PCV leak

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512Stroker

We are all here because we are not all there.
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I have been chasing a vacuum leak for some time I final found it.
The cheap piece of crap PCV valve that I got at the local auto parts place was leaking internally bad. Put my thumb over the open end and the engine idle dropped from 900 rpm to almost 700 rpm. The valve is relatively new, I blew it out with some cleaner - no effect
Who makes a good PCV USA made that has less leakage?
 
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What is your idle vacuum level, OP? If it is under about 14 inches + or -, then the stock type SBM PVC's, regardless of brand, will be opened up to the high flow (cruise) setting.
 
It's perfectly normal for the engine to idle down when you seal the PCV valve completely off. Since the PCV system is not closed, it is more or less a controlled vacuum leak. That's how it operates. See attached.

PCV SYSTEM.jpg
 
What is your idle vacuum level, OP? If it is under about 14 inches + or -, then the stock type SBM PVC's, regardless of brand, will be opened up to the high flow (cruise) setting.
I was afraid of that.
My 340 makes 10 inches at idle.
You confirmed my suspicions
 
It's perfectly normal for the engine to idle down when you seal the PCV valve completely off. Since the PCV system is not closed, it is more or less a controlled vacuum leak. That's how it operates. See attached.

View attachment 1715496707
Thanks Rusty I understand how it functions I just want one that has a lower vacuum setting.
 
I was afraid of that.
My 340 makes 10 inches at idle.
You confirmed my suspicions
Yep that is the issue. I do not know of any stock style PCV that will transition below 10 in, Mopar, GM or otherwise. The Wagner part can be made to operate in dual mode at your vacuum levels. See here: http://mewagner.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DF-17-Shop-Manual-R7.pdf

Now, one thing.... your carb setup can have a lot to do with the idle vacuum level. Especially the secondary throttle stop and the base ignition timing can have a lot of effect. We went up 2" with proper setting of the secondary stop screw, and associated re-tuning. That is the 1st thing to do...but you'd have to simulate a PVC at low flow to get there.
 
Ditto on the Wagner.
I noticed my engine isn't pushing oil out all over the place anymore as well.
It used to right at the pcv and annoy the heck out of me.

I realized that I spent all my hard earned $ on fancy this, and expensive that, then continued to buy cheap pcvs and wondered where was the elusive kink in the chain.
 
M.E. Wagner has setup options based on your vacuum. Yes it cost more than $3.95, isn't plastic and isn't made in China - which means it is a really nice part - very happy on my purchase
 
Yep that is the issue. I do not know of any stock style PCV that will transition below 10 in, Mopar, GM or otherwise. The Wagner part can be made to operate in dual mode at your vacuum levels. See here: http://mewagner.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DF-17-Shop-Manual-R7.pdf

Now, one thing.... your carb setup can have a lot to do with the idle vacuum level. Especially the secondary throttle stop and the base ignition timing can have a lot of effect. We went up 2" with proper setting of the secondary stop screw, and associated re-tuning. That is the 1st thing to do...but you'd have to simulate a PVC at low flow to get there.
Believe me the carb and timing have been optimized. Using my vacuum gauge, several different setups 10 inches is all it is going to make, started at just under nine inches.
The current PCV must be working to some extent as I have no oil puking into the air cleaner.
 
It's perfectly normal for the engine to idle down when you seal the PCV valve completely off. Since the PCV system is not closed, it is more or less a controlled vacuum leak. That's how it operates. See attached.

View attachment 1715496707
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the way the 426 hemis I had came from the factory. I tried it on my 505 wedge and it acted like a huge vacuum leak, pulled it back off and installed a breather on one side /pcv on the other, rpm went back to normal ! I aint got that figured out yet .
I tried a crankcase vacuum test on it w/ just the pcv valve on one side and a gauge on the other/sealed up, , idleing at 1100 , to about 3000 or so it had 4" of crankcase vacuum, and went up a small amount as I raised it a little more, didn`t go any farther , the engine wasnt warmed up. The intake vacuum runs about 9/10 at idle and 14/15 at cruise. Really wondering why I keep having oil leaks ----------anyone got an answer ????
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the way the 426 hemis I had came from the factory. I tried it on my 505 wedge and it acted like a huge vacuum leak, pulled it back off and installed a breather on one side /pcv on the other, rpm went back to normal ! I aint got that figured out yet .
I tried a crankcase vacuum test on it w/ just the pcv valve on one side and a gauge on the other/sealed up, , idleing at 1100 , to about 3000 or so it had 4" of crankcase vacuum, and went up a small amount as I raised it a little more, didn`t go any farther , the engine wasnt warmed up. The intake vacuum runs about 9/10 at idle and 14/15 at cruise. Really wondering why I keep having oil leaks ----------anyone got an answer ????

For you heavy thinkers out there -------------------------------------------

What if , i put a pan evac set up on the side i tested , and left the pcv on the other side ? what if i put a pan evac set up on both sides and left the pcv set up too ??
 
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My 360, after the tune, has no idle problem with any cam it has ever had from the 292/292/108 Mopar, to the 270/276/110 Hughes, to the current 276/286/110
even idling down to sub-600 in gear (manual trans) pulling itself along at ~4 mph on a flat,level, hard surface.
But I don't tune the idle with a vacuum gauge. And I don't tune it with the timing lite. And I don't use an AFR gauge.Instead, I let the engine tell me what it wants and then try to make it happen.
The only thing I insist on, is getting the Transfer slot exposure right. Then I set the idle speed with a combination of idle-air bypass and timing.
The PCV is my primary bypass, with thru-holes in the primary throttle valves as trimmers.
The trick is to not set the idle-timing with the vacuum gauge!, which leads to far more timing than the engine needs, or wants.It just makes getting the tune right ,darn near impossible.
For instance; that 292 cam wanted idle-timing deep into the 20s. But to keep the idlespeed in check, this nearly shut the transfer slots off; and in compensation I had to crank the mixture screws way out. So it idled reasonably well....... but with the transfers mostly dried up, I had a big hesitation on Tip-in.
So I pulled out timing, little by little, and the engine slowed down. Eventually, when the transfers came alive, and the fuel-trimmers back in a working range,the hesitation went away, but the engine ran out of bypass air from the PCV, and so, I figured out that if 1 PCV is not enough, then maybe 2 would be.Well that didn't work out the best all the time. But by this time I knew I was on the right track.
So I drilled the holes in the throttles, and drilled them bigger, and bigger, and suddenly more air just made the idle speed go up.
OOps.
So I soldered up the too-big holes, moved over, backed up the timing some more, and drilled new smaller holes;
Badaboom , I was back on track.
With that cam,IIRC, the idle-timing ended up at 12 to 14, and the holes ended at ~3/32 (1 in each primary).
Of course, with a manual trans, low-speed timing is far more critical than with a hi-stalled automatic; but the idle set-up for the auto is still of major importance.
For the idle-tune; on that 292, I never put a vacuum gauge on it, nor a timing light. See; I had a preconceived notion, that my engine should have a certain amount of idle-timing in or near the 20s, based on what magazine article preached. But those numbers mighta worked with the iron-headed 9.5Scr combos of the 1990s. But the iron-head tune sure didn't work on my Eddie-headed 11.3 engine.
The point is this; I learned to listen to my engine, and gave it what it wanted, not what I thought it should have. And idle-vacuum in my case, was meaningless.
I have no idea what the vacuum was at sub600 in gear, with that cam,lol.
Nor do I know what it is with the current 276/286/110, except that this cam will chug along nicely at 550/4mph. It will keep on running down to 500, but hasn't got quite enough power all the time. I almost have to toe the clutch to climb over a dime,lol. By the way,it won't do this at 14* idle-timing. I installed a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing device, and crank the timing down to ~5*. Before I had that device, at 14*, she would get to bucking like a wild horse. The timing retard tamed her.
That took care of idle-timing...........

BTW: I run the AG intake and an ancient 750DP, circa the 70s. And I just slapped on the first old used PCV that came out of the junk collection.I mean in 1999, I was none too smart,lol; not even thinking that there might be a difference among them; it fit the grommet and wasn't painted ox-blood red,or turquoise, so in it went.It's been in there ever since.
Just hoping to help.
 
@famous bob
My 360 used to leak at the rear mainseal, because of a botched line-hone.
I tried the pan E-vacs, but they worked too good, and filled my mufflers with oil.
I re-engineered the baffles in the valve covers, which helped, but never cured it.
On the next regularly scheduled tear-down, I pulled the 2-piece neoprene rear seal out, and replaced it with a rope-seal from a 383. That more or less cured that particular leak.......... lol. and the E-vacs never went back on.
Instead I installed some Plasma-Moly file-fit rings which read so low on the leakdown gauge that I almost doubted it was being truthful.
But the 93mph trap, in the 1/8th, sorta proved she had plenty of power. I love those rings.PITA to fit tho.
 
For you heavy thinkers out there -------------------------------------------

What if , i put a pan evac set up on the side i tested , and left the pcv on the other side ? what if i put a pan evac set up on both sides and left the pcv set up too ??


I do the latter. Jenkins covered this in his book. You do NOT run a breather doing this or you defeat the purpose.

At idle you have a normal functioning PCV valve and the pan evacs don’t do too much but they do help. At a cruise you have both the PCV and the pan evacs pulling on the crank case. At WOT the PCV does nothing but the pan evacs are at full pull.

I will data log this when I get my data logger to verify that it’s working as it should.

I called M.E. Wagner and talked to the dad before I bought mine. He was stumped at what I was trying to do, which is pull negative pressure in the crank case as best I can without a vacuum pump. As soon as I get some data on it I’ll send it to him, as he was very concerned his valve wouldn’t do what I want, but it does, and does it very well. I just need the PROOF!
 
Believe me the carb and timing have been optimized. Using my vacuum gauge, several different setups 10 inches is all it is going to make, started at just under nine inches.
The current PCV must be working to some extent as I have no oil puking into the air cleaner.
OK on the optimization.. just wanted to be sure that step was being done.

Yes, of course it is working. It is in wide open mode all the time.... that is cruise mode so is going to pull all the oil fumes out. But you need a PCV that will drop to low-flow mode when the vacuum levels rise when you are at idle or very light throttle openings.
 
@yellow rose


What book? Is this Bill Jenkins? I am also interested in a good read, more so lately


Yep...the Jenkins engine book. I hadn’t read the book in years, and I was bored so I pulled it out and realized that at that time, there was no such thing when the book was written what was called at that time (1995) soft honing. But in essence, that’s what he was doing. They would get the engine on the dyno and break it in and make some pulls. They would then pull it down, lightly hone it (IIRC I’m going off my memory but I’m close) and then install new rings. The engine would pick up power every time.

Now, you can either brush hone it with what I call soft hone brushes or there is a new thing being used and gain, IIRC it is CBN to finish the bores that does the same thing.

Guys like Jenkins and Yunick were well ahead of their time. There is so much valuable info in both books I now pull them out every year or so and go through them.

In the Jenkins book you’ll find where he used a PCV valve and pan EVC together.

Very cool stuff.
 
OK on the optimization.. just wanted to be sure that step was being done.

Yes, of course it is working. It is in wide open mode all the time.... that is cruise mode so is going to pull all the oil fumes out. But you need a PCV that will drop to low-flow mode when the vacuum levels rise when you are at idle or very light throttle openings.
I lucked out and found an old molded plastic PCV that did the trick. Dropped the idle right into the sweet spot. Idle now is right at about 800 rpm and around 700 in drive.
 
Any model info on that part? For future reference....

Now doe some heavy cruise driving on the engine (not WOT) some and see if the oil stays under control or if you get a lot of oil blown out. This is a check just in case the new-old PCV is fixing your idle by simple being a smaller flow item. If it too low a flow, it won't pull enough air at heavy cruise to evacuate the oil fumes adequately.
 
Any model info on that part? For future reference....

Now doe some heavy cruise driving on the engine (not WOT) some and see if the oil stays under control or if you get a lot of oil blown out. This is a check just in case the new-old PCV is fixing your idle by simple being a smaller flow item. If it too low a flow, it won't pull enough air at heavy cruise to evacuate the oil fumes adequately.
Found the PCV in a box of old parts a Buddy's place. He said it came off a big block Ford engine a few decades ago. I will try to research
 
Found the PCV in a box of old parts a Buddy's place. He said it came off a big block Ford engine a few decades ago. I will try to research

To rejoin and older post, I have found an alum. straight pcv type valve that will open with any suction, for an experiment as a evac line set up , thinking it will draw all the time. I have been running an oil intersceptor/collector w/ a site tube to see if any oil is getting thru my existing pcv set up and into the throttle body , hasn`t passed any yet. Dont know about wot tho.
 
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