how does a 318 engine run if timing is off ?

-
22dog22

22dog22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
390
Reaction score
76
Location
northampton ,pa
Have been chancing my tail on my 318 engine not running correctly. Had a well known Mopar engine rebuilder[Wayne Hyrowick] rebuild my engine ,Keith Black #167 pistons, .30 over , Hastings Piston rings, 30 over, Comp Cam 20-223-3 and matching springs, lifters, alum. intake, 4 barrel Holley carb, ITT headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, 904 auto trans., I just looked at the paper work he did in 2014, 10 years ago. car ran fine up until the end of last year. would not want to stay running. Now the engine only has less then 500 miles on it. Thought it was electrical , since my Battery Tender took out my voltage regulator, and I thought it took out my coil because of low power. Have replaced the cheap A/M Pro cam electronic dist. have replaced with Pertronix ignitor II dist. and matching coil. plugs, plug wires, have been replaced, played with spark plug gaps, double/triple checked all grounds, SYSTEM DOES NOT USE A BALLAST RESISTOR, ignition 1 and 2 tied together , I have 9.92 volts in running, 9.5 while cranking, have tried a direct wire from coil + to battery + to make sure of not losing power. Then thought may fuel problem , since I can get the car to start, it will run some what good for 20-30 sec. then it starts to run rough and keeps going down hill, till it will stall out. I also installed a new Holley carb. thing fuel problem, have clear fuel filter, and pressure gauge[6psi] did not help, had old Holley reinstalled and still have the same problem, playing with the timing at the dist. does not make it run any better. Checked for vac. leaks, sprayed carb cleaner intake manifold, carb base, unhooked vac, line to brake booster no leaks. Even opened the gas tank cap thinking vac. so not getting fuel. Someone else was having a running problem that had a post on here , and if he would unhook his voltage reg. the car would run fine, so I also tried that, no change.

My question now is, did some how the timing gear chain jump ?, is some how the gear that drives the dist. not in correctly, if so how could this engine run for almost 500 miles, and not have a problem till now. is there a way to check the dist. gear to make sure it is installed correctly? We have set timing with # 1 top dead center, have rotor at number 1, have triple check firing order.

With out tearing down the engine to check the timing chain, and cam alignment marks to make that is ok, is there a way to check that?

If you want to read more I have a post under any pertronix people .

Just do not know what else to check/try!!!

Pulled a spark plug here is a photo, the ground contact looked black but it is not.

spark plug.jpg
 
Have you brought the engine up to TDC and checked where the rotor is pointing? It's better to diagnose than guess.
 
If it starts and runs good for 20-30 seconds, I doubt it's the timing chain
 
I'll put money on it being a fuel supply issue.
Did the fuel pressure gauge hold steady at 6 psi, or was that just an initial reading? Did the pressure drop just as the engine began to die? It's easy to make the mistake of thinking the pressure drops because of the engine dying, when it could easily be the opposite- the engine is dying as it runs out of fuel.
Check your fuel line from the tank up to the filter. I know, I know- you've got a new filter on it and it's full of fuel. The problem is that if the pump can't draw enough fuel, it won't displace the fuel in the filter. The engine will slowly sputter and die as it empties out the last of the fuel in the carb bowl(s).
An obstruction in the fuel line can cause the pump to empty out the supply line, but still allow enough fuel to pass and refill the line after the engine hasn't run for a few minutes.
To do a quick check, disconnect the fuel line going to the pump inlet, then attach a foot or two long piece of 5/16 fuel hose to the pump and drop the other end into a gallon fuel can. Then fire it up. if it stays running now, you've got a restriction in your fuel supply from the tank. Check the line for kinks or signs of having gotten crushed. Check the rubber connections for deterioration (which can be internal as well as external), ethanol does not play nice with old rubber fuel hose. Heck, just replace it with new hose regardless while you've got it apart. Try to blow air through the fuel line with it disconnected. Internal corrosion can cause blockage. Resist the temptation to blow compressed air backwards through the line with it still hooked to the tank- you could dislodge the fuel sock from the pickup tube and cause other issues.
If it still won't draw fuel out of the tank, it could be a clogged filter sock.
Hopefully you've just got some deteriorated rubber connections, and you'll be back in business.
That's all I've got. Good luck!
 
Sounds like fuel supply issue do what @Professor Fate said.
22dog22 said:
Have been chancing my tail on my 318 engine not running correctly. Had a well known Mopar engine rebuilder[Wayne Hyrowick] rebuild my engine ,Keith Black #167 pistons, .30 over , Hastings Piston rings, 30 over, Comp Cam 20-223-3 and matching springs, lifters, alum. intake, 4 barrel Holley carb, ITT headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, 904 auto trans., I just looked at the paper work he did in 2014, 10 years ago. car ran fine up until the end of last year. would not want to stay running. Now the engine only has less then 500 miles on it. Thought it was electrical , since my Battery Tender took out my voltage regulator, and I thought it took out my coil because of low power. Have replaced the cheap A/M Pro cam electronic dist. have replaced with Pertronix ignitor II dist. and matching coil. plugs, plug wires, have been replaced, played with spark plug gaps, double/triple checked all grounds, SYSTEM DOES NOT USE A BALLAST RESISTOR, ignition 1 and 2 tied together , I have 9.92 volts in running, 9.5 while cranking, have tried a direct wire from coil + to battery + to make sure of not losing power. Then thought may fuel problem , since I can get the car to start, it will run some what good for 20-30 sec. then it starts to run rough and keeps going down hill, till it will stall out. I also installed a new Holley carb. thing fuel problem, have clear fuel filter, and pressure gauge[6psi] did not help, had old Holley reinstalled and still have the same problem, playing with the timing at the dist. does not make it run any better. Checked for vac. leaks, sprayed carb cleaner intake manifold, carb base, unhooked vac, line to brake booster no leaks. Even opened the gas tank cap thinking vac. so not getting fuel. Someone else was having a running problem that had a post on here , and if he would unhook his voltage reg. the car would run fine, so I also tried that, no change.

My question now is, did some how the timing gear chain jump ?, is some how the gear that drives the dist. not in correctly, if so how could this engine run for almost 500 miles, and not have a problem till now. is there a way to check the dist. gear to make sure it is installed correctly? We have set timing with # 1 top dead center, have rotor at number 1, have triple check firing order.

With out tearing down the engine to check the timing chain, and cam alignment marks to make that is ok, is there a way to check that?

If you want to read more I have a post under any pertronix people .

Just do not know what else to check/try!!!

Pulled a spark plug here is a photo, the ground contact looked black but it is not.

View attachment 1716296901
Click to expand...
Also, is that a bad spark plug photo, or is it the POV of a legally blind person.
 
Next time it dies...
On the primary fuel bowl, loosen screws & see if fuel runs out. Have rags ready to soak up fuel.
If a decent amount of fuel runs out, it is not fuel delivery. I think it could be the opposite, flooding...
 
What's up with the short threaded spark plug? Looks like a spark plug for a lawn mower.

Here is what a 318 with stock cast iron heads, park plug looks like.

20240816_091114.jpg



☆☆☆☆☆
 
lawn mower plug.jpg


If you really have that short plug in your engine it should run awful like using those anti-foul plug extensions my buddy had on his oil burning 79 camaro.
 
Last edited:
What year 318? Didn't polys or the 318-3 hd version run different length plugs
 
thank for all of your ideas, I too was leaning towards a fuel problem, but with 2 carbs. and the older unit was a working unit. however, when Professor Fate talked about fuel restriction, I had the local, shop that I take the car to for state inspection replace the hard fuel line from pump to carb with a new line since when I added the in line fuel gauge did not like the way the rubber fuel hose was kinked, anyway the bent in the new tube does not look good, that may be my fuel restriction.

As far as the spark plugs I was told the Champion rj14y was an original style, I did have in NGK gr4gp irantiom plugs that got fouled from this whole mess.

I will look into the fuel line issue , try to clean up the NGK plugs, from the time I had poor ignition the plugs where covered in carbon.
 
22dog22 said:
thank for all of your ideas, I too was leaning towards a fuel problem, but with 2 carbs. and the older unit was a working unit. however, when Professor Fate talked about fuel restriction, I had the local, shop that I take the car to for state inspection replace the hard fuel line from pump to carb with a new line since when I added the in line fuel gauge did not like the way the rubber fuel hose was kinked, anyway the bent in the new tube does not look good, that may be my fuel restriction.

As far as the spark plugs I was told the Champion rj14y was an original style, I did have in NGK gr4gp irantiom plugs that got fouled from this whole mess.

I will look into the fuel line issue , try to clean up the NGK plugs, from the time I had poor ignition the plugs where covered in carbon.
Click to expand...
You have the wrong plugs for starters. Rj14y is not right. Ngk gr4 or gr5 would be more appropriate. I don’t know what heat range and cylinder heads, compression etc. you’re running.
 
4mulas said:
You have the wrong plugs for starters. Rj14y is not right. Ngk gr4 or gr5 would be more appropriate. I don’t know what heat range and cylinder heads, compression etc. you’re running.
Click to expand...
Exactly! RN14YC (new number is 405) is the correct plug for 99% of the 318's on the planet. The R(J)14 Y's are the short reach and the wrong plug.
22dog22 said:
Have been chancing my tail on my 318 engine not running correctly. Had a well known Mopar engine rebuilder[Wayne Hyrowick] rebuild my engine ,Keith Black #167 pistons, .30 over , Hastings Piston rings, 30 over, Comp Cam 20-223-3 and matching springs, lifters, alum. intake, 4 barrel Holley carb, ITT headers, 2 1/2 exhaust, 904 auto trans., I just looked at the paper work he did in 2014, 10 years ago. car ran fine up until the end of last year. would not want to stay running. Now the engine only has less then 500 miles on it. Thought it was electrical , since my Battery Tender took out my voltage regulator, and I thought it took out my coil because of low power. Have replaced the cheap A/M Pro cam electronic dist. have replaced with Pertronix ignitor II dist. and matching coil. plugs, plug wires, have been replaced, played with spark plug gaps, double/triple checked all grounds, SYSTEM DOES NOT USE A BALLAST RESISTOR, ignition 1 and 2 tied together , I have 9.92 volts in running, 9.5 while cranking, have tried a direct wire from coil + to battery + to make sure of not losing power. Then thought may fuel problem , since I can get the car to start, it will run some what good for 20-30 sec. then it starts to run rough and keeps going down hill, till it will stall out. I also installed a new Holley carb. thing fuel problem, have clear fuel filter, and pressure gauge[6psi] did not help, had old Holley reinstalled and still have the same problem, playing with the timing at the dist. does not make it run any better. Checked for vac. leaks, sprayed carb cleaner intake manifold, carb base, unhooked vac, line to brake booster no leaks. Even opened the gas tank cap thinking vac. so not getting fuel. Someone else was having a running problem that had a post on here , and if he would unhook his voltage reg. the car would run fine, so I also tried that, no change.

My question now is, did some how the timing gear chain jump ?, is some how the gear that drives the dist. not in correctly, if so how could this engine run for almost 500 miles, and not have a problem till now. is there a way to check the dist. gear to make sure it is installed correctly? We have set timing with # 1 top dead center, have rotor at number 1, have triple check firing order.

With out tearing down the engine to check the timing chain, and cam alignment marks to make that is ok, is there a way to check that?

If you want to read more I have a post under any pertronix people .

Just do not know what else to check/try!!!

Pulled a spark plug here is a photo, the ground contact looked black but it is not.

View attachment 1716296901
Click to expand...
 
Classic sign of fuel-tank not being vented, and/or, the hard line sucking air.
it's a wonder your engine runs at all with those short-reach lawnmower plugs in it;
LA plugs have always been 3/4" reach, which in the Champion line, carries the prefix "N".
-----------------------------------------------
As for cam-timing, in a 318LA with a stock cam, she actually runs pretty good with an out-of-time cam.... as long as the ignition timing is reasonably close to correct.
-----------------------------------------------
As for your 268/280/110 cam (224/230@050), that's a good cam if your engine has the compression for it. This cam has a generous amount of overlap, and if you exploit it, she will return good torque AND power over the nose; and reasonable fuel economy.
But, if the cam gets too far from an ~108 installed center line; retarded it will give up cylinder pressure and advanced it will give up fuel economy. But it will still run just fine, until it gets to be about one tooth out on the top sprocket. But, that alone is NOT you problem, as others have said.
------------------------------------------
Twenty years ago, I ran a cam nearly identical to yours, in my 367, and it has always been my favorite. I drove it the track once, 3 hours away. She ran [email protected] on 245 street tires with 3.55s, and that was good enough for me. I watched the big dogs for a while, then drove home.
Of all the cams I have had in this 367, it got the best fuel-mileage too, allbeit geared for 65=1600 in overdrive, lol. I toured that combo everywhere.
Sadly, that cam died.
 
Last edited:
22dog22 said:
thank for all of your ideas, I too was leaning towards a fuel problem, but with 2 carbs. and the older unit was a working unit. however, when Professor Fate talked about fuel restriction, I had the local, shop that I take the car to for state inspection replace the hard fuel line from pump to carb with a new line since when I added the in line fuel gauge did not like the way the rubber fuel hose was kinked, anyway the bent in the new tube does not look good, that may be my fuel restriction.

As far as the spark plugs I was told the Champion rj14y was an original style, I did have in NGK gr4gp irantiom plugs that got fouled from this whole mess.

I will look into the fuel line issue , try to clean up the NGK plugs, from the time I had poor ignition the plugs where covered in carbon.
Click to expand...
RN14Y
 
RustyRatRod said:
RN14Y
Click to expand...

I agree but I'd suggest the RC14YC because of the 5/8 hex on the plug.

With iron heads you don't NEED the 5/8 hex but it still is a fair bit nicer than the N series with that big honking 13/16 hex.

EDIT: I was hoping Champion had the common sense God gave a gold fish and they'd drop ALL the N series plugs and just use the C series stuff. That would be a HUGE money savings to the company and they could put more focus on their racing plug line.

I doubt that will ever happen though.
 
I don't believe the RN14Y's are made any more. THey were replaced with the YC's which are copper core and then renumbered to 405's.
 
22dog22 said:
I have 9.92 volts in running, 9.5 while cranking,
Click to expand...
Fix it. You should be aiming for at least 14v or more at idle.

Also if the spark plug doesn't reach far enough into the cylinder it is igniting the mixture at the boundary layer at the chamber wall so its not going to be the best mixture to get the burn started correctly.
 
Last edited:
Clean fluffy carboned up plugs in lacquer thinner & you can re-use them. That is after you find the cause of the carboning-up.
 
Bewy said:
Clean fluffy carboned up plugs in lacquer thinner & you can re-use them. That is after you find the cause of the carboning-up.
Click to expand...
He doesn't have the right plugs so the proper thing to do is pitch them in the trash can.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I agree but I'd suggest the RC14YC because of the 5/8 hex on the plug.

With iron heads you don't NEED the 5/8 hex but it still is a fair bit nicer than the N series with that big honking 13/16 hex.

EDIT: I was hoping Champion had the common sense God gave a gold fish and they'd drop ALL the N series plugs and just use the C series stuff. That would be a HUGE money savings to the company and they could put more focus on their racing plug line.

I doubt that will ever happen though.
Click to expand...
I could have sworn I typed a C on the end. Where'd it go? lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top