Hydraulic clutch set up issue

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challenger57

cuda57
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I recently did a 4spd conversion on my 65 barracuda wit a 360. I am using a Ram clutch 2800 lb. with a Ram hyd. throw out bearing and a Wilwood master cyl. The Wilwood cyl. is the 2nd one, the first one leaked. Both bearing and master cyl. require a 3/4 in. stroke. The tranny shifts fine while not running but as soon as i start the car it no longer shifts. i am only getting about 3/8 in. movement out of the throw out bearing. Could it not be engaging enough. It engages enough to shift out of gear easy but not back in gear. The Ram clutch is a three finger fork. I have a 63 valiant with hyd. set up but a little diff. It has a center force clutch, Ram throw out brg and a tilton master cyl. and a Tremec 5spd I haven't fully tested it. Work in process car. The diff between is the clutch and master cyl. type. The wilwood hose come out the top and the tilton comes out the front. Could that be some of the prob. The exhaust prevents me from using a Z bar set up. I've seen pics of set ups in here using a hyd. cyl mounted to the belhousing and still using throw out fork Would that be better, definetly cheaper. Ram bearing 150.00. Any thoughts appriciated Thanks
 
I am using the set up from chucks classic cars found here
http://www.chucksclassiccars.com/index.php?cruising=products&item=HYC833&category=Specials

Mine still isnt set up yet as of yet. as you can see in the picture attached the slave goes to the fork. On my slave it is about a half an inch higher than the fork. so until i figure out how to get it aligned i wont be getting very far.

at least this should give you an idea of another option as opposed to the TO bearing.

hc3.jpg
 
I`ll throw my .02 in here, if the componets require 3/4 throw and your only getting 3/8, that`s half of what you need. your either lacking capacity, fluid, or air in system. If you can get 10 to .020 feeler between disc and flywheel through a whole revolution, then you got something else going on. All these systems should have a bleeder. good luck
 
i think he made a typo,,,, the master cyl he is using is a 3/4 bore,,,if its a tilton master,,or a wilwood,, same master just a different name stamped on it it is probably a 1 . 1 inch stroke,,and if you push that master to far it will blow the seal and leak,,

i ran a tilton hyd bearing for 10 years,,it was really a nascar bearing designed for GM cars,,with an adapter for mopar,,it really never hard enough travel to work properly,,,and finally gave out,,but wore out my syncros at the same time,,,,

i currently have the same set up as pictured by chucks classics,,with one exception,, i bought the parts seperatly from speed way motors saved over a 100 bucks,, and all i had to do was make my own bracket,,,i mounted the slave cylinder differently,, and it works great,,it uses the factory shifting fork,,and factory style throw out bearing,,,
 
Hi fstfish66, could you post some pictures of your hyd setup? What clutch master cylinder did you use, how did you mount that?
I could PM you if you dont think it should be in this thread..






fstfish66 said:
i think he made a typo,,,, the master cyl he is using is a 3/4 bore,,,if its a tilton master,,or a wilwood,, same master just a different name stamped on it it is probably a 1 . 1 inch stroke,,and if you push that master to far it will blow the seal and leak,,

i ran a tilton hyd bearing for 10 years,,it was really a nascar bearing designed for GM cars,,with an adapter for mopar,,it really never hard enough travel to work properly,,,and finally gave out,,but wore out my syncros at the same time,,,,

i currently have the same set up as pictured by chucks classics,,with one exception,, i bought the parts seperatly from speed way motors saved over a 100 bucks,, and all i had to do was make my own bracket,,,i mounted the slave cylinder differently,, and it works great,,it uses the factory shifting fork,,and factory style throw out bearing,,,
Click to expand...
 
i used a CNC slave i bought at speed way motors .com,,and a wil wood clutch master,, i still have a little trouble getting ion to 1st gear after it warms up,,, i am going to pull out my pedals,,they have a lot of play,, and see if i can cure that problem,, it may take up the needed travel i need its only mynute,,, if it doesnt,, i will drill a hole in the A body fork 1 inch away from the factory orignal linkage hole,, going towards the tranny,, this will be the same as having a shorter fork,,meening more travel quicker,,then adjust my pedal stop,,,,ALWAYS remeber to add a pedal stop on a hyd clutch, so you dont over stroke the master cylinder,, i will post a couple pics,, if u need more ill e mail a file,,thanks hope this helps you,the threaded rod i used is grade 8 stainless

cnc slave cyl on fst fish 001.jpg


cnc slave cyl on fst fish 009.jpg


cnc slave cyl on fst fish 010.jpg


cnc slave cyl on fst fish 011.jpg


cnc slave cyl on fst fish 012.jpg


cnc slave cyl on fst fish 013.jpg


slave cyl heat shield 003.jpg


slave cyl heat shield 004.jpg


slave cyl heat shield 008.jpg


slave cyl heat shield 012.jpg
 
Looks good, but I think I would mount the cylinder to the trans case instead of the chassis, the engine moving in the mounts would seem to effect the engagement, but perhaps not I dunno............
 
Hi There,

So your master cylinder has a 3/4 stroke, and the throw out bearing is supposed to stroke the same distance? Is that what you are saying when you say "require a 3/4 in. stroke". Someone else was mentioning this on this thread as well.. I don't know how much stroke the throw out bearing NEEDS to fully open the clutch properly (that may be important), but the throwout bearing should be doing that minimum, and a little extra for sure. Otherwise you will have a dragging clutch that will not go into gear easily. My thoughts on that...


challenger57 said:
I recently did a 4spd conversion on my 65 barracuda wit a 360. I am using a Ram clutch 2800 lb. with a Ram hyd. throw out bearing and a Wilwood master cyl. The Wilwood cyl. is the 2nd one, the first one leaked. Both bearing and master cyl. require a 3/4 in. stroke. The tranny shifts fine while not running but as soon as i start the car it no longer shifts. i am only getting about 3/8 in. movement out of the throw out bearing. Could it not be engaging enough. It engages enough to shift out of gear easy but not back in gear. The Ram clutch is a three finger fork. I have a 63 valiant with hyd. set up but a little diff. It has a center force clutch, Ram throw out brg and a tilton master cyl. and a Tremec 5spd I haven't fully tested it. Work in process car. The diff between is the clutch and master cyl. type. The wilwood hose come out the top and the tilton comes out the front. Could that be some of the prob. The exhaust prevents me from using a Z bar set up. I've seen pics of set ups in here using a hyd. cyl mounted to the belhousing and still using throw out fork Would that be better, definetly cheaper. Ram bearing 150.00. Any thoughts appriciated Thanks
Click to expand...
 
the slave cyl is mounted at the rear with a heim joint ,mounted in a position that swivels up and down,,and rotates around,,then the front of the slave is mounted with the factory half ball in the fork end,,so i think there is enough movement to prevent binding,,


the master is a 3/4 bore,, and the stroke of the master is either 1 1/4 inch or 1 3/8 inch,, i for get,, wilwood also makes a slave looks just like the one im using but is black,, and costs more,, it is a puller type slave not a pusher,,,


go to speedwaysmotors.com and search the slave cyl and search the wilwood clutch master cyl,,,
 
Hi fstfish66, your setup looks relatively straight forward, and creative too :), I checked out speedway motors, plenty of good stuff that will bolt in or be fabbed in, I am book marking that page. They even have those big high flow air filters with the filter media for a lid..

I was actually referring to Challenger 57, I think he /she started this thread with some issues about a hydraulic clutch setup. Nothing can suck worse than having a nice expensive hydraulic clutch system that wont yeild silky smooth shifts..
 
its just a matter of getting the bugs worked out usually,,pedal pivot positioning or the stroke of the master cylinder are usually the main problems,,
 
Well I am glad I am starting to see some good chim in here. I stand corrected on the bore/ stroke size, the wilwood cyl. has a 3/4 bore and a 1.4" stroke. After speaking with wilwood again they said i needed more fluid volume sooo i got their 1" bore mc with 1.4 stroke. This seems to have solved my shifting issue but created another. Trying to push all that extra fluid through the small braided hose is like/ harder than a z-bar set up. It also makes my firewall flex alot even with a 1/4" back plate under the dash. Next step is to try a larger hose. The ram throw out bearing has 7/8" stroke of which i am now using 3/4" with the larger mc. I'll keep this updated when I finish. And by the way I am a HE. Thanks Mark
 
Speedway is awesome! and they have great prices and service. I got an alignment gauge there for less then the price of one alignment.

Back on topic.
fstfish66: that looks like it has the potential for a lot of flex. That might be part of your problem?

challenger57: What you should do to adjust pedal feel is get the bore size sorted out then adjust the linkage ratios for feel. What kind of pedal setup are you using?
 
The pedal set up is out of an early dart which fit right in. I got a larger dia. hose to try to compensate for the bigger fluid volume. If that doesn't work for me I will be taking out the hyd. throw out bearing and try a stock fork and bearing and use a pull type cyl. It currantly is sooo hard to push it actually bent the part of the pedal where the master cyl. pivots, but it will shift through the gears nicely.
 
challenger57 said:
The pedal set up is out of an early dart which fit right in. I got a larger dia. hose to try to compensate for the bigger fluid volume. If that doesn't work for me I will be taking out the hyd. throw out bearing and try a stock fork and bearing and use a pull type cyl. It currantly is sooo hard to push it actually bent the part of the pedal where the master cyl. pivots, but it will shift through the gears nicely.
Click to expand...

the push rod mount you made attaching the master to the clutch pedal BENT???? man first ive ever heard of this in any ones conversion,,,,any pics??
 
challenger57 said:
The pedal set up is out of an early dart which fit right in. I got a larger dia. hose to try to compensate for the bigger fluid volume. If that doesn't work for me I will be taking out the hyd. throw out bearing and try a stock fork and bearing and use a pull type cyl. It currantly is sooo hard to push it actually bent the part of the pedal where the master cyl. pivots, but it will shift through the gears nicely.
Click to expand...

Are you using the Larger Dia. hose to try to change the pedal pressure? Sorry to tell you but it won't change anything. the pull type is probably the way to go.. If you do decide to change then I might be interested in the old one. Then It can be my problem! :read2:

fstfish66 said:
the push rod mount you made attaching the master to the clutch pedal BENT???? man first ive ever heard of this in any ones conversion,,,,any pics??
Click to expand...

Yeah that doesn't sound good!
 
Well I tried the bigger hose and it was no help, still hard to press. It will get me through the O.C. cruisin week end coming soon, after that I will try a draw cyl. The hyd. throw out cyl is just to much of a pain to deal with when working on hoses. If it were a 1pc. belhousing it would be nearly impossible. For now i plan on keeping both hoses and may try the smaller master cyl when i try the draw cyl. I am using a ram clutch that is rated at 2800 lbs. could that be some of my prob also, wilwood says no, there product can handle it!
 
Um.. yeah. The hose only transfers the fluid the bore sizes are what change the effort. Just like brakes. What are the bore sizes on your cylinders?
 
Not trying to jack the thread, but just thought I would let you know that I am currently in the process of installing the CNC pull slave and wildwood master cylinder in replaceing my z bar... I will take a couple of pictures and let you know how it comes out.
 
Well this is my latest update on hyd. clutch problem. I went to a center force diafram type clutch since they are supposed to be easier to press and did away with the hyd. throw out bearing and went with a draw cyl. I am about to pull what is left of my hair out. Still very hard to press and still wants to bend the tab on the peddle assem. the master cyl. mounts to. Again this is my set up--wilwood master cyl. 1" bore 1.4" stroke, howell draw cyl. 1.375 stroke stock throw out bearing and shorter length fork due to exhaust interferance.
 
some pics of your set up may be helpful,,,are you sure you have a 1 inch bore master cyl ?? i use a wilwood 3/4 bore master,with 1.4 stroke,,and a cnc slave cylinder,,cant remember the slave specs,,you can see that on www.speedwaymotors.com i use a s...ent of your pedal to master linkage,,[/COLOR]
 
Well I finally got it to work, replaced the three finger clutch with a diafram type and changed out the 1 inch bore master cyl. back to the smaller 3/4 bore cyl. Also removed the ram hyd. throw out bearing and used a draw cyl. The hyd. bearing to much of a pain to get the distance set up correctly, plus it had a nick in it and it leaked a drop when pressed in. Just got to bleed all the air out. thanks for everyones input!!!Mark
 
hi all, i ditched my "z" bar when converted to 440ci, did a hydralic clutch using a suburoo unimpresseda master cyl and a southwest speed slave,seemed a good plan as could link the two with flexable hose following whatever route............unlike z bar..........initally i loved it as the z bar heavy but it used to weep and fade in and out then one day blew out leaving me to crawl home in first gear resulting in engine overheating oh thats another story:bootysha:.............anyhoo what i did was this, i sourced a clutch cable from a 70s vauxhall magnum<you could use whatever,i liked this as looked heavy duty>so get this, the ball end of the cable was mounted on a bracket just past the clutch pedal top on bulkhead .............the other threaded end to a bracket just past the clutch fork with the cable running through hole <in bracket> as had to extend clutch fork for leverage..............now when i press the clutch pedal the SLEEVE on cable moves, the inner cable that is achored both ends as a guide and my cable becomes a PUSHER! sounds mad but will list some piccys. gotta be more durable,and if it goes.......just fit your spare once you have decided on cable that works for you! :cheers: first pic=ali box section extended clutch fork,second and third="l"shape bracket attached to clutch pedal top..............

cuda clutch 002.jpg


cuda clutch 003.jpg


cuda clutch 004.jpg
 
the cable idea has always intrested me,,but it might just be me,, i cant make heads or tails out of those pics,,
 
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