Performance Questions 225 vs. 360

Slant 6 Engines

  1. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,888
    Likes Received:
    2413
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Location:
    So Cal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    Oh,don't get your panties all bunched up.
    Bill and I have had this same spirited debate for some time. No one is arguing.
    You talked about building on a small budget. Go ahead and build a turbo slant,and then tell us how that works out for you.
    Plus it's going in a 74 Duster. That's a heavy car.
    As many have stated...360
     
  2. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Location:
    Clinton, MS
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    That's why I made the thread. To ask if it was financially feasible. I had searched ebay and googled and looked at other people's cost estimates in their threads, but wanted to be sure that there wasn't a simpler or cheaper option.

    I didn't mean to come off urked. Sorry. I was just afraid this was going to turn into a flame war. I forget sometimes that this board is a bit more mature than some of the internet forums I belong to x-x I could just see this going into a downward spiral rapidly. You have my apologies.
     
  3. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,888
    Likes Received:
    2413
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Location:
    So Cal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    You have nothing to apologize for,you did nothing wrong. It's all good.
    The /6 vs V8 debate always gets somewhat heated. I can only speak from my experiences with the two. I spent pretty good money on both these builds,and they both run very well. They both have some of the best,off the shelf speed parts available. The slant is fun in a nostalgia kind of way,and yes everybody has a V8. But if we are talking about a shear performance comparison between the two,its not even close. The V8 will Dust the lil slant every time. Hands down.
    So,the choice is yours.

    Either way I wish you the best.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. rmchrgr

    rmchrgr Skate And Destroy

    Messages:
    3,453
    Likes Received:
    170
    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2008
    Location:
    Stamford, CT
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    Realistically, how much do you imagine this project is going to cost regardless of which engine you choose? have you researched parts/prices etc and come up with an actual budget? I would suggest at least outlining whatever "it" is on paper and looking in to price/availability/viability.

    Either way, you ain't getting a rebuilt engine done for under $3,000 including all the surrounding stuff necessary to make it all work together. With that in mind, you'd be a lot closer to reliable performance with the V8, end of story. I don't think we can make it any clearer.

    Think about it - any boosted engine is gonna need fairly good ring seal, no matter what the performance goal. That's at least a re-ring and hone job. You also want the valves to seal so that's a valve job on the head and probably new valves, cam, springs, lifters, gaskets, blah blah blah. Not much aftermarket support for the Slant so again, on your own.

    With a decent rebuild job and really basic bolt ons, the 360 will easily make 300 hp. Standard 360 rebuild parts are REALLY cheap, like almost SBC cheap but not quite. I'd like to know the cost difference between a basic rebuild for these two engines, all machine work being equal. Be a good comparison.

    Read here for some basic combos. Study what parts they are using for each and look at the cost.

    We're telling you to go with the V8 for a reason, you will get BETTER VALUE FOR YOUR MONEY with the 360 or even a roller 318 for that matter. Seriously, forget the Slant. That's for guys who've been messing with them for years and are trying to prove a point. Again, not worth it in every respect. You will not look back with the 360.
     
  5. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Location:
    Clinton, MS
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    Thanks. Good info. I'll do some research and see what I can find. 3k on engine upgrade isn't feasible yet though, so perhaps I will just paint and clean up the one I have, then swap something else in down the road when I have plenty of money to dress it up how I want.



    EDIT: Btw, gorgeous engines, Johnny Dart. Were those for personal vehicles? Or do you build engines to sell?
     
  6. Revhendo

    Revhendo Master ACME Tech

    Messages:
    13,012
    Likes Received:
    15835
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Location:
    SoCal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    This might be the best plan. Clean up and run what you got. Then plan for the future.

    Kinda like the difference between building what you got and building what you really want.
     
  7. Idaho

    Idaho FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    256
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2006
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    What's missing here is a $ estimate to get the slant to his goal.

    I think a big factor is going to be the fab factor of bulding a slant. More time involved. Could be a lot of fun if you like that kind of thing. If you like being a different and don't mind that a slant doesn't tickle the ears, I'd go for it. There's enough guys doing it here to show the way.
     
  8. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,379
    Likes Received:
    1114
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ontario
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    Originally you only wanted 175hp which 65hp over stock add headers, cam, intake should get you close and head work would put you over if you want more than a warmed over /6 I guess turbo it or go V8.
     
  9. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    17
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2011
    Location:
    Clinton, MS
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    And full circle again XD

    Do you have any suggestions for brands/types on headers or cams? Just while I'm taking notes.
     
  10. Revhendo

    Revhendo Master ACME Tech

    Messages:
    13,012
    Likes Received:
    15835
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Location:
    SoCal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    Check MeMike's Victoria out. That is one clean slanty and as good an example of any driver style hopped up six popper.
     
  11. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,888
    Likes Received:
    2413
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Location:
    So Cal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    Thanks
    Personal vehicles...360 1970 Dart. 225 1965 Dart

    Something else to remember is the power to weight ratio.
    Pretty much every quick slant is in a lightweight early A.
    You are working with a much heavier 74 Duster. Big difference.
     
  12. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

    Messages:
    4,006
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Location:
    Conway, Arkansas
    Local Time:
    9:16 AM
    Johnny,

    The fact that you "forgot" to add the hairdryer to your /6 is probably why you keep telling us that your 360 is faster than your slant six. If you had built the slanty with forced induction, the story might have a different ending.

    I'm basing that on your reluctance to answer my quetion (three times, now) as to whether your 360 will outrun Tom Wolfe's turbo'd /6 in the video ('70 Dart, 11.02, at 3,300 pounds + driver weight.)

    I'm taking that as a "no." Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    As I said, that is a 9:1 compression car with 1 four-barrel with a flat tappet cam and a homemade header. NOTHING exotic at all on the car. It has a 2.73:1 rear axle ratio.


    I hope and pray that our car will stay within shouting distance of it once we get it sorted out. Our engine is, as I said, a copy-cat version of his.

    My other car is a 1972 Valiant that has a stock (except for the cam) 360 Magnum (see pix) with a Vortech supercharger and made 445 RWHP on a chassis dyno. It has run 9.69 @ 106mph in 1,000 feet (equates to about 11.6 @ 118 in the quarter-mile) but that was with a greasy track, a 3.55 Ring & Pinion, and some worn-out 8" slicks that were spinning all the way through first gear. My 60-foot time was only 1.81-sec... really poor. I have, since then, installed a limited-slip 4.10 and added some 9"-wide slicka, so I think it will probably pick up .3 or so in the quarter. We'll see,

    But, even if it picks up that much, Tom Wolfe's equal-weight /6 car will still outrun me.

    That is with 10 pounds of boost, the maximum I dare run with stock (cast) pistons.

    I'd love to see you add a turbo to your slant six and see if your 360 will still outrun it,

    That would be interesting!:blob:

    Thanks for the discussion, and no, we don't argue... we discuss. You get more done that way.

    Here are some pictures of the two cars of mine, in question:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Idaho

    Idaho FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    2,601
    Likes Received:
    256
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2006
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
    If he keeps it simple, a 318 or 360 can be done for well under 3K. A junkyard 5.9 is an easy way. Numerous members have done it and made power well above his goal for about half that. It could be done for substantially less. There's examples in this thread:

    http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=209590

    That does not however include upgrading the rear diff. That can be done for about $400, with an 8.8 with bonus rear discs. Not sure on the cost of a V8 tranny and K member. I'll make a guess and say $300 if he's patient about finding deals.

    Sounds like a slant can make his goal of 200 HP without a turbo. Nobody has given an estimate of cost to do so.

    Why all this talk about 500 HP engines? Not what he's shooting for.

    Bill, that's some hairy lookin wiring on that Valiant! :D You are a turbo fanatic. I like it. I'm watching to see what the Dart will do.
     
  14. sleeper-oem

    sleeper-oem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    432
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    Iam building a slant because i want to its a bucket list thing cost ouch
    1200 port work
    other engine work 1200
    pistons and rods etc 1200
    superhcarger 6000
    dizzy 400
    wires 150
    cam 150
    rewelded k frame doing myself 400 + elsewhere
    Hotchkiss tvs 2200
    brakes 2000 front and rear
    rearend and goodies 1600
    transmission 700
    mis expen 1200
    total
    tires and rims 1600

    totally when done i will have easy 16,000 in setup
    you cant build a car without the things that make it run also well you can but saftey and all over performance are key
    or you can buy this 5,000$ 360 crate http://www.indyheads.com/newla.html with suspension and brake and rearend upgrades and save money and have a car that is fun but less extravegent or as some would say a stupid choice by me. But its my money if i want to put 20,000 in a colt its my perogotive as it yours. Have fun and enjoy your Abody
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]360 Magnum With Indy MA-X Cast Iron Heads**** Your Best Value Under $5,000.00! ****
     
  15. salinasjoel

    salinasjoel Learning Daily

    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    55
    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2011
    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    My father in law has that crate in his Plymouth its solid
     
  16. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

    Messages:
    4,006
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Location:
    Conway, Arkansas
    Local Time:
    9:16 AM
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    I talk about the 500hp slant sixes because

    1. I think it's about as easy to build a 500HP slant Six as it is a 300HP slant six and faster is always better, in my warped mind.

    2. Johnny Dart (the guy with the beautiful engines!!!) has a slant that won't outrun his 360, and I think that MAYBE one of these 500 slants MIGHT get the job done. Maybe not...

    But, it doesn't have to be "slow" just because it's a /6.

    My wiring skills are not... (not "skills" obviously.)

    I am embasrrassed and ashamed of that wiring, and need to fix it. One of these days, I will. In the meaantime, no one has been electrocuted

    Insofar as my being a turbo fanatic, maybe I am... but it just seems like the ONLY way to get real, meaningful performance out of a slant six. I love those leaning towers of power and they have SUCH potential... IF they can just be made to breathe.

    They are hamstrung by the 170 cylinder head, though, and forced induction, which they seem to be MADE for, works so well on them... making an end-run around the built-in problems they all have... it just seems like the right thing to do!

    Steve Nitti's centrifugally supercharged slant is also fast... so, a turbo is not the only way to salvation for these little engines. ANYTHING to cram that air in there will work... because they can take it!

    That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!!

    Bill,
     
  17. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,888
    Likes Received:
    2413
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Location:
    So Cal
    Local Time:
    8:16 AM
     
  18. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,379
    Likes Received:
    1114
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ontario
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    I'm sure if Johnny Dart added 150 shot of Nos that would get the job done. That's why I said earlier its unfair to compare a turbo /6 against N/A v8 if do the similar mods to each engine the v8 gonna win, you do /6 cause you want to do one its never a better choice unless there's a racing class out there with rules that would favor a /6.
     
  19. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

    Messages:
    4,006
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Location:
    Conway, Arkansas
    Local Time:
    9:16 AM
     
  20. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

    Messages:
    4,006
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Location:
    Conway, Arkansas
    Local Time:
    9:16 AM
    Look at what you are saying:

    That a 360 cubic inch engine would need a 150 shot of N20 to beat an engine that is only 5/8ths as big. if it had a turbo.

    Of course, there are 360s that are built for racing that can run ALL OVER that turbo'd slant six; HE'S the one who said that HIS 360 was a lot faster than his 225 slant six.

    Of course it is. With an extra 135 cubic inches, why wouldn't it be?

    But if an "equalizer" (hairdryer) were added to the six, the picture may change...

    That's all I'm sayin'.
     
  21. Bulldozer

    Bulldozer free ice cream sandwiches

    Messages:
    15,522
    Likes Received:
    2327
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Location:
    behind the wheel
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    oh the good ole' days , its threads like this i wish Stroker was still here LMAO
     
  22. Bulldozer

    Bulldozer free ice cream sandwiches

    Messages:
    15,522
    Likes Received:
    2327
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Location:
    behind the wheel
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    you want dirt cheap >>>

    73 duster slant six 3 speed car of which the slant six was pulled and tossed in a ditch

    318/727 off CL for 400 bucks
    cheap ass summit headers 120 bucks (optional) though you would need the correct manifolds

    conversion mounts 80 bucks
    88 lebaron radiator and shroud 40 bucks
    performer intake , just because 75 bucks (optional)
    1406 edelbrock carb just because 60 bucks(optional)
    HEI ignition 50 bucks just because(optional)
    drive shaft shortened ONLY because im using a 727 otherwise the slant shaft works with the V8 904 65 bucks
    existing wiring, throttle cable and trans mounts



    NOTHING ELSE was touched...nothing


    i have just under a grand for the entire deal, including all new hoses, belt and fresh fluids.

    this car is daily driven going on 2 years strong and it has taken a beating. it stops great on the drums, and ive tested them. for what it is , this little car boogies on down the road and is fast for what it is...bone stock 67 318 with a 4 barrel and headers.

    bang for the buck? this is it. that ole slant could never dream of running this good especially for the money.
    i did this by myself in 8 hours ....running

    no, im not bashing the 6 cylinder
     

    Attached Files:

  23. madmax/6

    madmax/6 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Location:
    Garage, USA
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    I would rather have a fast 15 sec slant over a slow 15 sec 360.I LOVE getting lined up against the v8s.Yea with a 90 shot my car runs 10.57 at 128mph,,NA so far my best is 11.42,so slants can run.Guzzi Mark
     
  24. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,379
    Likes Received:
    1114
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Location:
    Ontario
    Local Time:
    11:16 AM
    Bill Dedman I think I know your coming from now you can take a near stock /6 throw on a turbo and beat most V8 and have a pretty Kool ride for a reasonable amount of dollars, but your still comparing apples to oranges.
     
  25. nuttyprof

    nuttyprof Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,044
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2010
    Location:
    York, Nebraska
    Local Time:
    10:16 AM
    that's because the question was the comparison of apples to oranges!
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.