Performance Questions 225 vs. 360

Slant 6 Engines

  1. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Or dollars to dollars.
     
  2. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    Bill,
    So exactly how are you helping the original poster again ?
    Either help the original poster,or build a car that runs.
    Until then all your hot air is...well hot air.












    .
     
  3. srixon4406

    srixon4406 TURBO TOAD

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    Ain't that the truth :finga:
     
  4. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    This is the crux of the Original Poster's first note in this thread:

    "I'm open to any kind of modification suggestions. I'm going to have the engine out to clean it up, paint it, probably rebuilt it, and generally get it looking nice. So I'll already be in a great position to do a little hot-rodding on it. I've read that turbocharging the engine makes a pretty big difference. Any suggestions on a good economical rebuild that involves that?

    Essentially, as I said, I don't really want to invest the time and money if it doesn't mean being able to outdo one of the small block v8s at a comparable price. I like thinking outside the box, and I certainly know that the slants can be made to whip up on the larger engines, but I was curious if they could do that at an economical price. Thank you in advance for all of your help."

    I showed him examples of what he could expect by building a turbo motor, through the videos on You Tube and gave him examples of different ways to accomplish that.

    I pointed out that the engines that were demonstrated in those videos were not loaded with high-tech, expensive paraphrenaila such as roller cams, roller rockers, electronic fuel injection nor did they use elaborate (read "expensive") ignition systems.

    Pretty basic stuff.

    He's an intelligent guy and I'm sure he came away from those discussions with the realization that the facts presented were not not just a lot of "hot air."

    If I posted ANYTHING that wasn't true, please tell me what it was and I'll apologize to everyone concerned.

    Insofar as MY car is concerned, I told you why it has taken so long to get it "operational," and that we're making progress with it. Today, we took it on the freeway to ascertain the tuning aspects with a F.A.S.T. wideband data logger, and to try out the Snowperformance alcohol/water injector (BoostCooler.)

    The 02 sensor responded with readings in the 11.5-12-5 range (a little lean for my tastes) but the Boost Cooler was maladjusted to the point that it was literally "putting out the fire" on the plugs, becaause we were runing the larger of two jets that had sent us, and had it starting spraying at 5 psi, which turns out, is way too early. That was our fault and has been corrected.


    The hardest part of a turbo installation like this (IMHO) is the "tuning" after all the hard parts are installed. That's where we are at right now, and with zero experience, I don't think we're going to get all this figured out in a day or two.

    But the fact is, when it comes to this discussion, how MY car runs is entirely inconsequential RE: the facts I have presented. The videos prove what can be done, regardless of how well or how poorly MY car runs. Don't kill the messenger just because you don't agree with the message.

    With all the evidence presented here with regard to the difficulty in making good power out of a normally-aspirated slant six, and how MUCH power is available with a hairdryer, on that motor, do you think it makes any sense at all to build one without forced induction?

    Yes, Guzzi Mark's car would seem to be the exception to the rule until you consider his CONSIDERABLE expertise in getting power out of this motor (not everbody can make the kind of power he does,) and how very LIGHT his car is (2,350 pounds.) That's a good thousand pounds lighter than the average Duster/Dart of the 1970s.

    I hope that somebody got some good out of all this. I am a 2-finger-typist and it takes me forever to compose one of these pieces.

    I'd hate to think it was all just for naught...:banghead:
     
  5. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    I am sincere in stating that I don't have the slightest idea what you mean by that.

    I though we were talking about "bang for the buck."

    How is what I suggested not "bang for the buck"???

    Can you explain that for me, please?

    I'd appreciate it.
     
  6. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Thank you! :)
     
  7. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    That's pretty cheap all right, butr how much bang did you get for your buck (how fast is it?)

    This guy put a Buick turbo (175$ at a junkard) added a 4-bbl l carb and a Clifford intake and ran 12.95 @ 104 with what is basically, the engine you threw away.

    Is your car faster than that?

    http://tinyurl.com/93npyrl
     
  8. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    Pretty Much !!!!!!
     
  9. Charrlie_S

    Charrlie_S Well-Known Member

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    I need to get a dog(s) in this fight. I consider myself one of the "kings" of "frugal" slant sixers. Just look at my signature. My 66 Cuda is street legal, total cost including the car, about $5,000. My 66 Valiant (drag car only) was running mid 13's first weekend out, and cost about $1,500 to build (including the car). My 65 Valiant was a NHRA stock eliminator car, that got a turbo added, with full exhaust, to be street legal. The turbo stuff could be done today for about $500-$600.
     
  10. Lonewolf3165

    Lonewolf3165 Living the Dream!

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    The idea of building a slant 6 engine to produce the same horsepower as a 360 at whatever level, stock 360HP or a 500HP engine, and be cost effective in comparison is unrealistic. The slant 6 engine, while beffy & durable indeed in stock trim, will certainly show signs of failure or required upgrading & maintenance to survuive on 20# boost. You're talking alot of cylinder pressure & heat build up. Also the fabrication time needed to install a turbo has to be considered. Induction piping & intercooler(another cost left out by the pro-/6 posters), custom exhaust, lubrication plumbing, & you wouldn't put all that into it without upgrading the rod & main bolts/ studs would you? A rebuild would have to be a given also. Forged pistons? Carb & intake manifold? You're not thinking about blowing it all through a little 1 bbl are you?
    The OP didn't express the desire to build a 500HP 360, but since the comparisions were made as to cost effectiveness, you certainly can build a stock bottom end 360 to produce 500HP & a set of iron heads w/ mild porting W/ an inatke, carb & headers that can easily be street driven within a reasonable budget. Probably using a bunch of used parts from this site or ebay to lower cost more. Trans & rear upgrades would probably be on the list of upgrades for both builds so thats a wash.
    To each his own. I appreciate the guys that take a 1 off combo & build it to run well. Unlike the majority of posters here I also like the guys that build the Hondas & other imports to run good #s. It's all hot rodding. But as we ALL know it almost always costs you 2X as much to do something as you originally think. IMO the parts & techniques are there for the V8 build over the six from a time & money standpoint.
     
  11. Bulldozer

    Bulldozer free ice cream sandwiches

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    probably not LOL , you know im not going to argue the /6 turbo vs V8 with you Bill, because , well, i cant because i havent had it down the track . ive always been impressed with numbers a turbo /6 can lay down. my slant may have hit the ditch, but it actually ended up going to a good home and put back into service. my post was more or less just an example as to how cheap and easy the 6 to V8 swap really is without any modifications and is daily driven.
     
  12. Charrlie_S

    Charrlie_S Well-Known Member

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    Fabrication time for a turbo slant, need not be any more then converting to a V-8. No intercooler on mine. Stock cast iron 1 bbl intake and exhaust manifolds. I used a 170 slant and a turbo of a 168 CID Corvair (junkyard in 1979). Home made intake/carb mount on the inlet of the turbo. Totally stock short block, just .020 stock cast pistons. Oil to the turbo, a 1/4 inch line from the oil pressure sender location. Oil return is a short piece of number 10 braided line from the turbo to a fitting in the side of the oil pan. At 10 PSI you don't need anything fancy.
    Here is a link to some old pictures of my engine.
    http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/schmid.html
     
  13. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Yeah, you're probably right; for some folks, it's a "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" kind of deal... LOL!

    To each his own...
     
  14. Johnny Dart

    Johnny Dart Well-Known Member

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    It's all good Bill,believe it or not, I'm pulling for you. :D

    I don't want you to think I am a /6 hater. If I was,I would have yanked the slant out of my 65,and thrown it in a ditch long ago.Actually,if my car wasn't
    1-23 built,it would be in a ditch.lol But that's besides the point. I have built a fun
    Slant car,with pretty impressive performance for what it is. With the 4spd it's a hoot,and I'm happy just the way it sits.

    But if we are comparing apples to apples, my 360 car is a whole different beast.
    I'll just leave it at that.

    Why do I have this feeling that the original poster is looking at Nova's on Craigslist ? :D
     
  15. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    You have brought up some good points and I agree with most of them, but I'd ask you to consider the factors inolved in the "used parts" 500HP 360 in terms of reliability. You're not going to make 500 hp with cast iron heads out of a 360 ar 6,000 rpm, I think. Gonna take more RPM, I'd guess.
    Repeated trips to 7,000 RPM will kill a "junkyard" motor in a short amount of time. And, yes, the 20+ pounds of boost necessary to get 500 HP out of a turbo /6 surely won't do anything to extend its life, as well.

    But the 5,500 RPM red line will.

    Those engines don't need to rev very high to make good power, and that helps make up for the heat issue you brought up. To what extent, I don't know.

    The /6 engines that do make 500 HP have forged pistons and aftermarket (K-1) rods, with quality rod bolts and ARP "special-order" 220,000 psi ARP head studs to try tp keep head gasket failure to a minimum. We didn't O-ring ours, and I am pretty sure that was a mistake that will come back to bite us, at some point.

    Like I said; you pays your money and you takes your choice...](*,)
     
  16. Sully1190

    Sully1190 Look. It's a Gold Duster.

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    Never :p I may get myself a Ford on day, but not a Chevy haha.

    I've actually been following the thread, still trying to glean what I can. I'm probably just going to rebuild and paint up my slant for now, but one day (maybe one day soon! Who knows?) I might go to work putting a turbo on it. It seems fun and interesting.

    I enjoy the fervor.
     
  17. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    To the OP'er you should of called the tread "how to get V8 power out of /6" since no ones given you detailed mods, like which cam, header, carb, turbo etc..... Too use.
     
  18. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    The man is an engineer. He said that.

    THAT is reason enough not to be looking at Novas.

    You say you're pretty happy with your slant six just the way it is, and I have no quarrel with that because, after all, it IS YOUR CAR! Build it the way YOU want it. And, it looks like you did. It's arguably one of the nicest-looking slants I've seen, and I've looked at a few!

    I really like the black headers and how they contrast with the orange engine paint.

    The only thing I would do different is, supply the missing hairdryer so it didn't have to take a back seat to your 360 at a stoplight.

    That is possible for not a lot of money if you're a careful buyer. Your leaning tower of power probably already has a lot of the parts necessary to make it into a real pressurized performer; I'm not sure what all you've done to it besides what we can see in the pictures.

    You'd need a turbocharger, turbo-mount header, cam change, a set of new solid lifters, a blow-thru 4bbl carb (you already have the manifold) and a ported head with 1.75" X 1.5" valves, a carb hat with plumbing, and not much else. If you wanted to make 300 HP, a Snowperformance Boost Cooler alky/water injector) would be a worthwhile expense, since preventing detonation would be high on your list of priorities of important things to do. That injection system would allow you to run 15 pounds of boost instead of the 10 you'd be limited to without it (this is assuming stock, cast pistons.)

    Buick (junkyard) Grand National turbos come with an integral waste gate and are perfectly-sized for this motor. I think Tom Wolfe paid about $175 for his. The Buicks are 3.8 liters; a slant six with a .065 overbore is 3.76 liters... close enough.

    FABO member PISHTA, has a method of turbo-attachment that doesn't involve welding on the stock manifold, and needs very little time to fabricate. He just takes a 2.25"-dia. piece of u-bend
    tubing and attaches a flange that mates up to the stock exhaust manifold on one end, and to the turbo on the other and presto, you have your turbo manifold/mount and it is cheap and quick.

    I'm sure he'd post a pic of it if we asked him to.

    With the right cam choice (mild) and compression ratio (stock,) I think this suggested engine might give the 360 all it wants from a stoplight. :)

    If MY turbocharged slant six car won't do that to MY supercharged 360 (low 11s) I am going to be very disappointed in it.

    Talk's cheap; we'll see...:happy1:

    Thanks for listening!
     
  19. Idaho

    Idaho FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Here we go:


    Johnny :poke: Bill


    :happy1:
     
  20. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    That is a really good idea, I think.

    Here's the recipe for those 500HP motors that were in the videos, as closely as I can remember: Our motor is a copy-cat of these...

    Block: Early slant 6 block with forged crank

    Head: The one we used is an early "drool tube" head

    Block modifications:

    Bored .065" over, giving 233 cubic inches

    Pistons: Wiseco forged (about $500.00 as I recall)

    The pistons come with rings, but they have to be end-gapped: .025, top, .022" second...

    Rods: K-1 forged, 7+", stock 198 rod length (maybe $600; don't remember exactly)

    Crank; tturned .010"/.010" and balanced

    Cam: Bullet 210/210 degrees duration @ .050"-lift with115 degrees of lobe separation... totaa gross lift: .484" about $130, I think plus a set of new, stock, solid lifters

    Carb: Mine is a 750 model 4150 Holley double pumper that has been modified for blow-thru by a friend, who installed a boost-referenced power valve, plus other internal mods that are necessary for blow-thru. Everybody should have such a friend... The one on my Valiant (also blow-thru) cost me $900.00, new from the Carb Shop in Ontario CA.

    Intake manifold is the wrong one for this engine, but is a Hurricane from Aussie Speed. We need a short runner manifold, but the header on the car won't fit either a Clifford or an Offy. So, we'll run what we have, for the moment.

    Header is a home-built piece with 1.5"-diameter primary tubes and no attempt was made to equalize the runner length. That may not be very important on a hi-boost engine.

    Turbo is a Turbonetics 67mm and was given to us; no other info is available except an identical unit is running on his Grand National and works well (mid-tens,)

    Turbonetics waste gate (no info; set at 10 psi of boost, for now.)

    Spectre el-cheapo carb hat.

    Some sort of el-cheap blow off valve from e-bay... probably gonna regret that.

    Stock slant 6 distributor

    MSD 6-AL-II ignition with an MSD Blaster II coil

    440 neutral-balance B & M flex plate (one re-drilled hole)

    Cylinder head is an e-bay buy @ $700.00 plus shipping, Had been ported and had "big" 1.75" X 1.5" valves installed.

    3" down-pipe

    F.A.S.T. datalogging 02 sensor for mixture checking

    904 transmission with Turbo-Action, manual valve body, reverse pattern, Turbo-Action "Cheetah" floor shifter, 2.74:1 lfirst gear, gearset from a 99

    8.75" rear end out of a '67 B-body; narrowed the spring mounts 1" on each side. 3:55 Sure Grip; Yukon hi-strength, aftermarket axles

    Cal Tracs

    9"-wide, Hoosier bias-ply slicks, 26"-tall

    Driveshaft loop and roll bar

    3,500-stall Hughes converter

    Electric fan and water pump

    Snowperformance Boost Cooler alky/water injector

    Morsoso Accu-sump lubricationg oil accumulator

    Pan sump dropped 2.5"

    Pan has baffles and an extended pickup

    New 8mm Taylor spark plug wires

    NGK B9ES spark plugs gapped at .025"

    18 degrees total spark advance No typo; 18 degrees

    .022"-thick shim steeel head gasket

    Custom-ordered ARP head studs that are 220.000psi (regular ARP's are 180.000psi)

    STOCK rocker arms

    STOCK pushrods

    340 valve springs plus a pretty weak inner spring

    135 pounds on the seat; 320 open

    Lubrication system on ours is stock. Those other guys may have made some modifications; I don't know.


    If I left anything out, I'm sorry; I'm OLD and it's late... 2:00 a.m.

    Anything else, just ask. No speed secrets here!!!

    As you can see, this is pretty basic stuff; nothing esoteric or hi-tech at all...

    Anybody can buld one of these...

    Hope ours runs decent... We'll see!
     

    Attached Files:

  21. Lonewolf3165

    Lonewolf3165 Living the Dream!

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    Bill, I think you are kinda making my point here for me as to the cost vs power of the boosted 6 vs 360 to get to 500HP when looking at the build here. I'm not saying it can't be done & I'm certainly not knocking anybody who wants to go the turbo 6 cyl route, but there is a lot of time & parts not all that common when compared to the V8 swap. You can easily build a 360 to make 500hp using cast pistons & a set of ported "J" heads & bolt on parts.
    If it's purely based on economical factors I believe the advantage has to go to the V8 swap. Even in a build that goes for 300hp. Something does have to be said for a slant 6 & the wow factor.
    Again, I think it's really cool that guys take the road less traveled & make a slant 6 run it ass off! Thnking outside the box is what makes it better for all.
    Rock on my friend!
     
  22. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    Thanks for your interest and comments.

    My point with all this rambling has to do with money saved (that you will NOT have to spend) on the slant six car that is, if not absolutely NECESSARY for the V8 car, certainly money that will very likely to be spent to make the combination work well.

    Such items as as an 8.75", drop-out center section rear end...

    Those rear end housings are a lot more expensive for an A body than the 8.25" unit, a steup that will work well for the slant six car. Has nothing to do with strength; the 8.25" is probably plenty strong for either app, but the fact is, the turbo slant six seems to work well with gear ratios (final drive gearing) down in the "twos"... 2.76 or 2.93, both for drag racing and the hiway. The V8 car needs gearing that is use-specific' a 4.88 or 4.56 for drag racing and a 2.76 for the hiway. You really need two center sections for that motor, unless it's just a race car OR a hiway cruiser. The 8.25" housing makes changing ratios anything BUT quick and easy, so, you not only need an 8.75" housing (and an A-body one at that ($$$) but TWO "built" third members; one for the hiway and one for drag racing... IF you want the most out of your combination. Those two 500HP slant six cars' owners (in the videos) have told me emphartically, that their engines don't LIKE deep gearsets (like 4.10s, and such.) They run better at the drags with the numbers in the twos. Go figure...

    The premise for my contention as regards cost, was based on the original car being Granny's slant six car that was inherited when she shuffled off this mortal coil, which happens a lot. So, my numbers included a scenario in which you already had an engine and didn't have to buy a motor and the stuff necessary to swap it in.

    The stock converter will work okay with the turbo slant because they have gobs of low and medium-speed torque. I bought one becaause the transmission I used had a later-model input shaft and the stock converter wouldn't work with the later (larger) input shaft.


    Valve train items that work well for the turbo slant include lifters, pushrods and rockers. The V8 is going to be a relatively high RPM motor and will likely get some heavier duty pushrods, and roller rockers (aluminum.)

    The low RPM limit for the slant six doesn't even require anything other than steel retainers; at 5,500 rpm (the redline) exotic (read: "light") valvetrain pieces aren't going to be necessary.

    In the comparison of the actual "build" (excluding anyrthing else,) you may be right, because with the V8, no aftermarket alcohol injector will be necessary ($330.00) and the headers may be cheaper that fabbing a slant six turbo unit that will work to make 500 HP. You won't have to buy a waste gate, nor an intercooler, either.

    But, the rear end issue, along with valvetrain components for a high-rpm V8 may push the cost over the /6 figure. All things concidered, it may be close...

    The driveability issue should be a consideration, though, don't you think?

    Turbocharged engines don't work well with long-duration cams. That means the slant six turbo motor is going to get a cam that acts a lot like a stock one, just with more area under the curve and more lift.

    That gives it low and medium rpm torque characteristics much like a stock motor... no rumpity-rump, (sounding like it's about to die,) idle and greater gas mileage around town.

    That may be worth something; I dunno...

    At any rate, it's an interesting comparison, I think, and one worth considering when Granny's Duster falls into our hands... :blob:

    Thanks again for listening!!!:cheers:
     
  23. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    How's a turbo /6 car driving around town I mean just in normal driving would you basically be driving a stock powered /6 you would only have power when you kick it down. Where a 360 would have tons of bottom end right from idle and a 5.9 magnum with 4bbl intake and headers makes 320hp@4500 and 424tq@3700 not a high end screamer would work well with a 8.25 and highway gears and that's with a stock cam and add a mild cam and make 360+hp around 5000rpm and add a150hp shot of Nos if wanted to drag race. Not knocking your turbo /6 that's an impressive engine but 5.9 would be more fun in day to day driving and at the drag track where your engine shines would be as fast and cost a lot less.
     
  24. 273

    273 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the OP'er was looking for a drag car so instead of turbo i think a blower would be a better alternative would make your car feel like a V8 right from idle.
     
  25. Bill Dedman

    Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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    That's a good idea, I think.. The smaller, positive-displacement superchargers such as the one used on the T-Bird V-6 "Supercoupe" might be just the ticket, for this applicarion.

    The "3800"series of G.M. blowers are about the right size, too. I think there are a couple of them in different sizes/configurations.

    I hadn't suggested any of them because I am so ignorant of the specifics of their requirements as regards drive mechanisms (belts and pulleys) so, didn't really have anything in the way of useful suggestions to offer.

    But, anything in the way of forced induction will be a boon to the breathing of this engine, and that's what it needs; breathing capacity!

    It's a GREAT little engine that can make impressive power and live a long and healthy life if given some help in the air supply department.

    There's more than one way to skin a cat!!!:cheers:
     
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