ok it runs but poorly??

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prestigue

318v6
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thank you to all that posted on helping me finally get my Dart running. Now I have it running I have yet again another problem. it runs a bit rough. smells kinda rich. another problem I am having is, when you are driving, it runs well untill about 1/4 and more throttle. then it bogs and wont come out of it. running really rich. I have new cap, points, rotor, condensor, wires, plugs. I have a new Holley street dominator single plane intake. a 1" spacer/adaptor, and a 1406 Eldebrock carb. My old 318 had 3 cyl dead and had more acceleration than this. the guy that built the engine said that the Holley single plane intake would be to much for the engine. I am wondering if that is not the case. I have a 197? stock 4bbl intake here, and was wondering if anyone else has had this problem. If the intake is to much then I can swap out to the stock 4bbl intake and see if that works.
 
the intake isnt the problem. from what i read.. 1/4 throttle and it bogs. does it idle good? if yes then it sounds like a plugged fuel filter/not enough fuel. if you had too much fuel up to 1/4 throttle the motor would flood and die
 
it will idle all day long, but it is kinda rough. like the carb is out of tune. turned the idle jet in till it about died, then out. I ended up with 1/4 turn out from closed on both sides. if I mat it to the floor, it sounds like it is sucking the air cleaner through the carb, but engine RPM is slow to rise. I will change fuel filter in the morning and see if that helps. may change to a low performance electric pump as well. I will give it a try and see if I can make it better. thanks for the help
 
Where do you live? If someone on here is close they would be of alot more help in person and I'm sure they would give you a hand.
 
I guess I haven't been following your saga too close, but I'll throw out my standard load of marginally useful BS. Here are a few places to start looking.

New 1406 eh? These tend to be somewhat lean if anything, but generally pretty close right out of the box. Verify your float levels, they're not always right on new carb, everything else is cast in brass (or aluminum).

At 1/4 turn out at idle I'd guess stupid rich, but remember that the screws are for idle circuit only and mean absolutely nothing once your foot touches the gas pedal. Float level will affect you across the board. As will main jet size, so if your carb has been "tuned" return it to baseline.

What happens when you romp it good? Does it hit hard and then nose over? Does it bog and blubber as soon as you mash the pedal, but then clear it's throat and run like a raped ape after a second or two? Is it just doggy all over? Will a 5 degree increrase/decrease in baseline timing change anything? Black smoke out the back? Can you drive it normally on the street or is it really bad?

As far as that intake goes, if I had one of those lying around gathering dust, I probably wouldn't spend money on something else. It's not your main problem here anyhow. The Street Dominator, especially in the 318 port size is probably the ultimate small port intake, although an LD4B might give you a bit more bite down low. Ditch the open spacer and see what happens once you get the mixture close. If traction is an issue, a single plane may be the quick way home anyhow.
 
thanks all. still fighting with it. it seems to act as if the choke is stuck shut. The only problem is that the choke is not even on the carb. has a small miss or shimmy at an idle, and then bogs just as I touch the pedal. then stays crappy the rest of the time. I can drive it on the street as long as it is just at an idle, or I really really ease into it, then still cant get it above 50mph. I had it in the shop last night, and after about 5 munites, my eyes were burning. smells really rich. we removed the spacer, still the same. tried to mess with the timing and the carb, but to no avail. even put a restrictor in the fuel line to see if that might be it. can points being off a bit make it run rich? tried to power brake on the slick shop floor, and it just spits and sputters really bad, and feels like there is a miss.....wont even turn the tires.
 
18436572 in cw formation? verify that. idle mix screws are set to max rpm, then in 1/4 turn to take the rich edge off. then lastly reset idle speed.
 
I've seen worn out distributers do similar. Points open and close about right at idle but the vacuum advance screws the dwell up bad. Try just pluging off that vacuum line.
 
Anyone in your neighborhood that could lend a hand? Sounds like there could be a dozen reasons for this...
 
unfortionatly no one even in the county has a dodge. Part of the reason I switched from Chevy to Dodge. I have not seen one around. I have changed almost everything to try and repair this. 3 intakes, the Holley, a stock 4bbl, and the stock 2bbl. 3 carbs, an 850 eldebrock, a 600 Eldebrock and the stock 2 bbl. removed the carb spacer. played with the timing until blue in the face. checked firing order half a million times. 2 sets of plugs new wires, checked for vacumme leaks. Can a stock mechanical pump, go bad and put out to much fuel? the stock 2bbl I had pulled off last month, and out in a bag, was pouring fuel out of the vent tube withen seconds. I installed a line restictor in the fuel line, but that did not help. gonna keep at it untill I find something. thanks all
 
yep fuel pump has a pressure relief in it. The needle/seat in the bowl should stop the overflow unless it cant handle the pressure.
 
I got a few questions. First what is the history behind this engine, is it a recent install or was the engine running fine and then started acting up. Check the timing with a timing light to make sure it is advancing as engine revs up, it should go an extra 20 degrees or so from your idle setting of 10 - 14 degrees. Is there a chance that the timing chain could have jumped a tooth or two or was the chain timed properly to begin with. By chance when you go to start it does it occasionally bark back through the carb.

Terry
 
the engine is a new build, buy a pro in Denver. was full assembled when I picked it up. fires right up, without hesitation. no poping. but when you get the engine to 2500ish, it bogs really bad, and then starts poping out the carb. just went out and double checked timing, advance, cap, rotor, and adjusted points to .010. will leaning out cause the poping in the carb. I was sure it was rich mixture, but was just told that running lean will cause your eyes to burn as well. hmmmm now really stumped.
 
prestigue said:
the engine is a new build, buy a pro in Denver. was full assembled when I picked it up. fires right up, without hesitation. no poping. but when you get the engine to 2500ish, it bogs really bad, and then starts poping out the carb. just went out and double checked timing, advance, cap, rotor, and adjusted points to .010. will leaning out cause the poping in the carb. I was sure it was rich mixture, but was just told that running lean will cause your eyes to burn as well. hmmmm now really stumped.
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I just remembered that something like this happened to me on a 360 when I swithched to champion plugs. I'd take her for a drive for 30 minutes and then pull the plugs and see what they look like, if she's running rich they should be black and sooty and maybe even wet. You could also try going up 2 heat ranges on the plugs. Also has this engine got a EGR (exhaust gas recirculator) valve on it. If it does, and I doubt that it does, it would be on the intake manifold right behind the carb and looks like about a 3-4" mushroom head with a vacuum hose going to it.

Terry
 
prestigue said:
the engine is a new build, buy a pro in Denver. was full assembled when I picked it up. fires right up, without hesitation. no poping. but when you get the engine to 2500ish, it bogs really bad, and then starts poping out the carb. just went out and double checked timing, advance, cap, rotor, and adjusted points to .010. will leaning out cause the poping in the carb. YES I was sure it was rich mixture, but was just told that running lean will cause your eyes to burn as well. hmmmm now really stumped.
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What ignition system are you running. You said it was built in Denver. Where are you located? I'm in Denver.
Look under the car. Did someone stick a cat converter on it to clear emissions?
 
I'd have to smell it to tell rich/lean as a lean out has a distinct smell. But you should be able to track this glitch down pretty easy. Black plugs, black smoke? Oil turning black quick and smelling like gas? First, 99% of carb problems are ignition related. And as you said you have switched carbs without affecting the problem, we can probably rule out the carb pretty quick. Have you swapped the distributor itself? Lets work one side then the other. Lets touch on the carb real quick. You've said a couple things that have me scratching my head. "The choke isnt even on" has it been removed from the carb? Is the wire not hooked up to the electric thermostat? If the choke has been removed from the carb, the "hacked carb" flag goes up, but you also say you have swapped carbs without changin the problem. If the choke is present, but the wire is not hooked to the thermostat, then the coke is probably on, whether you want it on or not. I am assuniong this is not the case, but let's not overlook the obvious. Nest you mention having installed a fuel line restrictor. You did remove this, right?

Now, on to the ignition system. Points or electronic? Neither one sshould cause the problem you describe, but either could. Plugs, cap/rotor and wires are NEW right? Old crappy wires will cause all kinds of badness. You advance mechanisms, both mechanical and vacuum work correctly? A bad mechanical advance will cause a high RPM breakup. Twist the rotor in the direction of rotation, it should spring back. A leaking vacuum advance will cause an off idle stumble, but you should be able to "step through" the flat spot. If you are running points make sure you set them with a dwell gauge, not just a feeler gauge (if there is a big difference, you center bushing is shot, and you need a new distributor.) How about the coil? I use a $12.99 universal as a troubleshoot coil...if the cheap piece of crap coil makes an engine run better, then it needs a new coil. If you are running electronic ignition, try a cheapo replacement spark box. As with the coil, it will either help or not. Electronic ignitions are somewhat sensitive to good voltage. Make sure all connections are clean.

This ought to give you some things to look at. AVOID SHOTGUN MAINTENANCE!!! Change one thing at a time and evaluate.
 
here is what we have now. the engine itself was built in Denver by a couple of racers there. I used to have electronic ignition in, but due to my problems with starting I switched to points ignition. the Eldebrock carb, has had the choke flap removed from when we were running on a race car. I removed the line restrictor. added a stock pressure (4.5-6.5psi) elec fuel pump. I finally got fed up with the car lastnight and called around and found a guy 40 miles away that races a 1970 cuda with a hemi. he has 2-3 old a bodies at his house, and was told by alot of racer buddies that he is "the man" to see with Mopar related problems. I called last night and dropped the car off at his house. he worked all day today, redid the distributor (re curved, adjust points, checked advance...ect) rebuilt the carb as best he could. told me I needed a 600cfm holley. worked for 6-7 hours today, and could not find it. he thinks that the guys that built the motor may have gotten the cam timing off a tooth or 2. I decided to find a new cam and have him install as soon as I recieve it. the other thing he found was the fact that we have a Holley street dominator intake, ported heads, and I could not get the headers into the car, so I am running stock manifolds and single small pipe. so the saga continues for now, but at least it is where it belongs.....at a Mopar shop.
 
wild guess here...... dont electronic and points use different coils? maybe the wiring at the coil is hooked up backwards?
why change the cam if you think its off instead of re-aligning the marks?
 
If this guy suspects the valve timing is off, have him pull the timing cover to verify. If the timing is off, you have 2 choices; first this guy could reset the valve timing, put it together and you're in business. But since you say you have a pro built engine, I would return the engine to them at gunpoint and make them fix it. At a minimum I would take the receipt to the engine builder and demand payment for fixing their screwup.

Then you have the issue of support plumbing for your engine...
 
FINALLY!!!!! We got it figured out. first of all the pickup coil in the elec dist was shot causing the welding problem. Second the poor running was caused from the following. 1) the flapper on the passenger side of the engine would flap shut when the engine was reved. 2) single small pipe....way to small and restrictive. but the funniest 3)we finally had checked everything else, so we pulled the timing cover today...guess what...the cam was 25-29 degrees advanced......how the hell did it even run to start with. could explain the hard to start thing and the lack of power, and the popping. reset to 2 degrees and put it mostly back together and fired her up....ran like a champ. the guy is not letting me pay him for the work, he decided to take it up with the builder himself. we cut the pipes off 6" below the manifolds to check it, so tommorrow it is off to install the headers, and new exhaust. a few new questions. will the rear end of an E body same year fit an A body? what about exhaust pipes? my new "best friend" has a 1970 Cuda, and a shop full of Moparts. has a pro built 8 3/4 rear end. 11.5:1 500hp 383 with 727 (manual valve body) he has it all. want to install all into the dart next year. I know engine, trans will fit, but want the rear if it will fit as well. it has the pro stock new leaf springs, and racing adj shocks on it. I can buy it all with a guarentee for $1500.00 the engine has 3 runs down the track, trany has none. rear has none. is this a good deal? thanks all for the help. finally it has started to go forward. during this all we came up with a name for the car. From here on out she shall be forever remembered and named......BadMojo!!!
 
Put a vacuum gauge on it - if the chain is off or its out of time the reading will be low(look in an old Chiltons manual and they have several pages of vacuum readings and what they mean.) It's very old school but a great diagnostic tool. Also, I chased my tail on a car that did the same thing, after replacing everything I found out it was a five dollar ballast resistor. It's the ceramic white thing on the firewall. (I'm pretty sure they have a different resistance from electronic to points)
 
That's great you found it all. The E body rear case will not fit anA body. Way too wide. But, the center section, brakes, and drivetrain will with some other parts. You may want to cruise in what you have before you start upgrading things. See what you like, see what you dont. Then decide what to do.
 
well its all buttoned up. I removed the stock manifolds yesterday and tried to install a set of "universal" headers. what a pain. I ended up not being able to fit it with the power steering box. so back to the house and ordered a set of headman 78050 headers (says it will fit 72 318 auto with power steering) and a set of 2.5" 70" side pipes. hope to have it all in by saturday. while up on the lift, I found that my left lower ball joint is shot, so I have to replace that as well. need to find one of them today, and order it up. hopefully be running it this weekend. thanks again all for your suggestions. someday I hope to actully drive this thing. throwing a ton of money at it, and have only driven it about 2 miles. but hey what the heck, it was a good 2 miles.......
 
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