Performance Questions 225 vs. 360

Slant 6 Engines

  1. kittypancake

    kittypancake Well-Known Member

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    It's kinda funny...I also think there's no comparison between the two...but for a completely different reason! :)
     
  2. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Well, I am an engineer :D

    But yes. I understand. Maybe I just haven't been finding good deals on 360s. I haven't found any as cheap as a few hundred bucks.



    After reading a few more threads, I see some people saying that Supercharging is easier to set up that Turbocharging. If there's less fabrication and work and plumbing, is there at least a comparable price?
     
  3. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

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    How come you're asking us mere mortals here? I'm just a lowly dealer tech, I don't know much except how to sell you stuff you don't need...

    They're out there. Probably more 318s but 360s can be had cheap. Think about it, 1974-1989 LA production then the Magnum to '04, there's literally MILLIONS of 'em out there. Bet you could walk out your door and stub your toe on one laying in the dirt.

    Dude, you are all over the place. Supercharging? If you don't have the scratch for a 360 then you ain't got the scratch for a huffer.

    See here.
     
  4. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    They don't cover much in the way of Mopar in my civil classes haha. (Though we have touched on Ford multiple times in my ethics classe. Exploding gas tanks seem to be a popular feature on their cars.)


    So even the much newer 360s will work completely fine? I did not know that. I thought that it would need to be close to the same year.


    Right. I apologize for my seemingly scatterbrained approach. Like I said. I'm about to pull the engine and do something, and I'm just trying to get information on all my potential options and their costs. I wasn't aware supercharging was so expensive.

    Thank you all for being patient with my and answering my questions!
     
  5. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    there's a few issue when swapping in 5.9L Magnum but nothing major but the best thing about them there the highest HP 360 at a net 245hp and on a dyno with 4bbl and headers 320hp and you can find low K runners for not to much money.
     
  6. /6 Matt

    /6 Matt 30 Degrees Crooked

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    Here's what to do. Take the slant and have the head worked over. Shave THE BLOCK, NOT THE HEAD to reach a true 9:1 compression. Recurve the distributor and you'll have the 360's 175hp with much lower rpms. And the torque. Oh my sweet jesus the hot, sticky badass torque. :burnout:

    The slant was rated 149hp stock. Don't forget that it has a 4.125" stroke, longer than any other factory chrysler engine ever built. 215 ft-lbs of torque. Stock.

    You're already ahead of the 360. $$$ wise.

    Now put a 2 barrel Carter on it, a mild cam and some Dutra Dual exhaust manifolds (featured on memike's Valiant) and do a full 2" dual exhaust with some turbo mufflers. An X-pipe would be good too. 3.23 gears and you should be able to blow away any Honda my peers are driving while still getting better gas mileage than the 360 and still have great highway characteristics. Not to mention, nobody will beleive you have a 6 banger under the hood and people at car shows will appreciate the uniqueness.

    Long live the /

    Do I still agree that a potent slant six will never be able to keep up to a potent smallblock? Yes. And don't forget, the slant will never sound quite as good. Something about having 2 less pistons firing every 720 degrees is the issue there.
     
  7. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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  8. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    That was, I believe, the numbers I compared for the 360 and the 225.
     
  9. /6 Matt

    /6 Matt 30 Degrees Crooked

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    Oh yeah................... The 360 would be net hp wouldn't it?

    My arguement is now null and void. :D
     
  10. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    You can build a respectable slant car,but it ain't cheap. 4bbl carb/intake,headers,cam,oversize valves,head work.Add it up,it ain't cheap.
    I know,I have one. But I also have a 360 car,and it will WAX the slant car.
    Heck,I had a 318 car that would wax all but the most tricked out slant cars.
    Not sure if this is helping you,but dollar for dollar,if you want a respectable car,go V8.
     
  11. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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  12. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    RE your 360 V8 car: Will it wax THIS one?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzUfV8iTpQ"]Turbo Slant Six 10.74 @ 127 mph 7-19-10 - YouTube[/ame]

    or this one?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxRmoDgsdY"]Turbo charged Slant 6 11.02 @ 120.56 - YouTube[/ame]

    Neither of those cars has a roller cam, nor fuel injection, nor high compresssion (it's 9:1,) nor deep gearing (they both have 2.73:1 ring and pinions.)

    Neither car turns over 5,500 rpm.

    Both cars have a smooth idle and drive-ability pretty much like a stock /6 because the cams in these engines only have about 220 degrees of duration, and very little overlap.

    They both have one Holley 4bbl carb, and ignition sytems that are very close to "stock." That works because the RPM's are never much over 5,500.

    They each have a homemade header, a ported head and 1.75"/1.5" valves.

    If you want a fast slant six, you either need to put it in a very light car (like Guzzi Mark did, with his normally-aspirated 225; 2,350 pounds) OR use some sort of power adder, like a turbo, supercharger, ot nitrous. )

    The fact is, the bores in this /6 are so small, there is just not room for really big valves. The head was designed for 170 cubic inches, and Ma Mopar did NOTHING to increase the breathing ability of it when the displacement was increased 35-percent (to 225.)

    NOTHING.

    You can add speed parts that are aimed at enhancing the breathing ability, such as headers, bigger valves, a 4-barrel intake system, and raise the compression to 12:1, but it is never going to make really good power, (over 2 hp/cu. in.,) normally-aspirated, because the breathing potential is just not there.

    The two guys in the You Tube videos are both making around 500 horsepower and doing it without "heroic measures," such as roller cams, high rpms or even fuel injection.

    They both use Wiseco forged pistons, and K-1 (198 dimensions) rods and a stock forged crank.

    Other than spending about $1,400.00 for a ported, big-valve head, the pistons and rods are the only expensive items in their engines.

    I'm not contending that a 500hp slant six is cheap to build, but the parts list is not populated with thngs like high-dollar roller rockers, custom pushrods, and expensive valve springs.

    A new, Holley 4150, 650cfm carb, built to "blow-thru" specs is not cheap, and neither is a Snowperformanxe Boost Cooler alky-water injector, but an expensive, hi-stall converter is not necessary, like it might be with the choice of a radical-cammed 360.

    The fact that originally, the /6 was designed to be built out of aluminum (and, 60.000 were, before Ma pulled the plug,) caused the infrastructure of that engine to be built super-strong, almost like a Diesel. The main bearings, for instance, are the same sixe as the mains in a 426 Hemi.

    That set of circumstances make it a natural for utilizing forced induction, as large amounts of boost don't seem to hurt it. The cars in the You Tube videos both routinely, run over 25 pounds of boost.


    I think that 25 pounds of boost would not be a very good idea on my Vortech supercharged 360 Magnum.:prayer::prayer::prayer:

    FABO member Pishta's low-boost /6 project is a low-cost alternative to conventional hop-up methods of increasing the power out of the /6, but I think that the 500HP cars in the videos are not unusually expensive bullds, considering the amount of performance they achieve.

    Add up the costs associated with building a normally-asprated small block that will go 127mph in the quarter mle in an A-Body that hasn't been "lightened,"(the one in the video hasn't.)

    It won't be cheap.
     
  13. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    You could always throw on a turbo on a 360
     
  14. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    But, that won't be cheap, either.

    Speed costs money... how EVER you get it.:banghead:
     
  15. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    But it unfair to compare turbo /6 against N/A sb
     
  16. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Well for the purpose of my thread. It's kind of not >.> I already have a /6. I was simply asking, for the kind of money it would take for me to drop a 360 in my duster (let's low-ball it at $1000), what could I do to my /6, and would it be worth the cash? Would I get a notable increase in horsepower? So, if you can turbo one for less than 1k, then for my purposes, yes. It is a fair comparison.

    Sure one day I'd love to have a turbo'd 360 in one of my vehicles. That day is not nigh, however.
     
  17. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    I always want to build a early a body dead stock looking granny car /6 car sleeper, I don't want to talk you out of doing up your /6 which I think is Kool I want to build a 400+hp 273 a magnum engine would make more sense for both of us but sometimes it more fun to do things the hard way Post #36 is 225 I've put through my dyno program.
     
  18. breakstuff

    breakstuff Well-Known Member

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    No shit.
     
  19. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    Bill,
    Your argument is old and tired. I would have a lot more respect for you if you used video of your "own" build,instead of the same old videos you trot out every time this issue comes out. I'm still waiting to see any kind of time slip out of you. I don't think I have seen your car make it out of the driveway yet. And how long have you been working on that thing ?

    The fact of the matter is the OP is not going to build a turbo,and will stay naturally aspirated.
    You build a naturally aspirated /6 Bill, and I will build a junkyard 360.
    Be ready to put your lipstick on Bill,because you will be kissing my tail lights all day long ! Lol
     
  20. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    I don't think you are reading my posts very closely, Johnny, because I harp on the fact that ther cylinder head that a slant six has to work with cannot be modified to make much power, and that's a fact.

    You are right in tht a normally-aspirated slant 6 is no match for a 360.

    I never contended that it was.

    But, you never answered my question that pertained to whether your 360 will outrun the two slant sixes in the videos. Will it?

    I doubt it.

    I have been working on my own slant six/turbo car for three years and it is finally ready for the strip, I think.

    Believe me, it seems like eons that I have been working on this car, and three years IS a long time, but health isssues and the fact that we had to build a whole car (it was in terrible shape) has turned it into a long-term project.

    But, whether it is MY car or somebody else's, what difference does it make to my argument as to how fast they can be made to go? The fact is, those cars are both 500 HP cars and are both faster than most normally-aspirated 360s in the quarter. It's expensive to go tens with a N/A small block.

    I am anxious to see how quick my car will be, and I hope it doesn't take me another YEAR to get it sorted out. This is my first slant six car and my first turbo car, so the learning curve will undoubttedly be pretty steep for me.

    My engine is a clone of the engines in those two cars, so if I am any kind of a mechanic at all, it should run something like those two cars do. It weighs 2,680 without driver. The Dart in that video weighs 3,300.

    Again let me say one more time, I make NO claims for the performance potential of a N/A slant six. They need help in the breathing dept... big time. If yourrs wasn't fast, that's probably why.

    I'll let you know when I get a timeslip on it. I gayroanteee...

    Might be sometime this fall. I sure hope so!
     
  21. replicaracer43

    replicaracer43 Grumpy Old Man

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    Basically, whats being said, is that a slant isnt gonna outrun a 360, unless you have a power adder.... A junkyard magnum 360 swap should be cheaper than putting a turbo or blower on that slant...
     
  22. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Says who?

    Either way, let's not argue in the thread. >.>
     
  23. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Thank you. That's what I've been waiting to hear.
     
  24. Revhendo

    Revhendo Master ACME Tech

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    A modified, blown smaller engine with rpm limitations built to the power level of a "stock" unmodified larger engine. Which will be more reliable in the long run? Let your inner engineer work with the cost analysis. Driveline is moot. 904 small block uses same driveshaft as 904 /6. Sure you have the base cost of the trans for the V8 to add in, but are you going to pump up the power of the slanty and not address the trans?

    About the brakes....
    Are you folks really building up power and not upgrading your brakes? Sure it's nice to be faster than a Smart car, but you better be able to stop when that idiot ahead of you dynamites their brakes.
     
  25. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Point taken.

    About the brakes though, I thought the issue was the extra weight added to the car, not the power. If I weigh the same amount, then my brakes should stop me at the same speed, no matter how long it took me to get up to 60 miles an hour. (Now, if I were driving faster all of the time because I had a ramped up engine, then yes. Higher speeds would require longer distances to stop because of the brakes.)

    All in all, thanks for the info guys. I've learned a lot.
     
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