Need 4-speed Help

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matsucu06

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Need some help w/my 833 4-speed. Bought from a local sawp meet and installed as was. Adjusted clutch shifter rods and fork linakge several times and appears to go into all gears, 1-4 & R. When clutch is let out, car rolls either forward or back slowly. Under load, there's a high pitched squealing and car doesn't move. Planning to yank and begin trouble shooting and don't have much knowledeg of 4-speeds. Any advice?
 
Yes, new flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing... Even adjusted the clutch pedal so lose, at one point, that it wouldn't go into gear. Is there something in the internal workings of the transmission itself that could cause this?
 
I suppose... If the clutch is all properly assembled, it sounds like it's time to pull the trans and crack it open. If you never had it open, it's probably a good idea anyway - just so you know what shape it's in. www.brewersperformance.com will have everything you need.
 
Originally pulled the side plate off to look inside for anything obvious such as missing/ground teeth on gears, excess metal fragments inside casing but other that that, wasn't sure what else to inspect for. The ratcheting check balls fell out and were almost left in the case, but luckily noticed before I closed it up..

This is my first 4-speed and the clutch assembly seemed fairly straight forward, but is there something that I could have overlooked for the clutch to be slipping?

Also, was planning on ordering a rebuild kit from Brewers or Passon, just not sure if there is something else that will be obvious during the rebuild that I should be looking for that would cause the substantial slippage or squealing noise? I have the Mar 04 Mopar Muscle tranny rebuild artical as a reference, but not sure if that along with some common sense and some basic orgaization skills will be enough to trouble shoot or rebuild..

Thanks for all your help!
 
Update:
Pulled the trany and sideplate for a closer look. All the gears and syncros look in good shape and there's different color paint on the gears and shaft that haven't been worn off, so I'm concluding the "Rebuilt" trany may be in good shape.

Before trany was removed, there was a lot of play in the clutch fork adjudtment. With trany removed, there was no play and actually, there was still some pressure on the pressure plate. So, now I'm thinking it was the clutch slipping that was making the squealing noise....

I have a scattersheild w/no inspection cover, so there's no way to check if pressure plate is fully engaging... Can't get a good look through the fork inlet because the header's in the way. Thinking the throw out bearing is binding on the input shaft keeping the pressure plate semi-depressed?

Probably going to reinstall trany with special attention to align input shaft, throw out bearing, and fork. Didn't think this was going to be as complicated as it is, but I guess installing a 120 lb trany using a floor jack by yourself can be tricky...

Any thoughts or helpful hints would be appreciated...
 
I use a couple dowels made from long bolts(heads cut off)screwed into bell housing to help align trans,this way you're not wrestling all the weight,always works for me,also make sure you have the right throwout bearing.Hope this helps
 
Are you sure you have the clutch disc in the proper way? There should have been a tag which read engine side or something like that. Might sound dumb but it could happen.
 
Hey guys,
Thanks for the suggestions. The dowel is a good idea, may keep that in mind for next time. The top 2 threads in the scattershield were slightly cross-threaded, but not all the way through and it was preventing the bolts from being torqued tight. May have been part of my problem. So, I threaded some longer bolts from the inside out and used as a stud...

The clutch plate was labeled "Engine Side," so I believe it was installed correctly. Also, the throw out bearing came w/the Hays pressure plate and clutch disk as a set, so it should be the correct one.

No dumb questions guys... All is fair game and thanks much for the suggestions. Installed and readjusted everything, but will test tomorrow; got too late to start up tonight. With a 3" exhaust, the car it kind of loud, so I try not to annoy the neighbors...
 
blu340dart said:
Are you sure you have the clutch disc in the proper way? There should have been a tag which read engine side or something like that. Might sound dumb but it could happen.
Click to expand...

I still think that it's this. The clutch disc raised area with the springs should face the pressure plate/trans side, check this and assure the disc slides on the splines easily. Is there a pilot bushing in your crankshaft end? if not, that can easily cause it to bind up if the crank recieving end isn't drilled deep enough. I've also had one once that the release bearing shaft was so worn out so much that it would not engage/disengage properly, it was where the fork sat in the bearing shaft collar, try this. Check the clutch fork length too i'm not sure about scattershield lengths, check with the manufacturer if you don't know.I doubt if it's the tranny.
Tom.
 
Hmm... Neglected to check the clutch disk orientation when the trans was out. Fairly sure I installed correctly, but you never know. Both fork and pilot bearing were new and was sealed roller style. Got the scattershield at a swap meet and it looks like a Lakewood, at least it's red and resembles pictures I've seen. Only an SFI approved sticker on unit, but no name listed.

Fired up the car and started to back out of the garage. The clutch grabbed much earlier than before; that was good. However, now it starts to chatter and vibrate af the car starts to move. So, I 'm afraid to fully engage the clutch. Happens in both forward and reverse.

Picked up the flywheel at a swap meet and it was supposed to be new or at least reconditioned. No visible flaws via visual inspection.

So, definitely looks to be clutch and not trans related... Will try and retorque the transmision to scattershield bolts again, but beyond that, not sure what else to try.... Hate to pull the trans again since I rellay didn't do aything besides remove, inspect, and reinstall...

Love the pull of a 4-speed, but didn't think it was going to be this much trouble....
 
What kind of pressure plate you using, finger or 3 arm style? if you inadvertly (hung the clutch), 3 arm style, a centrafugal roller may have slipped down in the arm, causeing T.O. bearing to contact one arm way before other two. but slipping sounds like clutch may be in backwards and keeping plate from fully ingageing. or a whole lot of oil contaminating disc, but you know better than that:-D
 
It's a 3 arm style pressure plate. So, is the "Hung Clutch" describing the first problem I was having (Squeling and slipping) ? With the reinstall, it does feel different this time. As mentioned, can feel the clutch engaging much earlier and firmer...

I guess there's no easy way to check if the clutch disk is in backwards w/o pulling the trans again? As for oil on the disk, should know better, but if there is, any remedy for that other than pulling and degreasing?
 
matsucu06 said:
It's a 3 arm style pressure plate. So, is the "Hung Clutch" describing the first problem I was having (Squeling and slipping) ? With the reinstall, it does feel different this time. As mentioned, can feel the clutch engaging much earlier and firmer...

I guess there's no easy way to check if the clutch disk is in backwards w/o pulling the trans again? As for oil on the disk, should know better, but if there is, any remedy for that other than pulling and degreasing?
Click to expand...
possibly, the roller may be working its way back out. I know its a pain, but id pull the tranny and see what the hells going on. just pull tranny first, use flashlight and see if one or any arms aresticking out further than the others. If so, you`ll have to pull bell and do again. don`t handel clutch disc`s or brake pads with greasy hands. [a given] before installing tranny, use a large cresent wrench as a extension on TO lever and operate, disengage, clutch, and see if its operating smoothly. also check TO bearing sleeve, shaft, make sure its not bent or cracked around flange. replace if so. good luck scratch that test, tranny will need to be installed to check for action, looking through clutch fork hole. you stated header in way. enough room for mirror and light?
 
Here's a question from an experienced former scattershield owner. When you bought the bellhousing at the swap meet did it also include the block protection plate? It should be a flat plate that installs before the flywheel to protect the block in case of a clutch failure/explosion. I would say if the clutch chatters then most likely either your flywheel needs turned or your pressure plate is worn. I believe you said the pressure plate and disc were new but you bought the flywheel used. After you install everything and are trying to adjust the clutch pedal you should have 1" of pedal free play in the car. It sucks you are so far away as I would really like to come over and help you out as I have had several 4 speed cars and lots of floor time with said cars::-D Here's another thought, first what motor are you working with? Second is the crankshaft drilled for a 4 speed? And third did you install a pilot bushing in the crankshaft for the transmission imput shaft? No bushing will lead to vibration and ultimately transmission failure as the imput shaft will just flop around inside of the crankshaft-dont ask me how I know this!!
 
mopar head - I think I misunderstood your Hung Clutch issue. While the trans was out last time, I did inspect the pressure plate to see how the TO bearing contacted the 3 prongs. All prongs were evenly disengaged, so may not be that. I thought you were referring to the TO bearing being wedged in at an angle and bypassing 1 or 2 of the 3 prongs... Oh, I did inspect the TO bearing operation including proper fit and movement on the trans output shaft. What I didn't inspect was the clutch disk being installed the proper way or if any oil dripped down from the valve covers from the many attempts to adjust the valves. Was pretty careful to keep the clutch disk clean during the entire installation process... May try your light and mirror inspection method before trans removal.

blu340dart - Yes, SC came w/plate and pressure plate is new. Dreading the thought of the chatter being the flywheel because that would mean I need to pull the trans and SC this time.... ARG!! But, might be inevitable. Would there have been any obvious visual sings of a flywheel needing to be resurfaced? Would it have been visible to a visual inspection? Can you tell I'm trying to eliminate all possible things before concluding I need to remove the trans and SC again???

Appreciate the sentiments of providing help... It's not fun doing this with the car on jack stands and a floor jack on your own. Plus, I'm all whiny because we're having cold weather and it's 45 degrees in the garage here in Nothern Cal. I'm sure it's much colder on your part of the country. BTW, the block is a 340 with a 4" Stroker steel Ohio Crank and a newly installed sealed roller pilot bushing/bearing. So, should be okay...

Thanks for all the help guys. I think the only other thing I may have eluded to earlier was the two top bolts that connect the trans to the SC were cross-threaded and we not torqued tight the first time. I inserted bolts from the inside of the SC outward and are now acting as studs. So, I'll try and retorque all four of the bolts again to ensure the trans is secured to the SC and think of other possibilities before tackling the inevitable....
 
I've haven 't worked on a manual tranny in years, but... I'll look at it this way.. Does the noise occur from the clutch, throw out bearing, or pilot bearing?.. I remember it was very hard to install a tranny without a pilot dowel to align the clutch disc with the pilot bearing (new?)... Sounds to me like an alignment issue or spacing with the bell housing (tranny in out too far?)... I would guess the noise is not from the tranny (unless it's got a real bad bearing problem)... So, the time when the noise or issue occurs will help you locate the problem... With the clutch released (foot off the pedal) and the car in nuetral, does it make any noise (this means you clutch disc is engaged with the pressure plate, and rotating as is the tranny input shaft).. When you push the clutch pedal in now the clutch should stop moving along with the tranny input shaft and you should be able to put it into a gear with out trouble... Grease or oil on the clutch would cause it to chatter or not engage smoothly during acceleration (as other would other problems from warped, overheated pressure plate or flywheel)... That shouldn't cause any squealing.. I hope this will help... Good luck... I found that with this forum people will give you the bits and pieces to your puzzle and you'll put it together...
 
67DART340 - Intitally, the sqealing noise seemed to be coming from the tranny. The squealing happened witht he clutch pedal fully released. After removing, visually inspecting the pressure plate, TO bearing, internal gears via the side coaver, and reinstalling the everything, now, the clutch seems to engage earlier and firmer (Can feel more resistance from the pressure plate), there is a really bad chatter from what seems to be the transmission. But, hard to tell since I haven't let the clutch pedal all the way out for fear of something exploding. Probably won't happen, but it shutters pretty hard. Plus car is in the garage and don't want to risk backing down the slope of the driveway in case I can't get it back up the driveway.

Most people from this forum with what I've read provide some very good and helpful hints. I think like any complex problem solving, it's hard to provide a complete and comprehensive answer unless all of the symtoms are disclosed... Besides, puzzle pieces are more fun and seems like problem sloving is part of what us car guys like anyway...

I've really learned a lot from all the memebers which is why I decided to join recently and can hopefully provide some helpful input in return one of these days...
 
When I installed my Lakewood scatshield,it came with an adapter ring for where the tranny fits in the bell housing.You mentioned you picked it up at a swapmeet.Just wondering if you got the adapter ring with it?This could mean your tranny is not properly lined up causing shuttering,vibration.Just my 2 cents.Good Luck!!Don,t you just love the tiny fork hole?
 
pettybludart - Yes, it came w/the adapter ring and it came off w/the trans on the most recent removal. So, this past installation, I left it on the trans and watched to see if it was inserted/aligned correctly into the scattershield (SS) hole. Good thought though...

Yeah, just tried retorquing the four trans to SS bolts again and peeking through the fork hole at the clutch disk; no luck. Will probably need to pick up one of those telescoping mirrors to get a better look inside. But, I guess the small fork hole would make sense based on the purpose of the SS. Although... it would be nice to have an inspection cover, but that would probably add cost...

Looking more and more like this weekend is going to include another trans removal. I really hate doing things mulitple times if i can be avoided.....
 
FYI- the flywheel should have had like a pattern that are semicircles coming from the center out(the best I could describe it) if it was turned.
On 3 finger clutches, its good to have an inspection cover to get the 5/32" spacing between the TO bearing and the fingers.
 
Well in response to the puzzle part, thats all we can do for each other when we all are so far away from our friends in need and cant just come over to lend a hand,but at least with the internet we do have the advantage over the old days when all we had was 1 or 2 people who could help. I would say now that you have chosen to remove it maybe just pull the flywheel and have it cleaned up, degrease if need be the disc and inspect all other components for any cracks, such as in the bearing retainer in which the throwout bearing rides. Then put it all back together methodically and see how that goes. While you have it apart and before installation maybe invest in one of those clutch alignment tools. When I was doing my 4 speed cars I had the privlege of having an extra imput shaft for that duty. Good luck and keep us informed. Greg
 
redfastback - Yeah, I think I understand the resurfacing marks you described. Picked up the flywheel from the Mopar Alley sway meet at Ohlone College in 07 and thought it was new, but now that I think back, it may have just been cleaned and not resurfaced... Oh well, live and learn. Will have to check the TO and PP finger clearance with a mirror next time through the fork hole...

blu340dart - Fully agree. The internet, sites, and forums like FABO are outstanding mediums to chat w/folks that we wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity; we are truly fortunate in this regard. I do have an alignmnet tool that came with the Hays clutch kit. It's not the best, but does seem to do the job since a quick turn of the tailshaft aligned the splines...

Will post a conclusion once it's up and working. With the removal, potential flywheel resurface work at the local machine shop, and reinstallation, will probably take about 3 weeks... Stay tuned and thanks again for everyone help and input!!
 
Sounds like the tranny input shaft might be having alignment problems with the pilot bearing... Just a guess, not being there...
 
67DART340 - Just trying to clarify.. Is there any way to tell if there in an input hsaft/PB alignment problem? Thinking if there was, would the trans be able to mate up flush with the scatter shield?

Again, not questioning your idea, just trying to clarify.. thanks
 
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