Johnson HT-2011 hyd lifters

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mod5v

mod5v

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So I got a set of hydrolic lifters in a package deal withs some cams and stuff any how there are no retainer clips in them. There are markings in the oil grove Johnson ht2011. I have never seen a hyd lifter without the clips so my question is is this normal or did someone remove the clips. I have sum used junk lifters that I could pull the clips from and the lifter body has a groove that the clip could go in.
Lifters look new so I'm going to use them on a used cam I have here in a extreme low dollar 360.
 
Well I just got off the phone with them and they said I my have hylift lifters. but that all there lifters have a retainer on them so I am going to try and put clips in these as it just dosent make sense to me that the parts are free to fall out. and how would you set lifter preload if using adjustable rocker arms if the pistons were not all at the same height.
 
I wouldnt run lifters with wire clips no matter who made them. Is the groove for the retainers wide enough for a snap ring?
 
So the lifters that lunati sold me with the custom racing cam I have been using for the last 3 seasons in my dirt car spinning 6500 twice every lap are unacceptable because they have the wire clips instead of snap rings? Damn I better call them up and ask them why they sold inferior parts.
 
mod5v said:
So the lifters that lunati sold me with the custom racing cam I have been using for the last 3 seasons in my dirt car spinning 6500 twice every lap are unacceptable because they have the wire clips instead of snap rings? Damn I better call them up and ask them why they sold inferior parts.
Click to expand...

Yeah, far as I'm concerned they are. No way in hell will I use them. Knock yourself out.
 
I have two new sets of HT 2011 Johnson lifters and yes they have the wire clips. I'm not a fan of the thin wire clips but they have been used for many a years on about every application you can think of. I have taken engines apart a found some times one will be gone! Or not all the way in the groove.
 
Right Roy. I've never been a fan. Seen engines over revved that bent pushrods "just enough" to allow the plunger push the wire retainer out under pressure and the plunger came out......total catastrophic engine failure over a part that probably cost ten cents. Snap rings for me.
 
Is this what your lifter looks like?

ht2011r-1.jpg


These are the SpeedPro Anti Pump-up lifters...well, originally this is what my machinist picked for me and what I used in my 360 motor. I (as per the mfg instructions) had set them up for 0" (zero) preload...they worked great, but eventually I found out that (most likely due to some valve float) the lifter built enough pressure to actually pop the metal "spring" out...

This is the retaining clip really:

ht2011r-2.jpg


That was enough scare for me to source another lifter...or to better put it, the new updated version of the HT-2011R (R signifies the Anti Pump-Up), which now use a very hard snap-ring:

HT2011R_NEW.jpg
 
M_Body_Coupe said:
That was enough scare for me to source another lifter...or to better put it, the new updated version of the HT-2011R (R signifies the Anti Pump-Up), which now use a very hard snap-ring:

HT2011R_NEW.jpg
Click to expand...

Das wut I'm tawkin bout!
 
M_Body_Coupe said:
Is this what your lifter looks like?

ht2011r-1.jpg


These are the SpeedPro Anti Pump-up lifters...well, originally this is what my machinist picked for me and what I used in my 360 motor. I (as per the mfg instructions) had set them up for 0" (zero) preload...they worked great, but eventually I found out that (most likely due to some valve float) the lifter built enough pressure to actually pop the metal "spring" out...

This is the retaining clip really:

ht2011r-2.jpg


That was enough scare for me to source another lifter...or to better put it, the new updated version of the HT-2011R (R signifies the Anti Pump-Up), which now use a very hard snap-ring:

HT2011R_NEW.jpg
Click to expand...
You had another problem that led to this and snap rings could be insurance against the plungers coming out... but more so would be having the right spring pressures,checking them, and not trying to rev it like a solid.
A lot of failures people talk about having with a particular part usually stem from builder error/neglecting in other areas BUT THEN translate to the reader of such failure/tale as to "NEVER" use this or that part solely based on that it failed and not WHY.
I've personally 'with thousands of other people', 100's of thousands, have had no issues with wire clips coming out. That could be because i use them in applications under 6,000 rpm. Too many people don't take credit for operators error... and too many people say never use this or that. Just because one man is an idiot...doesn't the next will be.
 
While I understand your point, on the flip side, most people will encounter a problem because a problem occurred. Case in point, most of us will run a rev limiter to prevent over revving the engine which save parts from failing. You can't say you can run these type lifters in applications of 6000 RPM or less because you can't plan on something else not failing and getting into trouble. Am I making sense here?
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
You had another problem that led to this and snap rings could be insurance against the plungers coming out... but more so would be having the right spring pressures,checking them, and not trying to rev it like a solid...
Click to expand...

Hmm...interesting take on the situation, because your message certainly reads like I basically haven't followed any of the proper engine assembly processes...which happens NOT to be the case here.

Springs were matched up to the cam. They were checked, valve close & open pressures were verified, all were good. Pushrod length was checked, it was good. The lifters I picked were picked purposely to run with 0 preload and indeed they worked very well. Something did happen to cause valve float (again, only my suspicion, but nothing else upon the teardown suggested otherwise)...it may very well be that with the motor revs going up to 6500-6700 that was just too much for the valve springs...again, I did not spec out these springs for this cam, therefore I really had very little decision to make here.

MOPAROFFICIAL said:
...Too many people don't take credit for operators error... and too many people say never use this or that. Just because one man is an idiot...doesn't the next will be.
Click to expand...

That "idiot" statement in particular doesn't sit well with me at all, poor choice of words on your part. But given that the forum is about information and experience sharing I'll refrain from assessing your suitability for passing judgement.

Anyways, re-read my post pls. I will suggest that given that the very same lifter manufacturer switched to a hard retaining clip design and replaced the very flimsy sheet-metal clips suggests to me that they recognized a failure point in their design and had chosen to address it. Like it or not, in the case of these lifters the new design works better and if that means it has a wider marigin for error...well, that's just great...I am happy to obtain that designed-in insurance for the same price of the old part if anything to prevent problems from occuring over which I had very little control.
 
M_Body_Coupe said:
Hmm...interesting take on the situation, because your message certainly reads like I basically haven't followed any of the proper engine assembly processes...which happens NOT to be the case here.

Springs were matched up to the cam. They were checked, valve close & open pressures were verified, all were good. Pushrod length was checked, it was good. The lifters I picked were picked purposely to run with 0 preload and indeed they worked very well. Something did happen to cause valve float (again, only my suspicion, but nothing else upon the teardown suggested otherwise)...it may very well be that with the motor revs going up to 6500-6700 that was just too much for the valve springs...again, I did not spec out these springs for this cam, therefore I really had very little decision to make here.



That "idiot" statement in particular doesn't sit well with me at all, poor choice of words on your part. But given that the forum is about information and experience sharing I'll refrain from assessing your suitability for passing judgement.

Anyways, re-read my post pls. I will suggest that given that the very same lifter manufacturer switched to a hard retaining clip design and replaced the very flimsy sheet-metal clips suggests to me that they recognized a failure point in their design and had chosen to address it. Like it or not, in the case of these lifters the new design works better and if that means it has a wider marigin for error...well, that's just great...I am happy to obtain that designed-in insurance for the same price of the old part if anything to prevent problems from occuring over which I had very little control.
Click to expand...
Don't take offence where none was intended. When you aren't sure, it's best you don't automatically be offended by what others say based on a misinterpretation of what was said.
The statement was a generalization about people who say never quite a bit without stating the variable whys.
We tend to steer people away from things based on thee assumption them or their builder are inept, meanwhile the part itself is fine for what it was intended for or when used the correct way.
A redesign...yeah many companies have to do this, be it poor design or user/assembler error variables galore....in that instance they call it "idiot proofing" so that they can avoid lawsuits and or smear campaigns about how even though bob over revd the motor to valve float and even bent valves that it's somehow the lifter clips fault that damage occurred.- I believe my point is as valid as the clip redesign though more from the root of the issue...which is the builder and operator a lot of the time. This is not an insult. We have all been that guy before . If we aren't breaking things along the way...then we aren't always learning much.
You say you checked those aforementioned things, but say you had no choice in the springs used. How did you check the seat/open pressures? Did you factor in the springs softening up after a heat cycle? Do you own a rimac?
You admit you had float ...take credit for the over rev, it's ok, it's your creation and it did exactly what you gave it the capability to do...it just didn't have enough for how you drove it. You learned.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
While I understand your point, on the flip side, most people will encounter a problem because a problem occurred. Case in point, most of us will run a rev limiter to prevent over revving the engine which save parts from failing. You can't say you can run these type lifters in applications of 6000 RPM or less because you can't plan on something else not failing and getting into trouble. Am I making sense here?
Click to expand...

Yes i completely agree, though prevention can be a never ending quest. Racing/performance.. its own beast and can be unpredictable. I believe there is an order to things and sometimes a mixed blessing result when things fail. When M_body_coupes lifter cups came out did they keep the bent push rods tight or did the lifter bounce off the cam and wipe out a lobe? That dbl edge sword.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Y...When M_body_coupes lifter cups came out did they keep the bent push rods tight or did the lifter bounce off the cam and wipe out a lobe?....
Click to expand...

So this is where things really do get interesting, here is why.

There were no bent pushrods, no wiped lobes. Because of the design of the retaining clip it was "captured" around the pushrod, so neither it nor the lifter cup itself ever escaped into the motor. This was a great outcome, no damage done beyond the clip being popped out of it's place in the lifter body.

So what happened? Well, partly in reference to your response to my other post, I called the manufacturer to understand if they had any other customer reports of similar issues. Their answer was a "safe" response along the lines of "..we have made some engineering improvements to the lifter cup retaining ring to avoid failures...but racing parts of course do not carry any warranty...", hmm...interesting!

My takeaway from this was: mfg beefed up the clip, having replaced it with a snap-ring. For all I know, while I suspect some valve float occured, given the lack of any other damage either I was extremely lucky, or perhaps the root cause was something entirely different...running that lifter (as per the mfg instructions) at zero pre-load does expose that sheet-metal clip to the full oil pressure the lifter body sees...I run a high volume pump, at 6K that pegs the pressure gauge at about 70-80psi...was that just "enough" to pop that clip out???

I will never know...but the very same lifter with the inner retaining ring has been trouble free.
 
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