Painting dilemma (long). What would you do?

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DrCharles

DrCharles

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I have a '72 Dart that is getting ready for paint and can't decide whether (or how) to DIY. The background:

I bought the shell stripped and in a couple different colors of primer. My first attempt at paint was a disaster, as the cheap spray gun was "splattering" and the paint was highly textured, not to mention curtain runs, dirt, you name it, any novice mistake possible. So I walked away from it for a while!

I sanded down the disaster (not smooth enough as it turned out), and tried again with a decent Devilbiss gun and a darker paint. This coat came out better, but the flaws from the first coat were highly visible and there were many pinholes. Pretty sure it was water droplets from an insufficiently dry airline and a humid day. Again, walk away in disgust.

This winter I finally got back to it, having completed the remainder of the car including cam break-in. I DA'ed then hand-sanded the entire car AGAIN with 220 then 400, spent numerous hours fixing dings with glazing putty, a door dent which I repaired with a stud welder/slide hammer and a little filler, and spray can primer/surfacer filling all the areas of pinholes and sanding THOSE areas. All that sanding gave me a rotator cuff tendinitis so my sanding's pretty much done for the spring.

I got a couple of local painters, one who did the top half of a car for me after I sanded the original failed clearcoat/paint, to look at the job. The first guy only has a small shop and didn't want to do a whole exterior (and underhood/under trunk lid) at all, because his bread & butter was small repairs for used-car dealers. Understandable.

Another young local guy just quoted me $3000 for labor only, which included removing the hood, trunk, doors & fenders, spraying the sheet metal back seat firewall, and underside of hood and trunk lids. I am going to leave the trunk and lower engine compartment alone. He claims extensive filler, block sand, sealer, etc. is needed on the exterior. Frankly I can't even feel the curve in the left rear quarter area he says needs leveling, let alone see it. He showed me a $1300 (labor and paint) scuff & spray black Firebird that the owner insisted on... looks like crap with all the dings, and I can see "blotches" in the passenger door in bright sunlight. He says my car would look even more uneven if he just painted it with basecoat/clearcoat. And now he's waffling, claiming everyone's telling him not to do my car and that I will be too hard to please!! Going to look at a similar job he did on a Jeep for $3500 recently.

So I may end up having to DIY. I am gradually figuring out the things I did wrong. First is to build a paint booth inside the barn from 2x4's, plastic sheeting, box fans, furnace filters and LOTS of light. Next is to get a better water trap and a desiccant snake. Finally I have a spare door I can practice on... if my shoulder holds up. I'm also due for wrist surgery probably in April (carpal tunnel caused by a chronic sprain). Getting old sucks but it beats the alternative!

I can't decide whether to continue learning how to paint as described above, or keep looking for a painter who will do a good job at a reasonable price. I think 3k labor is a lot of money since it's not a show restoration by any means. He thinks it's cheap. Any thoughts?
 
Perseverance can sometimes pay off. You have learned some things not to do.

IF it were me, and it will be, in the not too distant future, I would continue the DIY path. But then again, I am a very stubborn person, lol.

Take a step back, ask questions, watch some vids on the process and then practice on your spare panel.
 
1st. You absolutely do not have the skill to feel or see what a trained body man can. So if someone is saying something is there, it very well could be.

This is what I would do. If you have a community college in the area, find out if they have a restoration class. This would give you access to professional help, equipment, a paint booth, and mixing system.

Even if it's $500 a term, it's still one hell of a deal.


Many painters will not short cut or do the old quick and cheap jobs because someone may ask you "who painted your car?" and that painters name is now attached to that low quality work forever. Personal reputation is a body man and painters paycheck.
 
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I am not doubting his ability to feel things that I can't... just wondering how critical it is? I know that flaws show up once the shiny clearcoat is applied that aren't visible in flat basecoat. I would accept some flaws in a DIY job that I would not in a $3000 (plus $700 BC/CC) professional job.

Also, the previous attempt was single-stage. It won't have the deep gloss that a BC/CC job would - on the other hand it's simpler (and less expensive) to apply, and some errors can be repaired with appropriate sanding and buffing...
 
Keep at it. I can almost promise you will end up with something better than you could expect from some guy that is screaming you need 10 grand because his 3,000 blow and go is still going to look like ****. I have been through this before and I'm currently waiting for warmer weather to shoot my last coat and I don't have no where near 3000 in supplies. your gun setup and prep is the key. I have truck parts I practice on
 
I think you're on the right track with the DIY thing. I have seen some pretty quality jobs done at home with basic tools and equipment. If you can't pull the trigger for the $3000+ "store bought" paint job you just need to , like the others have said, read up, watch videos, ask questions and practice. I am no expert but what I have seen of the base/clear now days, it's a much easier product to work with than the old single stage.
 
DrCharles said:
I am not doubting his ability to feel things that I can't... just wondering how critical it is? I know that flaws show up once the shiny clearcoat is applied that aren't visible in flat basecoat. I would accept some flaws in a DIY job that I would not in a $3000 (plus $700 BC/CC) professional job.

Also, the previous attempt was single-stage. It won't have the deep gloss that a BC/CC job would - on the other hand it's simpler (and less expensive) to apply, and some errors can be repaired with appropriate sanding and buffing...
Click to expand...

If someone can feel lumps and waves, it will really look bad. I don't know what your expectations are.

If you were closer I could give you a real evaluation and professional guidance. Do you know how to correctly block a car and are you using guide coat?
 
You need to learn to see the flaws in the body. read up on guide coats, block sanding. You can see flaws by wetting the car, and looking at the panel from an angle. It will never look right until you can see what needs work. 3K for a paint job is fair, if they are fixing problems too. The main thing with paint, I think, is if it's not coming out right, STOP! figure out what you're doing wrong before proceeding. And, why are you fixing dents with a slide hammer after the car was painted? All the body work should be done to perfection first, before you ever think about laying paint. Considering this, I personally think you need to cough up the bucks, and pay someone. Consider how much it will cost to build the spray booth, paint materials, proper bondo, time, aggravation,etc. Paint and bodywork is an art. some can do it, and some can't.
 
I've found that wetting a panel with grease & wax remover gives it a temporary shine that allows me to look at it... and helps get the crud off too.

I wanted to paint the car quickly, then fix the door dent later. Obviously not optimal. In the intervening several years I have learned a lot more about body and paint. More than I want to, actually ;)

Time & aggravation is the big factor here. I have discovered that I am not a "natural" at it. Engines, drivetrain, electrical, all that stuff I've been doing for 30+ years. But body and paint is new and not very pleasant.

I would pay someone to finish at this point, even the 3 grand! The trouble is, nobody wants a large job when they could be doing several more profitable small jobs. And as I said up front, the one who agreed is looking for reasons to back out...
 
I can sympathize with the body man. A insurance job pays 10 hours and he can get it done in 8. He makes more money. Painting old cars is just time and materials. $3000 is 30 hours @ $100/hour. The better shops around my area are charging that much. It takes a lot longer than 30 hours to do a complete paint and even longer to replace panels, remove rust and take out dents. I don't know anyone that charges $50/hr but if they did that would be a week and a half to do the complete job. Most shops have a day or two of just block sanding.
 
A DIY paint job that can be a 20 footer takes a couple years of perseverance and between $1,000 and $2,000 for the materials to do it right depending on the product and quality. That is before the tools of the trade you need. The alternative is not pleasant either, fifteen years ago I paid a body shop $5,000 to paint my Comet and I prepped the car. I promised myself I would never allow anyone to touch another one of my cars as I can do better body and paint in my driveway than that body shop did on my Comet. Oh it is a great color and nice 20 footer and gets a lot of compliments but I am not happy with it and will be fixing it myself when my Barracuda is finished. On the other hand, I did all my own work on my Barracuda and the indicators are good but I will know in a month or so what I have. Also, it took me four years while working full time and cost me about $2,500 in material. But win or loose I have only myself to complain about if it is not what I want.
I am a big advocate of doing it yourself but only you know your budget, expectations and time constraints. Best of luck to you whichever way you decide to go.
 
Watch several videos on utube. I like learn auto paint. Tony is trying to sale you to purchase his program, which is good, but you don't need to purchase to watch several videos and gain more knowledge. If you have the car in primer and want to see if it is smooth and straight, you can spray a different color primer over it. Spray lightly, not full coverage, now use the longest hand sander you have and sand the primer first in one direction and then in the other so you are crisscrossing to get a smooth surface. You have already learned a lot from the mistakes you have made, I know professional painters are good and really make a car stand out, but you can do a good job yourself. It is time consuming, but watch some videos, take your time, and most importantly, practice on the door you have. Make sure you have the settings correct and the paint mixed correctly.
 
The site is LearnAutoBodyAndPaint. I have joined the site which is expensive, but if you watch the free videos you can learn a lot. The price of joining will come down if you keep watching the videos. I just felt like he was teaching me a lot of good stuff and I didn't have to endure the cussing and stuff some of the sites had.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
 
the first car i ever did paint and body work to i was 17 and it was my old 79 chevy pickup, first car, painted it 69 chevy lemans blue, paint ended up awful super wavy panels the works, still got a lot of compliments but i always saw the negatives fast forward to a few years ago i worked cut and replaced about every panel on my 72 duster, painted it black, its not perfect, but much better than my old chevy, i imagine if i didnt paint it black it would look a lot better than it does, if i ever paint a car again im sure it will look even better, i dont believe in "talent" i believe in hard work experience and perseverance. paint it yourself i bet youll surprise yourself how it turns out, besides, are we not in this hobby to do it ourselves? take pride in your work, trust me those professional painters first paint job didnt look professional.
 
DrCharles said:
I've found that wetting a panel with grease & wax remover gives it a temporary shine that allows me to look at it... and helps get the crud off too.

I wanted to paint the car quickly, then fix the door dent later. Obviously not optimal. In the intervening several years I have learned a lot more about body and paint. More than I want to, actually ;)

Time & aggravation is the big factor here. I have discovered that I am not a "natural" at it. Engines, drivetrain, electrical, all that stuff I've been doing for 30+ years. But body and paint is new and not very pleasant.

I would pay someone to finish at this point, even the 3 grand! The trouble is, nobody wants a large job when they could be doing several more profitable small jobs. And as I said up front, the one who agreed is looking for reasons to back out...
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Have you ever thought of taking a night school course for body and paint repair?
 
i am completely self taught DIY painter, you cannot go into it getting frustrated your first, 1, 2 or 3 attempts. Hell the first car i painted i had to redo multiple panels over and over until i got them right. Starting out, honestly i found single stage more difficult then a 2k process. Hell i started paining on hotwheels with an airbrush, i know, its a completely different level. but taught me overlap and control are the most important thing. I would definitely step up filtration, and the little water separators you attach inline with the gun just dont cut it.

dont expect perfection without perseverance and practice. overlap and gun control, especially on long overhead panels. was the hardest for me to learn. especially spraying long roofs bent over, with 600ml of paint. If you dont plan on building some type of enclosure, you are going to get dirt in your paint, fisheyes, many random imperfections. you either accept that its going to happen or build an enclosure. If you call around some shops may rent out booths to you, it wont be cheap. but it is an option.

Again, i am no professional, by a long shot, and i know i do things wrong. but if painting is something you want to learn, like anything else, you will make mistakes and learn from them, and press on.
 
Also I need advice on constructing a temporary paint booth which I only plan to use for this project. Since the car is not driveable without glass or lights, even if I could borrow/rent a booth it's not practical way out here in the country.

One problem is that my workshop (inside a 40x30 steel building) has a dirt floor which isn't perfectly level, and the 4x4's of the sill leave a gap of up to 8-10" to the ground. I'm thinking of putting a tarp over the dirt and driving the car onto it, then building the booth around it. I will be removing the hood, trunk lid and both doors to paint them separately - not sure if before or after the shell.

The rafters are about 10' high, so I can staple plastic sheeting directly to them and not have to build a framework. Sides can reach to the ground the same way. For ventilation I've seen articles showing two cheap box fans with furnace filters duct-taped for intake and exhaust. Fluorescent lights are already strung from the rafters and I'll add at least one more two-tube eight foot fixture.

Any ideas? thanks.
 
The plans I am using was found on google. I am using PVC pipe for the frame and plastic for the walls and top. My garage is part of the house and I wouldn't care to spray in there, so I am building the temporary paint booth just outside of the garage so I can roll my car out of the garage into the booth.
 
The PVC pipe is also cheaper than the wood unless you happen to have that available. Also it seemed easier to construct and take apart. Also easy to store for a future project
 
DrCharles said:
Also I need advice on constructing a temporary paint booth which I only plan to use for this project. Since the car is not driveable without glass or lights, even if I could borrow/rent a booth it's not practical way out here in the country.

One problem is that my workshop (inside a 40x30 steel building) has a dirt floor which isn't perfectly level, and the 4x4's of the sill leave a gap of up to 8-10" to the ground. I'm thinking of putting a tarp over the dirt and driving the car onto it, then building the booth around it. I will be removing the hood, trunk lid and both doors to paint them separately - not sure if before or after the shell.

The rafters are about 10' high, so I can staple plastic sheeting directly to them and not have to build a framework. Sides can reach to the ground the same way. For ventilation I've seen articles showing two cheap box fans with furnace filters duct-taped for intake and exhaust. Fluorescent lights are already strung from the rafters and I'll add at least one more two-tube eight foot fixture.

Any ideas? thanks.
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I wouldn't filter the exhaust. Lights on the walls too. Get everything ready including your paint mixing station at least a day before spraying, let things settle down dust wise. Next day, let your fans run for a while. Tip toe into your booth and tack everything. Tack yourself, gun, hose, etc. between coats. Uses old tack rags for hoses and what not. Let your sealer dry good and de-nib before applying color, using a tack rag to gather the sanding dust. #600 grit. You can tack between coats of color if using bc/cc. You can even sand the basecoat between coats but not the last coat before the clearcoat.

Maybe park the tires on a couple twelve foot 2x? lumber to hold the tarp down a little better.
 
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You can staple plastic to rafters and then staple a 2x4 to the bottom to hold it tight. You really need to cover the ground if it's dirt. That's just asking for moisture and crap in your paint. A huge tarp under the car might work....

Box fans work great, but don't put them on the dirt floor. Maybe a few pieces of wood under the fan, filter the air going in to keep the dirt out. Also one fan pushing air in and one out. Make sure the one pushing air in isn't pointed at the car. Put it off to the side.

As for the prep... I agree with most, you need more research, the more you know, the better.

I don't have the ability plus I want a show car paint job so I ponied up for a complete paint job with body work.

RIddler
 
I'm actually thinking of building a frame outside and adjacent to the barn, of PVC or maybe light angle iron. It only has to hold up the plastic and maybe a little wind loading. The area in the building is rather cramped on the sides (and spraying the rear quarters will probably be the most difficult), but outdoors I can make it as wide as I want.

After looking at several threads on DIY booths, it looks like the intake should be up high and the exhaust at the floor (downdraft). Many have found that two box fans (one in, one out) are not sufficient to clear the paint mist. I want a positive pressure inside so that the plastic does not have to be perfectly sealed to keep pollen and gnats out, too.

I'm still hoping the guy who said he'd do it will quit waffling. I am supposed to see an example of a similar priced and detailed job this week - but will not be surprised if he backs out. Wish he'd commit or not so I can start building the booth!
 
I don't want to go into a long thing here about personal experience and DIY. I can if you'd like, and it will help you out.

My one employee is a 25yr old kid that flips cars on the side. He makes over 50k a year flipping cars. He does all the prep work and sends them to Maaco. They suck at bodywork and prep, but can lay paint like Michael Angelo. Just get it straight and flat and tape it off in the parking lot. He usually pays $700-$1000 for a damn good paint job.
 
Please do. More information is always useful, especially if it saves me from wasting more paint and another 20+ hours reprepping. :thumbsup:

I would take it to Maaco too, but the nearest one is 100 miles away. The base/clear I want to use is close to $700 for a gallon. But I'd be really happy if it only cost me the same for labor!

*Michelangelo as in Buonarotti? I'm pretty sure Michael Angelo is one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...
:rofl:
 
Some report from people I know vary so much on maaco. Some are happy and some are dissatisfied. All did their own body work and prep, so really hard to tell.
 
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