Oil line plug/ low oil pressure on cold starts

[65barracudaLA]

I have an issue with low oil pressure during cold starts like you can see and hear in the video. It's ok when warm. It's a stock 318 within unknown history from craigslist. The engine is pretty clean inside, but I have no idea if it has been rebuilt. New oil pump, pickup, lifters, pushrods and I've tried different oils and filters. Someone suggested to check for oil galley plugs - specifically the one by the distributor and the one down the oil pressure sender hole. The one by the distributor is there and I checked the depth of the other and it's off by an 1/8" of an inch. It's supposed to be between 7-1/2" and 7-11/16" and it's 7-13/16". Has anyone had this issue? Could 1/8" make that much difference?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Trust me. The plugs are in place. You'd dang well know if they weren't. Can you describe the pan to pickup position? The pickup is supposed to be an interference fit with the bottom of the pan when the pan is assembled. in other words, the pickup is supposed to be touching the bottom of the pan. That's how it's designed. Other than that, you probably have some bearings with some normal wear. It's not a terribly long time before it gets pressure, but it take a few seconds, doesn't it?

 

[Dana67Dart]

That does not look at all odd.

If you run it till warm and the shut it off for an hour then restart does it do the same?

 

[69FBCuda]

Have you installed a new oil pressure sensor or checked it with a mechanical guage? Thats not a slow response but I personally would want to know rhe psi.

 

[Inertia]

Are you running synthetic oil, if so try dino oil, 10/40 or in Ca. summer 20/50.
Good luck

 

[65barracudaLA]

Trust me. The plugs are in place. You'd dang well know if they weren't. Can you describe the pan to pickup position? The pickup is supposed to be an interference fit with the bottom of the pan when the pan is assembled. in other words, the pickup is supposed to be touching the bottom of the pan. That's how it's designed. Other than that, you probably have some bearings with some normal wear. It's not a terribly long time before it gets pressure, but it take a few seconds, doesn't it?

I made sure the pickup is touching the pan. It does take a few seconds to build pressure, but what worries me is the clacking that you can hear in the video.

 

[65barracudaLA]

That does not look at all odd.

If you run it till warm and the shut it off for an hour then restart does it do the same?

It's not an issue when it's warm.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Have you installed a new oil pressure sensor or checked it with a mechanical guage? Thats not a slow response but I personally would want to know rhe psi.

I did install a gauge and it shoots up to 60 psi at the same time the dummy light turns off and the clacking stops.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Are you running synthetic oil, if so try dino oil, 10/40 or in Ca. summer 20/50.
Good luck

Thanks. Never ran synthetic, I tried 10w30 or 10w40 and currently running 15w40 rotella.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I wouldn't run 15/40. I'd stick with 10/30.

 

[Mattax]

I wouldn't run 15/40. I'd stick with 10/30.

Exactly.
If anything, on a cold start one wants a lower 'W' grade and a lower pour point. Same for any time an engine is used for a lot of short drives where the oil doesn't get up to temperature.

I'd also be looking in the used filter to see if the anti-drainback 'valve' was blown back or in some other ways has failed.

Clacking on a hydraulic lifter says to me they're not getting filled right away.

 

[Mattax]

Oil viscosity at starting and even warm up is much much higher than at full operating termpertures.

When the oil is thick, the pump can push harder, but the additional pressure is not getting more flow to the top.

What happens to an engine during a cold start in sub-zero temperatures?

Here's What Engine Oil Looks Like During A Sub-Zero Temperature Cold Start

www.forabodiesonly.com

A 5W-30 will flow better cold, and flow the same at intended operating temps as a 10W-30, especially if its from the same company and product line.
A synthetic will usually flow better cold than the equivalent conventional.

 

[Inertia]

There was someone here promoted a lifter that was slow to pump, and for some reason to add or delete duration, I never did understand .
"Rhoads" lifters or similar, is it possible these could be those ?
Could just be lifters .
jmo

 

[Mattax]

There was someone here promoted a lifter that was slow to pump, and for some reason to add or delete duration, I never did understand .
"Rhoads" lifters or similar, is it possible these could be those ?
Could just be lifters .
jmo

I've run Rhoads. They can be a little noisier, not ust at start up. A couple other companies made similar lifters. One, I forget which one, claimed to be quieter.
The idea is they bleed down quicker to reduce duration and therefore overlap. As rpm increases the less they bleed down. Neat trick and it does work to some extent.

 

[65barracudaLA]

The lifters are Lunati Micro-Trols. When I installed them, one of them didn't pump up and I replace it with a new one. Yesterday I noticed that another one wasn't pumping up. The cold start issue has been essentially the same since I fired the engine up in the car for the first time. However, I just noticed a smallish coolant leak coming from the intake and found some coolant in the oil - not a lot and definitely not completely milkshaked. I drained the oil and it looked ok. So now I'm going to pull the intake to fix the coolant leak. Lunati apparently is not making lifters anymore, so I will have to fix it. They have snap rings, but my crappy snap ring pliers won't grip them, so I'll need better ones. I will try 5W30 oil and maybe even synthetic. I don't even want to ask this question, but any thoughts on something like the Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer? I will need something with ZDDP though, right? Any recommendations?

 

[Mattax]

Stock 318 with high rpm lifters. Gotta ask what is going on?
If this 318 has been worked, then I don't know if those lifters are needed but as far ZDDP, I'd want a minimum of 800 ppm for stock cam, and maybe a bit higher, more like 1200 ppm if the valve spring pressures are high for a more aggressive cam. So if the oil you're using is has that in the additive package there's no reason to add more. Save your money. Oil is expensive enough these days.

 

[65barracudaLA]

The lifters were probably overkill... I had heard so much about crappy lifter quality that I wanted something that lasts. Didn't necessarily help I guess. As far as I know it's a stock cam and stock springs. It's a daily driver and not a race car. I already took the intake off to fix the coolant leak, so now I will probably take each of the lifters apart, clean and inspect them. I was under the impression hydraulic flat tappets needed 1200 ppm ZDDP, but good to know that a stock engine will only need 800.

 

[Mattax]

From the sources used in the articles linked below, the engineering studies did not find an increase in wear even at the lower concentrations tested. Even 800 ppm ZDDP antiwear package is better than these engine generally got when new. Once we get into high spring pressures for high lift cams, then I think its best to consider the 1200 ppm as the minumum. In my cammed 340 I'm using Brad-Penn (I think its been renamed) 5W-30. You could use their oil as your car has no cats. In my stock rebuild AMC Wagoneer I used Ford Superduty 10W-30 for Diesel Powerstroke because it is a conventional oil with decent ZDDP level. Then switched to Fords 5W-30 semi-synthetic that has just about 800 ppm. But the Wagoneer has a cat so I wanted to go for enough but not too much. But you use what can find convenietly in your price range. Its just getting more difficult to find oils like these on the shelf.

Widman has an excellent overview of engine oil.
Grant's review focused more on history of ZDDP.
Both cite and quote primary sources relating to negative aspects of long term use of zddp above 1500, particularly these two:

“Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type”
Loren G. Pless, John J. Rodgers, Fuel & Lubricants Dept., Research Labs, General Motors Corp. SAE Report 770087, 1977

“How Much ZDP is Enough?” R.M. Olree, (GM Powertrain),M.L. McMillan (GM R&D) SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-2986, October 2004

Grant and Widman's articles are directly hot linked to pdfs.
The SAE papers cited are available only to members or by purchase. Probably also available at most engineering college libraries.

This post on IFSJA has a couple snips of an article from Engine Professional magazine. Apparently the stuff comes in three forms.
International Full Size Jeep Association - View Single Post - Our older engines and newer oil is not a good mix


Hopefully someone else can provide some more insight into those Lunati lifters.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Got some better snap ring pliers and took that extra lifter I had already replaced apart. Definitely had some dirt in it - no chunks, though. I think I'm going to take them all apart and clean them. I assume that dirt gets in between the bore and the inner piston and that gets them stuck?! I hope it's the last time the intake came off...

I've been looking for an oil with at least 800 ppm of ZDDP. It appears it's not listed as ZDDP, but rather as Zinc and Phosphorus separately. One oil I can get locally for about 37 bucks is the Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic 5W-30. It's got 830 ppm Zinc and 730 ppm Phosphorus. By the way, the Brad Penn oil has been renamed PennGrade1, but it's not available nearby and also quite pricey.

 

[65barracudaLA]

Update:

I cleaned took apart and cleaned all the lifters and filled the engine with the 5W-30 full synthetic oil. There's still a hint of a tick on cold starts and still takes a moment until it builds oil pressure, but it's quite the improvement! Thanks @Mattax, the thinner oil was great advice and the Winnie The Pooh gif really helped me understand haha. Not sure what you can expect from a Craigslist engine and it might be just that, but the slant 6 that was in there before (80s slant also with hydraulic lifters) didn't really care much about whatever oil was used. Anyways, it's running really well now!