Machine Work Required for Forced Induction

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GoFish

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I'm planning to send a 1976 360 block to the machine shop to prep it for a build to include EFI and a turbo. Any special work need to be done (drilling oil passages or 4-bolt mains, etc.) that I should make the machine shop aware of? This is the first of many questions I'll have as this build-up takes place. Thanks in advance for the help!
 
I always line hone and have the decks squared and milled to the same height. I have seen more than one 360 with unequal height decks. Don't bother with 4 bolt conversions, they make the block weaker. Supply the machine shop with the fasteners that you are going to use, either bolts or studs.


Chuck
 
I agree with 340 Mopar in regards to four bolt mains and studs. Use ARP studs and bring them to the machinist for when he align bores.

Keep in mind what compression ratio you plan on running and how much boost before you go to the machinist too.

You'll want to run forged pistons and they will require more piston to cyl. wall clearance than cast/hyperutectic.
 
:salut: Thanks, guys.

I wouldn't have thought to take my studs to the machinist for align boring. I'll be running 8.5:1 compression, and probably in the 10-15 lbs. of boost range--probably closer to 10. This is going into what will be my daily driver. I don't need a turbo, but I have a sickness that won't let me leave well enough alone. :toothy7:
 
What is your intended horsepower level? What do you have for a budget?
 
Moper asked a good question regarding h.p. level,you may want to think about the cast crank,using hardblock ect. if your really wanting to push the envelope.Regardless of your desired h.p. I would look at a good set of h-beam rods personally,they are inexpensive insurance with forced induction.
 
Honestly, I'm not sure what horsepower to expect. This is my first small block, and my first experience with EFI and a turbo. I would hope that with forced induction, 400 "drivable" hp would be possible. Remember, this will be my daily driver. I'm looking for reliability, 15-20 mpg, and the turbo is just for my ego and to slap the ricers.

My engine budget is flexible, as the car only cost me $200. So far, I've got $3,000 into it in paint. I'm hoping to do brakes, suspension, rearend, etc. for another $3,000. If I can do the engine for under $5,000, I'll have a kick-***, fun daily driver--and a lot cheaper than any new car.

As for internals, forged dish-top pistons, forged rods and crank are all part of the plan. As I said, I'm looking for reliability, so I won't skimp on the engine.
 
I got a price today for a 360 build. This is with 9.5 compression, balanced, cast crank, KB pistons, 284XE Comp Cam, ported heads, gasket matched, 750 Holley Carb with some modifications, decked and I mean done right quality work here. Carb to oil pan, roller rockers, with fly wheel for $4800. The motor would produce 450 to 500 horsepower just on motor. All I would have to do is install the motor and fire it up after I put on some valve covers. I was going stroker but the parts and machine work went flying past $5000 easy! Out of my budget right now. I guess it can be done with forged parts under $5000 but I would have to do some more checking. I would really like the fellow to do the assemble because he is good.
 
I'm using a 72 360 block, if your going to be pushing 10+psi I'd say definatly get a set of H-Beam Rods. Even with a mild build your going to be looking at 500-600+ flywheel hp. If you go with Cometic Head Gaskets they recommend a 50 RA or finer surface on the block/head mating plane. I'm using stock main caps/bolts but if I did it again I might go with a stud kit. I am using an arp head stud kit. Even if you don't go with a stud kit on the mains having them align bored might be a good idea.
As far as pistons go, stay away from Hyperutectic on boosted applications. I'd go forged and think about a quench dome design. Anything you can do to reduce the chance of detonation is a definite plus.
I built a stroker and went with a forged crank..but a good cast crank should hold up below 500rwhp without any worries.
 
Dont take this wrong, but no way will you have a running engine for $5000. Even using ebag parts sourcing and the least expensive EFIs. If you meant $5K into a long block, you're much closer. I wouldnt use a cast crank. So the $300 4" arm deal is out. Forged pistons, good rods, and forged crank, plus machine work, will cost close to $3800 if it's all done the right way. That means a passed sonic test, studded mains, I'd upgrade the caps to 2bolt Programs, align bore/hone, bore/hone cylinders, square deck block, modify the oil system, deburr, clearance, and clean. Internal balancing only. For heads, you'll need a little attention to things like the exh valve material and valve springs (turbo is not a blower....), so add about $2200 for a set of decent aluminums gone thru and upgraded. I would push for head studs. They can be a PITA, but you only have 10 head fasteners. Sothe best is what you need. I like the Cometic idea, but many shops dont have the equipment to get the Ra factor to what they need. 50Ra is not good enough. It's marginal at best, so aim for 30 or finer. The cam should be something spec'd for a turbo. They are unique and you should talk to a few people who do a lot of turbo work to get an idea of what might work for your combo. In any case, I'd think by the time you have a long block minus the intake, using quality stuff that will hold up on the street at the levels you'll reach (400hp is an easy natrually aspirated goal...any boost will push you beyond 500 easy) $5K just gets spent too fast The cheaper way would be a naturally aspirated 408/416 that would equal and exceed the 400rwhp goal, and be about $1300 cheaper, and you wouldnt need the EFI on it. But it would sacrifice soem milage due the carb itself.
 
That means a passed sonic test, studded mains, I'd upgrade the caps to 2bolt Programs, align bore/hone, bore/hone cylinders, square deck block, modify the oil system, deburr, clearance, and clean. Internal balancing only.


This is very important and is the only way I would go. This in itself costs money not counting parts.
 
This is great feedback. Thank you all.

I knew my $5,000 was a lowball estimate on the engine, but I didn't realize that the machine work could be so expensive. Still, I'm in complete agreement that this would be money well spent. And if the engine ends up costing $8,000-$10k, it will still bring the car in under $20k total, be a screamer, and be a hell of alot more fun than all the cookie-cutters on the road.

I really want to go EFI rather than naturally aspirated, as daily driver status makes mileage important. A $1,300 difference in total cost is not a dealbreaker regarding my plan of forced induction.

Back to THIS question regarding block machine work...

Moper, what did you mean by "modify the oil system"? Can you be more specific?

Anyone got a good recommendation for a machine shop in SoCal (preferably in the Los Angeles area) that can do the work as specified by Moper? I'd like to have alternatives to the machine shop recommended by the local Mopar restoration shop.
 
Dont take this wrong, but no way will you have a running engine for $5000. Even using ebag parts sourcing and the least expensive EFIs. If you meant $5K into a long block, you're much closer. I wouldnt use a cast crank. So the $300 4" arm deal is out. Forged pistons, good rods, and forged crank, plus machine work, will cost close to $3800 if it's all done the right way. That means a passed sonic test, studded mains, I'd upgrade the caps to 2bolt Programs, align bore/hone, bore/hone cylinders, square deck block, modify the oil system, deburr, clearance, and clean. Internal balancing only. For heads, you'll need a little attention to things like the exh valve material and valve springs (turbo is not a blower....), so add about $2200 for a set of decent aluminums gone thru and upgraded. I would push for head studs. They can be a PITA, but you only have 10 head fasteners. Sothe best is what you need. I like the Cometic idea, but many shops dont have the equipment to get the Ra factor to what they need. 50Ra is not good enough. It's marginal at best, so aim for 30 or finer. The cam should be something spec'd for a turbo. They are unique and you should talk to a few people who do a lot of turbo work to get an idea of what might work for your combo. In any case, I'd think by the time you have a long block minus the intake, using quality stuff that will hold up on the street at the levels you'll reach (400hp is an easy natrually aspirated goal...any boost will push you beyond 500 easy) $5K just gets spent too fast The cheaper way would be a naturally aspirated 408/416 that would equal and exceed the 400rwhp goal, and be about $1300 cheaper, and you wouldnt need the EFI on it. But it would sacrifice soem milage due the carb itself.

Overkill..A turbo doesnt place stress on internals like other components do.It's actually much safer and less stressfull,as the majority of boost occurs when at 90 degrees of the stroke.The average cylinder pressure is greatly increased in comparison to peak but peak pressure is up by only 20% or so.Even if you double the air fuel mix with a turbo,remember peak pressure is reached when 18 -20% is burned.So only 18 -20 of the extra mix is burned too.Total pressure is that of comp + gas pressure,so it's impossible to double the internal psi.Horsepower levels can be safely doubled without doubling internal loads.Why do you think Chrysler saw fit to put good 70 000 mile warrantee's on thier little 4 banger turbo cars?

A stroker engine will have higher loads than a turbo.Not to mention a turbo engine is much easier to launch than a stroker.Therefore less traction issues and less radical torque converters needed. Yes temp issues and sealing issues need to be dealt with.No different than a stroker.

I do know one fellow who ran a procharger setup on a STOCK junkyard 360 for 3 years at 6 psi.Mind you ,he did blow it up a week after it got cranked to 12 psi...but for an average daily psi of 6 his reliabily was excellent,especially for a stock 360 that had never even been opened excepting a cam swap.

I would say 10 psi on a daily is a bit higher than I would run.Put an adjustable boost control in and run 6-8 daily.Crank it up for the track!
 
Overkill..A turbo doesnt place stress on internals like other components do.It's actually much safer and less stressfull,as the majority of boost occurs when at 90 degrees of the stroke.The average cylinder pressure is greatly increased in comparison to peak but peak pressure is up by only 20% or so.Even if you double the air fuel mix with a turbo,remember peak pressure is reached when 18 -20% is burned.So only 18 -20 of the extra mix is burned too.Total pressure is that of comp + gas pressure,so it's impossible to double the internal psi.Horsepower levels can be safely doubled without doubling internal loads.Why do you think Chrysler saw fit to put good 70 000 mile warrantee's on thier little 4 banger turbo cars?

A stroker engine will have higher loads than a turbo.Not to mention a turbo engine is much easier to launch than a stroker.Therefore less traction issues and less radical torque converters needed. Yes temp issues and sealing issues need to be dealt with.No different than a stroker.

I do know one fellow who ran a procharger setup on a STOCK junkyard 360 for 3 years at 6 psi.Mind you ,he did blow it up a week after it got cranked to 12 psi...but for an average daily psi of 6 his reliabily was excellent,especially for a stock 360 that had never even been opened excepting a cam swap.

I would say 10 psi on a daily is a bit higher than I would run.Put an adjustable boost control in and run 6-8 daily.Crank it up for the track!
I second that ,I have a stock motor is300 lexus with just a 2mm headgasket and i run safe boost at 8psi and it puts out 425 to the wheels.It can be done every cheap.The hard put is making a custom turbo manifold.
 
Over kill is what is needed on the street. What you should be asking about the FWD turbos is how many of them needed that warranty. I worked there. LOTS. And, they had better rods, pistons, and valves/springs. Boost at 90°? The crank "sees" boost as soon as the intake valve is opened. Peak flow will occur about 20° after TDC on the intake stroke, depending on the cam and overlap. There should be little overlap on a turbo cam. Peak leverage is 90°. Not peak boost. Boost in the intake port (meaning from the throttle plate to the back of the intake valve) remains fairly constant once max boost is reached. And that depends on the compressor ratio of the turbo and the size of the engine. Compared to blowers, turbos are easy on parts, but they will develop much more power at the crank, becuase they use very little to drive themselves. Centrifical super chargers are next, because they are pretty limited in size and boost level, and dont place a massive amount of stress on the snout. Some, but not much. A roots type blower is rough on the snout. 6psi is nothing, especially on stock ports. Remember boost is simply the reading of resistance to air flow. So restrictive heads/ports ans small cams will show higher boosts with the same pressure supplied. Plus, that's less stress than 150hp NOS kit, and they are safe on stock cast pistons and rods.

Comparing any V8 to a modern 4 or 6 cylinder (especially import) is like comparing a B-17 to a Leer jet. The cranks in a typical Toyota(Lexus) is as high a quality as a Callies, if not nicer. The blocks are MUCH stronger, and the heads flow on average 20% more than a ported set of big block heads and feed less than 40% of the displacement. The last ported set of WRX heads I saw flowed went 320+cfm, and feed something like 141 cubic inches..(not sure on displacement...lol) I have an aquaintence who used to race blown small block Fords. He now races Nisssans. He has a naturally aspirated SE-R with the Jspec head that has made 295hp to the tires. Thats close to 325hp, from a 2.0L, with no boost. His turbo SR20 engine kept sheering off input shafts, and made close to 500hp to the tires from 2.4L.

As far as oil mods, that's up to your machinist. Find oe that does mopars. I have trouble shot engines from Mopar Engines West, and Speed-O-Motive that had power and/or bearing issues because they didnt get things right. I would find local racers who have had good experiences and find out who did thiers. Sometimes "local" just isn't worth using, and they will tell you if they needed to go further away. I drive an hour and 20 minutes to get to a shop that does the quality I need. There are many others closer.
 
Over kill is what is needed on the street. What you should be asking about the FWD turbos is how many of them needed that warranty. I worked there. LOTS. And, they had better rods, pistons, and valves/springs. Boost at 90°? The crank "sees" boost as soon as the intake valve is opened. Peak flow will occur about 20° after TDC on the intake stroke, depending on the cam and overlap. There should be little overlap on a turbo cam. Peak leverage is 90°. Not peak boost. Boost in the intake port (meaning from the throttle plate to the back of the intake valve) remains fairly constant once max boost is reached. And that depends on the compressor ratio of the turbo and the size of the engine. Compared to blowers, turbos are easy on parts, but they will develop much more power at the crank, becuase they use very little to drive themselves. Centrifical super chargers are next, because they are pretty limited in size and boost level, and dont place a massive amount of stress on the snout. Some, but not much. A roots type blower is rough on the snout. 6psi is nothing, especially on stock ports. Remember boost is simply the reading of resistance to air flow. So restrictive heads/ports ans small cams will show higher boosts with the same pressure supplied. Plus, that's less stress than 150hp NOS kit, and they are safe on stock cast pistons and rods.

Comparing any V8 to a modern 4 or 6 cylinder (especially import) is like comparing a B-17 to a Leer jet. The cranks in a typical Toyota(Lexus) is as high a quality as a Callies, if not nicer. The blocks are MUCH stronger, and the heads flow on average 20% more than a ported set of big block heads and feed less than 40% of the displacement. The last ported set of WRX heads I saw flowed went 320+cfm, and feed something like 141 cubic inches..(not sure on displacement...lol) I have an aquaintence who used to race blown small block Fords. He now races Nisssans. He has a naturally aspirated SE-R with the Jspec head that has made 295hp to the tires. Thats close to 325hp, from a 2.0L, with no boost. His turbo SR20 engine kept sheering off input shafts, and made close to 500hp to the tires from 2.4L.

As far as oil mods, that's up to your machinist. Find oe that does mopars. I have trouble shot engines from Mopar Engines West, and Speed-O-Motive that had power and/or bearing issues because they didnt get things right. I would find local racers who have had good experiences and find out who did thiers. Sometimes "local" just isn't worth using, and they will tell you if they needed to go further away. I drive an hour and 20 minutes to get to a shop that does the quality I need. There are many others closer.

I think you need to read Corky Bells's book.
 
I agree with Moper 100%. One thing I would add is most foreign 4 bangers like Honda, Toyota, Lexus, etc have 5 main bearings so only one rod is isolated between main bearings. V8's have two rods between main bearings. This is huge as far as strength is concerned.

I road raced Hondas in the mid to late 80's and will tell you that the bottom ends are complete overkill from the factory, 5 mains, a main girdle, forged cranks and forged rods with only about a 2.5" stroke. The V8's need a lot more machine work to make them reliable. They are not plug and play with power adders that make some decent HP.


Chuck
 
I MIGHT be able to get away without all the machine work, but my nature is to be safe rather than sorry.

Thanks for the help. I'll be sure to post details (and the cost!) when the block comes back and I start the build-up.

Interesting to hear that Hondas had main girdles...does anyone make a girdle for Mopar small block engines? Now THAT might be overkill. :thumbup:
 
I drive an hour and 20 minutes to get to a shop that does the quality I need. There are many others closer.

Dave who are you using ?


You can skimp on machine work if you feel comfortable with it but I would rather pay once then re-do it when a rods takes a leap out of the block or you split a cylinder.
 
Whoa! The big block girdles from Chenoweth cost $450, so $279 for the Hughes small block girdle sounds like a pretty good deal. Add the ProGram caps with ARP studs and the machining as detailed by Moper and I think I'm set on the bottom end!

I'm pretty new here, but you guys have really been helpful. Cheers!
 
idea/question. if the whole engine and trubo project is to spendy then what if you just did the engine to the the needed specs of a trubo and then added the turbo later? is that not a realistic idea or am sounding really dumb right now?
 
No, you're not dumb, you're just asking a question. That's how we all learn.

The answer is that GoFish would not have much fun with a 8.0:1 or 8.5:1 engine without the turbo.
 
Jaxle, not a dumb question, but Ramcharger is right. I'm planning on 8.5:1 compression. I COULD add the turbo down the road, but the car would be a dog until I do. Luckily, I'm at a point in my life where the money is really not a problem. I don't want to throw money down the drain, mind you, but I'm more than willing to pay what's necessary to do this right. You only live once...
 
Luckily, I'm at a point in my life where the money is really not a problem. You only live once...


Need a brother? :)

Adam- I'm using Gary and Ken at Larry's Auto Machine in North Stoneington. Kenny was one of my guy for years, but he closed his shop last summer. That's where I bought the head equipment from taht you saw in my garage... So now I use Larry's. So far, two LA blocks and one 383 block and absolutley no issues. Plus, he's got in house computerized dyno cell and an SF600. He completely built Tom's (MOPARTS Tom, 800+hp) blower engine too. In fact, it's got my old gear drive on it...lol.
 
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