Poor Little Cone Style

-
RustyRatRod said:
If I sold drive train parts for a living, I would not approve of the repair method either. No offense. I have actually grown to like and respect you. I think you are a top notch guy that does great work. Some of us have to make do. I said right from the rip that this was not a boni fide repair in any way shape form or fashion, but it works. Yet even after having said all that, I am bashed to death and made to look like a fool. From here on out, I am not doing another damn write up or contributing anything more. Count on it.
Click to expand...


RRR im not bashing you, BUT you are clearly still making/holding onto a mistake that MANY are apart of.

Whether or not the procedure is right, YOU in fact are gaining nothing over the powr lok style EXCEPT that for you to make it work again it WILL take you far far longer and be more involved than having a clutch PLATE style to rebuild.

.
 
RRR, don't change a thing pal,, lotsa us have learned and laughed, at/with you..

Some of us are from the generation of... " you ain't gonna get that Hemi to fit there"

to which we reply .. "pass me that bigger hammer"

don't change, and don't stop posting your "experience" ..
 
I found a way for RRR to keep his word and still contribute!!!:blob:. In his last post he wrote the "reason" that he didn't write anything. His reason was that "Last edited by RustyRatRod; 12-25-2013 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Cause I ain't contributing anymore." RRR is a man of his word and we would never want him to contribute "ANYMORE" just like I don't drink alcohol "ANYMORE"...I still drink the same amount I always have. We don't want RRR to contribute "ANYMORE" or "ANYLESS" than what he normally contributes. The amount of contributions from RRR has always been "JUST RIGHT"!! So I agree with RRR, he should not contribute ANYMORE than he usually contributes!! And he shouldn't contribute "ANYLESS" either.
From the distinguished law firm of "Dewey, Cheatham and Howe"!!!


PS - It's not what the books/experts say......It's "what works" that counts!!!! I've proved many an engineer wrong in my days , AND THEY HATE IT!!!!

Treblig
 

Attachments

  • th0BAT53QO.jpg
    16.6 KB · Views: 1,115
"The spring holds the pressure against the side gears or cones and that creates the bind"
No

"if, if there was such torque sensing then the wheel would never lose traction and it would build indefinitely or until the carrier split in half"

Doesn't explain anything and is not an accurate representation of the architecture or the reactionary forces at work.

It is variable torque sensing system on a crude level.
The forces are:
Rotational force of the ring gear applied to the carrier and thus the pins or pin and differential rate of rotation of the axles. The combined forces cause the spider gears to push or ramp the gears of the cones away. Since the spider gears try to push the cones away when there is a difference in axle rotation vs torque applied to the ring gear carrier via the driveshaft, a varying and massive amount of pressure is applied to the cones.
This causes the cones to be gouged and rammed into the taper in the carrier and increasingly tighter as more force is applied to the spider gear ramp faces.
 
YY1 said:
...and how about those horrible, weak *** 741 cases???
Click to expand...

How about those weak *** sure-grip 7.25's? I had one behind a mild 340 im my 65 A, survived about 10 high school driver months under that light car with 10 inch wide tires before the pinion ate the ring gear, didnt do a thing to the center section prior to the chunks getting swallowed up by the innerds...cone style was supposes to be better for street cars anyway.
 
RRR, please keep posting. Whether you correctly explain how something works or not, the resulting discussions are very informative. I am a mechanical engineer, but I've learned years ago that I know almost nothing of how many things actually work - but I don't care! I think a line in Joe Dirt was "Who knows how a Sure Grip [posi-trac] actually works, but it doesn't matter as long as it works!" sums it up best.

Best wishes to everyone who tries to help others!!!
 
68GTXMan, now there's an engineer who has enough self confidence to know that no one knows everything. My son is currently studying to be a mechanical engineer, I hope my son always has enough brains to know that he can never know everything. Sometimes the old timers (and sometimes younger folks) know a better way. And sometimes it doesn't even make sense...BUT IT WORKS!!! Of all things man has created and accomplished, the only things anyone cares about are those things that actually work!!!

Treblig in Tex
 
Rice Nuker said:
It is variable torque sensing system on a crude level.

The forces are:
Rotational force of the ring gear applied to the carrier and thus the pins or pin and differential rate of rotation of the axles. The combined forces cause the spider gears to push or ramp the gears of the cones away. Since the spider gears try to push the cones away when there is a difference in axle rotation vs torque applied to the ring gear carrier via the driveshaft, a varying and massive amount of pressure is applied to the cones.
This causes the cones to be gouged and rammed into the taper in the carrier and increasingly tighter as more force is applied to the spider gear ramp faces.
Click to expand...


NO, NO, No it does not.

The spiders MOVE no where and are Stuck on the cross pin, in order for what you wished happens the spiders would need a hyd assembly between the back side of the spider and the case to force it off and make or force the side gears OUT.
Not happening no matter how much you want to believe it, i have thought of making such a lock up design, but the expense is OOC and there are other types that do this.

You are somewhat confusing how a Powr Lok kinda operates somewhat in a far cruder example, however that isn't exactly whats happening either .....how does the powr lok make more force ???? When one wheel slips and the other is planted it causes the anchored wheel to hold the side gear and the pinion turns the ring and case and the spinning wheel and clutch pack pressure make the cross pin slide up a ramp making a bit more clutch pack pressure, still not exactly what you think is happening in the CONE style limited slip.
But it does add some force to clutch pack, add more clutches you get more surface area.
A simple test, remove the springs from the Cone style limited slip and see what happens

I think a few of you need a hands on class with a few diffs to see the mistakes you're making with this.


Think about what you're saying... if it ramped or rammed then the cone and housing would forever be always binding. There is no torque sensing in a BW style, only rotation and drag, drag makes slip, slip in the powr lok makes more pressure squeezing the clutch pack tighter IF, IF the other wheel is planted, otherwise it creates no further pressure

There is no torque sensing, they are preloaded with springs to have a specific amount of pressure on a binding area, one uses replaceable clutches the other uses the carrier itself.
They sense no torque, they react to slip, THE ONLY DIFF that works with torque are ZF's and it is very complicated, very expensive, and they aren't small like what you're comparing/mistaking a cone style limited slip for.

THIS is the Difference between the TWO designs.

One company designed it that you could replace the clutches when they wore out and made it that it could be serviced outside of there company.

The other company ONLY wanted there hands in it and not give you the ability to service it or have it serviced, this is what borg warner did and auburn has/is continuing to do, it's why they have the exchange program they do, their design and no one else is profiting from it BUT them.


I wish i had time to play with the different designs together and video it, i need a tv show, i promise it would be far better than any other.

But i curse alot so there would be lots of beeps

.
 
Treblig said:
68GTXMan, now there's an engineer who has enough self confidence to know that no one knows everything. My son is currently studying to be a mechanical engineer, I hope my son always has enough brains to know that he can never know everything. Sometimes the old timers (and sometimes younger folks) know a better way. And sometimes it doesn't even make sense...BUT IT WORKS!!! Of all things man has created and accomplished, the only things anyone cares about are those things that actually work!!!

Treblig in Tex
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr. Treblig. Tell your son that an old ME recommends that he look to those who can jury-rig a setup if he wants to see a simple way to solve a problem. Most times when I look at a problem, I try to figure out the easiest and cheapest way to solve it. Then when I get the good fortune to bounce ideas off a good jury-rigger (usually my trusted neighbor, a maintenance supervisor) I discover even simpler and better ways to solve the same problem. No one individual knows everything! Even Thomas Edison hired hundreds of inventors to develop the majority of inventions that he later took credit for.

We all should display more humbleness in our selves. There are always smarter people out there (and even they make mistakes too).

Cheers!
 
Supershafts said:
RRR im not bashing you, BUT you are clearly still making/holding onto a mistake that MANY are apart of.

Whether or not the procedure is right, YOU in fact are gaining nothing over the powr lok style EXCEPT that for you to make it work again it WILL take you far far longer and be more involved than having a clutch PLATE style to rebuild.

.
Click to expand...

If it's a "mistake" as you say, then Auburn shares it and they make the ****. Call them and tell them they got it wrong.
 
Auburn always says never touch it and why they have that exchange program, but i think the TERM torque bias is really making the problem here.

Torque Bias is not, IS NOT torque sensing it is a measure of force between the two, im beginning to think this is the problem and possibly why this issue between the cone clutch and regular clutch exists.

.
 
LINK:

http://www.auburngear.com/aftermark...category=4ea7b7ea-ad65-492a-830f-1b8a333d16ef

Straight from the Auburn site:

"From over the road daily driving to muddy trails and back roads, Auburn Gear's high bias Pro Series and High Performance Series limited-slip differentials outperform standard OEM differentials hands down. They deliver more traction and faster engagement for controlled power transfer and lightning-fast reaction to changing load conditions. No matter what your application - performance or passenger cars, light duty trucks, vans, sport utility vehicles, off road, or recreational vehicles - the Auburn Gear limited-slip differential is engineered to provide smooth TORQUE-SENSING operation with bias ratios to meet your performance needs. This superior performance is achieved through an innovative cone clutch design which transfers more power to the high-traction wheel for quick acceleration and tight cornering. Auburn Gear has a full range of differentials for Chrysler, Ford, GM and Toyota vehicles. All are also compatible with all ABS and electronic controls.


The highly efficient torque transfer capability of the Auburn Gear limited-slip differential is achieved through the use of cone clutches coupled to beveled side gears. As torque is transmitted through the differential side gears to the axle shafts, the SIDE GEAR SEPARATING FORCES and spring pre-load firmly seat the cones into the differential case. The cone design, along with the APPLIED FORCE, determines the torque transfer capability of the differential. When torque levels decrease, as in a cornering maneuver, the gear separating forces also decrease, allowing the axle shafts to rotate independently. All Auburn Gear limited-slip differentials are designed to provide the maximum amount of torque transfer without compromising the performance requirements of a vehicle in situations where torque transfer is not required.

State-of-the-Art Design and Test Lab
You get exactly what you specify -- faster and at a lower cost -- with Auburn Gear's CAE/CAD system, complete with Finite Element Analysis [FEA]. This system allows us to develop and optimize the differential design for your requirements.

These designs are challenged in the real world with our prototype testing labs, where every aspect from metallurgical properties to mechanical performance is proven against the design parameters. Our axle dynamometer tests the differentials to prove the design under load conditions while computer-aided manufacturing systems produce components to individual design specifications.

But testing is not confined to in-house labs alone. Our unique on-site testing capability brings engineers right into the field to prove the design of our limited-slip differentials under actual working conditions. Differentials are subjected to a variety of rigorous vehicle tests to assure you of getting the high performance reliability you need.

Located in the industrial heartland of America, Auburn Gear has the capability and capacity to meet increasing world market demands for traction-enhancing differentials, all while maintaining and improving every aspect of design, quality, delivery, and price which translates to total customer satisfaction for you."

Go tell Auburn your "hard truth" and see how hard they laugh at you. The clutch and cone styles are both torque sensing units. One is simply a different design than the other.
 
Supershafts said:
Auburn always says never touch it and why they have that exchange program, but i think the TERM torque bias is really making the problem here.

Torque Bias is not, IS NOT torque sensing it is a measure of force between the two, im beginning to think this is the problem and possibly why this issue between the cone clutch and regular clutch exists.

.
Click to expand...

They clearly call it "TORQUE SENSING".
 
OK i don't have one here now but this is EVERYTHING inside the Auburn version, which has very little changed from the BW original design.

diff-exploded.jpg



Look at it, LOOK closely... nothing in there sensing, nothing in there with the ability to change something it hasn't sensed....



There is nothing, NOTHING sensing torque or making or have the ability in that Auburn that makes it work like a torque sensing diff.....

It is a play on words, and if i have to i'll call and record the conversation, and when i ask them "so your unit senses torque, just like the ZF ATV differential that senses torque" im sure right then and there in the conversation EVERYTHING will change and then it'll get into no it is not that type of sensing torque, in which i'll say "so then it is not a torque sensing differential" then they'll say no it is not.

There is so much to a torque sensing diff that you would need to remove the gas tank in ANY mopar body style, it has many many different pieces and clutches all over, each side gear, at the pinion, there are planetaries, gears...

Here is a Torque sensing differential.

ZFATVtorquesensingdiff.png
 
lol

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
 
I love ya RRR, I think the word play and the TB is the issue here.
Thru discussions we learn and thru learning we can change things and make them better.

I'm not the greatest person for explanations and teaching in type, I'm a hands on type explaining/ teacher type where I can use the pieces in front of you so you can see how they actually work.
.
I wish everyone a Happy New Year
 
Well, the exact same rotational forces make cones work that make clutches work. They both occupy the same space and perform the same work. The same force that locks clutches together locks cones against the case. Once power is applied preload springs have little to do with it. We simply disagree. It doesn't matter to me that you run a business and do it everyday. I'm not afraid to argue when I am not wrong. I am sorry that your pride won't let admit that you are.
 
RRR my business has nothing to do with what i am saying, what im saying is coming from my learning, my business does what i have and continue to learn.

In my business if i didn't do it like i am i'd be like every other business, my pride in my business is what makes it better than others since i will not allow my customers to experience any type of poor craftsmanship or poor worksmanship.

RRR if i was wrong with the operation of a cone style limited slip vs a plate style limited slip pride wouldn't stop me from saying "oh yeah now that i look at it again, i see that i can leave the springs out and it will still work"

Im not saying that though.

Take the springs from a clutch plate limited slip and you have a open case, take the springs from the cone and the same happens.
.
Increase the amount of clutches or springs psi and you increase the Torque Bias, in a cone style you can only increase the TB by spring only and not by clutch since you can't increase the area of the cone.

If you can't increase area you can't really increase bias, if you can't increase the area you would need to increase the pressure on the area, there is nothing to increase the area in a cone, there are no ACTIVE devices in it to increase pressure, there are no RE-ACTIVE mechanical devices in it to increase pressure.

Again look at the pic of the ZF if you look at the ends where the drive axles or half shafts are used you'll see the clutches, you'll notice outboard of the clutch pack are motors that are the ACTIVE part of the diff and make or increase the torque bias as needed, that is the only torque sensing diff and the only ACTIVE diff able to adjust the torque bias by sensing.

Eaton uses the G lok, or actually known as the egerodisc that uses hyd pressure to increase its bias but it's not sensing either, it is very much like a selectable locker, accept the carrier movement starts a oil pump and it puts pressure on the single side clutch pack until it eventually just locks the case up, not sensing like the ZF does and adjusting it so the control to each wheel is correct.

These are the types of diffs you guys want the SG to be, but they are nothing like it and auburn has nothing like this yet and is simply using a play on words.
Advertizing and word play are important gimmicks that can make a company millions, look at certain companies many people use and follow, most use them based on there website advertizing gimmicks.
I see it all the time if you have the best pics and advertizing it doesn't make a difference that you know nothing, even in my industry the best shops are only the best by the way they advertize, and stage pictures but they don't guarantee what i do, and they don't do what i do nor have what i have living without issue, but they have a better website.

.
 
Isn't "G lok, or actually known as the egerodisc " a play on words. These words are basically "made up" words to get the customer to buy something. Everything sold in the US is given a "made-up" word to make it sound better than the competitor , Dana 60, Locker, Limited slip, etc, etc. Just because a company has a better "made-up" word doesn't make it better or correct relative to the way something functions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is "torque sensing". If this is an argument about what a word means then all is lost because in the end FABO subscribers want to know what works, they do not care what the meaning of is "is"!!

Using the term "play on words" was a big mistake IMO.

treblig
 
Made up words, like rich "Corinthian" leather that was used in Mopar ads to sell cars. It sure sounded good....
 
Treblig said:
Isn't "G lok, or actually known as the egerodisc " a play on words. These words are basically "made up" words to get the customer to buy something. Everything sold in the US is given a "made-up" word to make it sound better than the competitor , Dana 60, Locker, Limited slip, etc, etc. Just because a company has a better "made-up" word doesn't make it better or correct relative to the way something functions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is "torque sensing". If this is an argument about what a word means then all is lost because in the end FABO subscribers want to know what works, they do not care what the meaning of is "is"!!

Using the term "play on words" was a big mistake IMO.

treblig
Click to expand...

G lok is what some of us in our field call the egerodisc, egerodisc is what Eaton calls that unit just like i have names that are different to differentiate different shafts i make. However egerodisc is terrible sounding and i use g lok, but Eatons name is a descriptive name for what that is, and it is gero style pump disc that locks the both sides together by hyd psi.

, Dana 60, Locker, Limited slip, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
Now you're using model names and types and confusing that for descriptive word play, a Dana 60 is a model, a track lok is a limited slip, a powr lok is a limited slip, auburn are limited slips these are TYPES, when you say one is torque sensing now you're playing with words to make something seem better or more appealing than another.

To say locker, limited slip and then models are a play on words is most definitely wrong, locker is a descriptive name for what a locker is, as is limited slip, now some companies want to stand out in descriptions and then you have gimmicks like, Posi, Sure Grip, equa traction and anti spin, all words and gimmicks that all do and mean the same thing.

When you say a locker senses torque and locks , now you're playing with words, it doesn't sense anything same as a limited slip, it is pre-loaded with a spring psi, it then from that has a torque bias , torque bias changes by the differentiation of wheel speed from one side to the other, the bias ratio is a part of the clutch area and spring psi and speed, less of any equals less torque bias, less torque bias equals less breakaway torque needed to make the limited slip slip.
Again NO SENSING is being done, it is a mechanically loaded device that will work by a designed ratio until that torque factor is exceeded



So if all you are interested in are what works then as i said earlier one design is service friendly and one is not, but both are limited slips.
That is the cold hard truth between the two styles of clutch limited slips.


pssst, psssst....
.
.
.
The powr lok is better

.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top