just for the heck of it.
After you have honored your Father's memory with that monster;
I'm with the guys who recommend to sell it to finance a more streetable powerplant. Not only will you be money ahead, but you can customize your street engine to your street application, which will be waaay more enjoyable in the long run. A weekend blaster with Dad's engine, as you are contemplating, for me, would not be acceptable.

But for myself, I wouldn't run a BB in the first place. With my pedal to the metal/and hope it goes where pointed/SBM driving style; a BB would likely get me in a lot of trouble plenty quick,lol.

 

[Mpacker]

Just to be clear;
I wouldn't build nor recommend someone build, a combo like that for street use.
Just saying if you want to get to know yur Dad's building skilz, I would run it just for the heck of it.
After you have honored your Father's memory with that monster;
I'm with the guys who recommend to sell it to finance a more streetable powerplant. Not only will you be money ahead, but you can customize your street engine to your street application, which will be waaay more enjoyable in the long run. A weekend blaster with Dad's engine, as you are contemplating, for me, would not be acceptable.

But for myself, I wouldn't run a BB in the first place. With my pedal to the metal/and hope it goes where pointed/SBM driving style; a BB would likely get me in a lot of trouble plenty quick,lol.

I’ve heard that it’d be hard to make money off the motor, especially because I don’t have any actual documentation from the shop that built it. I’d really like to keep it and only replace the parts that I have to in order to make it more driveable. I mean, is it impossible to put a slightly exotic BB in your street car? I’m not trying to drive across the country, but if I wanted to head down I-95 about 3 hours, I’d rather not have to rent or borrow a trailer to get it there, you know? Thanks again for your input. Every little bit helps!

 

[66fs]

I’ve heard that it’d be hard to make money off the motor, especially because I don’t have any actual documentation from the shop that built it. I’d really like to keep it and only replace the parts that I have to in order to make it more driveable. I mean, is it impossible to put a slightly exotic BB in your street car? I’m not trying to drive across the country, but if I wanted to head down I-95 about 3 hours, I’d rather not have to rent or borrow a trailer to get it there, you know? Thanks again for your input. Every little bit helps!

Correct. You can try to sell it but I would not hold my breath. Jim at Racer Brown can grind you a smaller mechanical cam. I just got a ST-1 for my 68 Barracuda 383. 226 duration at .050 and .450 lift. Swap pistons, Ditch the Holley, get a Street Demon 750 carb and drop that thing in the Dart. Sell the parts you end up not using on here or eBay. No big deal. Drove my 68 383 anywhere anytime. They will run all day long at 100 mph. I have driven mine cross country with 0 problems.

 

[Mpacker]

Correct. You can try to sell it but I would not hold my breath. Jim at Racer Brown can grind you a smaller mechanical cam. I just got a ST-1 for my 68 Barracuda 383. 226 duration at .050 and .450 lift. Swap pistons, Ditch the Holley, get a Street Demon 750 carb and drop that thing in the Dart. Sell the parts you end up not using on here or eBay. No big deal. Drove my 68 383 anywhere anytime. They will run all day long at 100 mph. I have driven mine cross country with 0 problems.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. I just need to hear enough versions of what I need to do, so I can start reaching out to shops and talking to them about what exactly I'm hoping for. There's a lot of sentimental value in keeping the motor for me. I'd like to find out the most reliable and cost-effective way of doing so.

 

[AJ/FormS]

We DON"T KNOW your exact compression ratio, and
we DON"T KNOW your exact cylinder pressure.
If we did, we could back-estimate the severity of your problem. All we have are these;

Bore: 4.350; Bore (mm): 110.490; Stroke: 3.750; Engine Stroke Type: Stroked; Rod Length: 6.768; Domed with two valve reliefs; Forged aluminum; Compression height: 2.065; Piston head volume: -14.00cc; Wrist pin style: press-fit or floating; Pin diameter: .990

Mopar Performance Camshaft and Lifters

Part #: P4120663; Adv duration 312/312 and 271/271@.050; In cen 104; Lift .590/.590; O Lap 104; Type – mechanical; Bolt pattern 3

So all AJ can tell you is that if you install a smaller cam; the engine will immediately make more cylinder pressure. And more pressure can quickly morph into detonation. Actually in your case, it might only take a few degrees less Ica, to make it undriveable at the new pressure, cuz we have NO STARTING POINT, so we are all just best-guessing.

What we can do is recommend a nice street cam, and then generate the easy compression ratio based on various input factors... like;
Your altitude
the gas you are willing to buy
what trans,TC, and gears you want to run, and what your expectations might be for the finished combo.

In your case, you already have high compression pistons, so milling the tops off is an option.Which as already mentioned, would require a rebalance, and so between those two costs, you are close to the price of new pistons; also already mentioned.
In your case, everything is connected to everything else and there is no easy/cheap solution .............
Except maybe a whiplash/ thumpr type cam,or a variable-duration lifter, or some combination.
But;
until we know where the current cylinder pressure is,
as they say,
we're just spit-balling.

 

[Mpacker]

We DON"T KNOW your exact compression ratio, and
we DON"T KNOW your exact cylinder pressure.
If we did, we could back-estimate the severity of your problem. All we have are these;



So all AJ can tell you is that if you install a smaller cam; the engine will immediately make more cylinder pressure. And more pressure can quickly morph into detonation. Actually in your case, it might only take a few degrees less Ica, to make it undriveable at the new pressure, cuz we have NO STARTING POINT, so we are all just best-guessing.

What we can do is recommend a nice street cam, and then generate the easy compression ratio based on various input factors... like;
Your altitude
the gas you are willing to buy
what trans,TC, and gears you want to run, and what your expectations might be for the finished combo.

In your case, you already have high compression pistons, so milling the tops off is an option.Which as already mentioned, would require a rebalance, and so between those two costs, you are close to the price of new pistons; also already mentioned.
In your case, everything is connected to everything else and there is no easy/cheap solution .............
Except maybe a whiplash/ thumpr type cam,or a variable-duration lifter, or some combination.
But;
until we know where the current cylinder pressure is,
as they say,
we're just spit-balling.

Thanks again for the input. If I ended up going the new pistons route, what all would that entail? Could I keep the heads, crank, valves, etc? Or do they all typically have to "go" with one another. That's the stuff I have no knowledge of. Sounds like a butterfly effect of change that needs to happen regardless of which option I go with. I guess I'll have to take it to a shop and have them run some tests on it. Maybe I should look into designing a build that would get me where I want to be, then seeing where there's manageable overlap between the two?

 

[Mpacker]

Thanks again for everyone's input. I had one last question. The motor is built and has oil in it. It's never been run before. How long can I let it sit on the stand without having to worry about it? I fear that I won't be able to put a motor in a car for several years, realistically..... Any advice on what to do with it in the meantime? Any service I can perform to make sure everything stays coated in oil inside?

 

[oldkimmer]

If it were me I would take it apart. Kim