low budget bracket racing blues

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540demon

540demon

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ok guys..heres my story.took a bunch of accumulated used parts threw it all together into a lightweight car to do some footbrake bracket racing. went to several test n tune sessions,made some changes here n there...heres where im at now...

concerns: trans always has made a loud whining/howling noise. only makes the noise when its in gear (not in N or P). always shifted well,no noticed slipping, works (or worked)very well.

results: during test and tune sessions car performed very well overall...good enough for me to feel comfortable enough to enter it into its first race 2 days ago. as the air got better (as the day went on) the car kept picking up. figured it was jetted a little rich but didnt wanna change anything during the race. had to learn some topend tactics,and armed with my test and tune info i was able to make it to the final round where we split the payout! very exciting for a first race!
race 2: yesterday went to a different track. the track surface was much better than the day before,and my 60 foot times were VERY close,but my et's went all over the place.instead of getting faster like the day before,the car undialable...up,down,up,down.ended up going out in the 3rd round due to the car running .13 slower than the last pass (but only .01 slower than the pass before that)!
im wondering if ol whiney (727) is giving me up. close 60 foot times-et's all over the place- mph IDENTICAL ON EVERY PASS!
has a deep pan with cooling tubes running front to rear,and a radiator mounted cooler...on the return road i was shutting off the engine and coasting back to the trailer (electric fans and water pump running/cooling the engine). didnt think about it til today...but did i cook the fluid (not pumping with engine shut down?)...so i pulled the stick. it looks fine,but has a very faint burnt smell.
forgot to mention the car shifts itself..im sure it can do it more consistently than i can!

am i cooking the fluid coasting in with the engine shut down?
should i run whiney with new fluid/filter til she comes unglued?
has ol whiney given up its ghost?
does the stupid et's but consistent mph and 60ft's even sound like a trans problem?
input please!!
 
540demon said:
am i cooking the fluid coasting in with the engine shut down? No.
should i run whiney with new fluid/filter til she comes unglued? New fluid might kill it. (new detergent on old clutches)Usually whining in gear but not moving is the pump or converter.
If it has worn planetary gears it will whine when moving.
has ol whiney given up its ghost?
Not yet, but I would'nt want to blow a sprag while racing.
Might take a leg with it.
does the stupid et's but consistent mph and 60ft's even sound like a trans problem?
input please!!
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that it whines, which could be the pump.
If it is indeed the pump, the pressures are low causing some slipping and thereby causing the slight burned smell.
This is theoretical from what you posted of course, but none the less it could be the chain of events that are causing your times to be erratic. (Slipping a bit on the hard accels and therefor erratic times)
 
It could be a tranny issue, I had a silmilar issue with the C4 Ford that I used to race, tranny started whining, and about the same time, et's started going all over the place, tuned out the pump was bad in it, but I had an ingnition problem at the same time so im not totally sure which issue was causing the ET's to be erratic. Similar thing also happened to a good friend of mine with his turbo 400. Not saying that it is definately a trans issue, just saying that based on experience it makes sense that it could be. Maybe go back to the track where you went to the finals, and see if it does it there now, if it does then I would say you may have a tranny issue. Hope this helps.
 
I have been told by some old mopar guys not to put a 727 in nuetral and coast down the return road. They say that when its it nuetral that the bushing in the tailshaft is not getting lubed that it only recieves fluid when the car is in gear.
 
I appreciate you all's input! The whining noise only happens while the car is rolling in gear. Its quiet when its stopped. I dropped the fluid a while ago and there is a small amount of black stuff covering the bottom of the pan. It doesn't seem to be an extremely large amount,but its there. The bands (never touched em before) were way off from their recommended adjustment. Tightened em up,and guess I'll try new fluid/filter this week?

Questions: should there be a drop spacer lowering the filter into this huge pan I got on it?
Would too loose bands cause the slightly burnt fluid and erratic et's?
how bad would it be to run it til the possibly bad planetary grenades?
trying to get all I can outta this thing!!!
 
A few ?
Is the black stuff flakes or a kinda pasty stuff?
Aluminum wear can make black pasty stuff and is normal wear of the aluminum fins in the converter.
Little flakes are fried clutch material.
Whining only while rolling is worn planetary gears.

And yes, if you have a deep pan there should be an extended peice for the filter.
It won't matter that much for now though as the fluid level is the same weather the filter is all the way down in the pan or not (But it should have it at some point)

I'd say if the black stuff is real fine and no flakes you should be ok for awhile as you may have caught the bands soon enough.

The band adjustment could cause both, yes.


540demon said:
I appreciate you all's input! The whining noise only happens while the car is rolling in gear. Its quiet when its stopped. I dropped the fluid a while ago and there is a small amount of black stuff covering the bottom of the pan. It doesn't seem to be an extremely large amount,but its there. The bands (never touched em before) were way off from their recommended adjustment. Tightened em up,and guess I'll try new fluid/filter this week?

Questions: should there be a drop spacer lowering the filter into this huge pan I got on it?
Would too loose bands cause the slightly burnt fluid and erratic et's?
how bad would it be to run it til the possibly bad planetary grenades?
trying to get all I can outta this thing!!!
Click to expand...
 
Ohio Ironhead said:
I have been told by some old mopar guys not to put a 727 in nuetral and coast down the return road. They say that when its it nuetral that the bushing in the tailshaft is not getting lubed that it only recieves fluid when the car is in gear.
Click to expand...


So if, I want to shut off and coast down the return road should I leave it in 1st?? I'm curious, because I usually shut it off in 1st and then slip it into neutral after I shut it off.
 
Sounds like its about rebuild time to me. That said get your hands on a 904 and upgrade that so you can put more power to the ground.
 
I've coasted after a pass in neutral for years and never had a problem. The material you are refering to in the pan sounds like band friction material. And since you said the band adjustment was way off I tend to think that enforces my thinking. If you can find the fine mesh type filter over the felt your money ahead. The felt type would cause a whine and usually worse in reverse when the fluid was strianing to be pulled thru felt. I had brand new ones do that!
 
TrailBeast said:
A few ?
Is the black stuff flakes or a kinda pasty stuff?
Aluminum wear can make black pasty stuff and is normal wear of the aluminum fins in the converter.
Click to expand...
Yes...pasty.there also were a few flakes on top of the filter...very few. I'm positive the thing SHOULD be gone through,but I'd like to get a few more races outta it if possible. I'm not really all that hard on this stuff...maybe these "band-aids " will get me throught.
I'm trying to achieve consistentsy and durability. Its 95% stock stuff...and with the 3.23's its only turning 4700 rpms going through the traps (1/8 mile) . Its also just a low compression 76 360 (90% stock) in front of it. It sounds lame,but crammed into a 79 colt it really is kinda fun!

I certainly do thank you for sharing your knowledge!
 
I guess I'll try to come up with a mesh style filter and filter spacer this week. Any particular fluid/brand recommendations or tricks?
 
It may very well be band material (If it's flakes) otherwise it is normal.
The pressure of the fluid hitting the oposing blades in the converter will wear the aluminum off also cause a black film in the bottom of the pan. (which is normal)
x2 on the coasting in after shut off.
You just flooded that bushing when you ran the car, and theres no way it's going to run dry that fast.
Towing any distance at all would be disastrous though.
I wouldn't tow a TF more more than a few miles with the driveline in.

Good point on the screen filter SG, I had forgotten about those, but he said it only whines when rolling. (couldn't hurt though)


SGBARRACUDA said:
I've coasted after a pass in neutral for years and never had a problem. The material you are refering to in the pan sounds like band friction material. And since you said the band adjustment was way off I tend to think that enforces my thinking. If you can find the fine mesh type filter over the felt your money ahead. The felt type would cause a whine and usually worse in reverse when the fluid was strianing to be pulled thru felt. I had brand new ones do that!
Click to expand...
 
OK, so I will continue my normal coasting procedure after a pass. 540Demon, Hopefully changing the fluid and filter will get you by. Thanks for starting this thread, I learned from it as well.
 
70Dart499 said:
OK, so I will continue my normal coasting procedure after a pass. 540Demon, Hopefully changing the fluid and filter will get you by. Thanks for starting this thread, I learned from it as well.
Click to expand...
I can't thank trailbeast enough for the input....its awesome when more than one of us can learn simultaneously from another! We gotta love this internet stuff!! Thanks again TB! I'm glad I wasn't overthinking the return road thing...we went round Robin on race 1 (3 rounds)and I needed that extra "engine off/cooling" time! Glad we have the option for next time!
 
TrailBeast said:
It may very well be band material (If it's flakes) otherwise it is normal.
The pressure of the fluid hitting the oposing blades in the converter will wear the aluminum off also cause a black film in the bottom of the pan. (which is normal)
x2 on the coasting in after shut off.
You just flooded that bushing when you ran the car, and theres no way it's going to run dry that fast.
Towing any distance at all would be disastrous though.
I wouldn't tow a TF more more than a few miles with the driveline in.

Good point on the screen filter SG, I had forgotten about those, but he said it only whines when rolling. (couldn't hurt though)
Click to expand...

In the old Motors manuals, they had a list of the maximum distance cars could be flat towed with the driveshaft in. The Torqueflites had far and away the longest, I believe 100 miles. I car dollied my Barracuda to the track 4 or 5 times last year, a good 50 miles each way. Trans fluid looks new, still shifts hard.
 
Some of the old TF trans awile back had a rear pump.
Meaning that it was driven off the trans output shaft, so any time the drivline was turning the trans had pump pressure and lubed everything while being towed.
They were the only automatics as far as I know that could be push started.
Push the car, build pump pressure, in drive it would turn the engine over.

Weird now day's.

BBBCUDA said:
In the old Motors manuals, they had a list of the maximum distance cars could be flat towed with the driveshaft in. The Torqueflites had far and away the longest, I believe 100 miles. I car dollied my Barracuda to the track 4 or 5 times last year, a good 50 miles each way. Trans fluid looks new, still shifts hard.
Click to expand...
 
we used to push start my 53 chevy with a poweglide....about 35 mph and drop in gear ...
 
When I was typing that I was thinking there were other makes that had it too, but I was never really a chevy guy.


70aarcuda said:
we used to push start my 53 chevy with a poweglide....about 35 mph and drop in gear ...
Click to expand...
 
OK....how bout this scenario. Lets say I put er back together and go test n tune Saturday....but the trans lays down again. If I were to bring it home and swap it Saturday night (to race Sunday) what brand torque converter should I have on hand to go with? What would be your preferred:
fluid type/brand
Torque converter brand
 
540demon said:
OK....how bout this scenario. Lets say I put er back together and go test n tune Saturday....but the trans lays down again. If I were to bring it home and swap it Saturday night (to race Sunday) what brand torque converter should I have on hand to go with? What would be your preferred:
fluid type/brand
Torque converter brand
Click to expand...

hate to say this..but you do not want to go low budget on a torque converter...

call some of the name brand converter places like ATi ...Turbo Action...
 
Type F gives slightly firmer/quiker shifts.
People could go on for days on the fluid argument, and some will say "NEVER EVER use type F ina a TF" but it does work well.
I (as well as a ton of others) have always run type F.

440outlawdart said:
whats a good fluid for a 727,i just seen someone said type f
Click to expand...
 
You want low budget bracket racing...... Go buy a mid 90s Buick. Drive up to the lights with the shifter in "Drive".

Let that bad boy shift on it's own. Bracket racing is all about consistency, that Buick will run the same damn time, every damn time.

Start stacking up the trophies while the other driver get pissed off.
 
TrailBeast said:
Type F gives slightly firmer/quiker shifts.
People could go on for days on the fluid argument, and some will say "NEVER EVER use type F ina a TF" but it does work well.
I (as well as a ton of others) have always run type F.
Click to expand...

I was told by an old trans guy that type F is stickier, but not as good a lubricant, and that Dextron is a good lubricant, but not as sticky.

Care to guess what those expensive automatic racing fluids are?
 
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