Project Black Betty

Slant 6 Engines

  1. mrhollywood

    mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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    So I named my car Betty and since she is gonna be black in the future...the theme song for my car Black Betty-by Spiderbait... lol anyway I started painting and fixing things in the engine bay. The plan is to turbo charge it in the future.
     

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  2. mrhollywood

    mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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    Before
     

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  3. Divenut

    Divenut Well-Known Member

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    Looking good. It is amazing the difference a little elbow grease and paint makes. Look forward to following your build.

    Pat
     
  4. Motopsycho

    Motopsycho duster domination

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0OFF3q4Pxk"]Ram Jam - Black Betty - YouTube[/ame]
     
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    • Divenut

      Divenut Well-Known Member

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      That's so funny...when I saw the thread posted, that song is the 1st thing that came to mind. Now I can't get it out of my head...wam a lam!
       
    • jhdeval

      jhdeval Well-Known Member

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      Dude I have to say I love the neon green on the engine. I would not have thought that worked but it really does.
       
    • mrhollywood

      mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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      Yeah everybody does the hemi orange or chrysler blue but my fav color is green.I don't care if it's "correct " or not.
       
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      • mrhollywood

        mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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        I know the original is Ram Jam but I like the Spiderbait version better. :)
         
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        • Bill Dedman

          Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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          I think that you've made a wise choice. Slant sixes are GREAT engines... and because of the way the engine is designed, they seem to be excellent choices for forced induction (turbo- or super-charging.)

          They are exceptionally strong engines; it takes a LOT to injure one because of their big bearings, their short, stout 4-main bearing crank and the fact that the block was originallly designed to be aluminum, so all the load-bearing cast pieces (main bearing webs, cylinder-head mating surfaces, and cylinder walls) are thick and strong. The cylinder head was designed to feed 170 cubic inches, which it will do really, really well. When Ma Mopar put a 1-inch-longer stroke crank in it to create the 225 motor, there was nothing done to the cylinder head to upgrade the breathing capabilities. What had been a free-breathing, high-winding (but, small) 170 slant six became an engine that didn't exhibit the same kind of competitive personality the little 170 had. It was still a strong runner, but the operating range that it had been most efficient in, had been moved down the rpm scale, considerably...

          It is possible to end up with a 225 normally-aspirated motor that can generate enough power to pull a 3,000-pound A body Dart or Valiant around with a certain amount spunk, but getting it to run down into the thrteens is an uphill pull, unless you have a lot of money to spend, and/or don't mind taking a lot of weight out of the car.

          Turbocharging isn't cheap by any means; to do it right, if you want to generate much boost, you need forged pistons and rods, (around $1200.00 for those two items) a turbo of course, and several other items that will allow your engine to live longer...

          But, compared with buying a 360 VB, another transmission, an 8.75" rear end, and all the other stuff you have to equip your new V8-powered car with, I think it might be somewhat cheaper to bolt a turbo onto your slant 6.

          The saying is, "Speed costs money; how fast do you want to go?"

          If you could let us know what kind of car you want to end up with and/or how fast you want to go, it might be possible to provide some answers to just how much a turbo slant six car that will do what you want it to, will cost.

          One guy on here, (FABO) put a Buick GN turbo on his otherwise stock slant 6 with a different carb, and ran 12.95-seconds in the quarter. Another FABO user has a '66 Valiant slant six turbo that goes 127 mph in the quarter.

          There's a whole variety of ways to go with this, but it's all about money, of course.

          My contention is this: Unless you want an all-out race car that will run nines, you can build it cheaper by turbocharging your slant 6, if that is the motor you already have.

          Talk to us.... :cheers:
           
        • mrhollywood

          mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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          Hey Bill ! I read your posts all the time! For now i'm going low boost probably 8 lbs to start. I ordered a 4bbl intake with the offs group buy. I can't wait! Probably gonna go with a Precision 6262 turbo like 74dusterkev on slantsix.org.
           
        • MLC Dodge

          MLC Dodge Well-Known Member

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          Wow, I really needed to see that post by Bill! Thank you. You inspired me. I'd already decided to keep my Duster (1974) with the I6, 225 engine. I'd like to take you (and others) up on your offer to help me get my engine where I want it. I want it to be as nimble as possible and, if possible (please don't laugh), a little louder and cooler sounding--if that's possible. Sorry if I hijacked the thread.
           
        • Bill Dedman

          Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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          I just love it when I hear about projects like this being built. What excites me about it is, I am an obsessive tightwad (never had any money, and never expect to,) and I honestly believe that you can go faster and quicker for less money spent, overall, with a turbo'd slant six than with a V8 swap.

          Please don't be a stranger here; there are people here (no me) who actually KNOW what they are talking about and will jump at the chance to help you over the rough spots, and there will be some... LOL!

          Your project sounds like you're off to a good start; just let us know how we can help! There are also a lot of folks on Slantsix.org with tons of good information.

          Good luick, and keep us posted!:cheers:

          Bill
           
        • bbrroowwnn

          bbrroowwnn never re member

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          Nice work there looks good....Actually the song was originally done by leadbelly back in the 20s or 30s..,,,then Ram Jam redid it....it is an old folk song....
           
        • Bill Dedman

          Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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          Well, I am glad that somebody else "gets it." These turbo slant sixes are a too-well-kept secret as far as I am concerned.

          It's really easy to locate a junkyard 360/904 powertrain and swap it into a car like yours; after all, the factory put them in there, originally, so everything "fits."

          But, consider these factors:

          If you want a low 12-second car (3,200 pounds,) to get that kind of performance out of a 360 V8, you're probably going to need a pretty radical cam, a thirsty 4-bbl, some headers, an expensive 8.75" rear end, geared in the 4.10:1 range, more compression than you can get with stock, cast, pistons, a high stall torque converter, an Edelbrock Air Gap, or some other non-stock intake manifold, and at least a 2.5" dual exhaust system. What you will have is a car that runs well on the drag strip, but has a ragged idle that gets old fast around town, and a car that is turning 3,400 rpm trying to keep up with traffic on the freeway. Good for racing, and fun at stoplights, and that's about it.. and, thirsty....

          A low 12-second turbocharged slant six that will live a long happy life, will need a set of forged pistons, and rods. Those are really the only expensive parts. The rest of the engine can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. By that, I mean, for example, when we built our engine (a 225) we had to build our own header. Nobody I know of makes a turbo header for a slant six. We spent about $1,000.00 on that thing, but we COULD have done what FABO member PISHTA did, and bolted a piece of U-Bend exhaust tubing onto the existing cast iron exhaust manifold and bolted the turbo onto that, for much less than a hundred dollars. Might not look as spiffy, and MAYBE it won't run as good, but we don't know that; it might run JUST as well... and it was over $900.00 cheaper!:cheers:


          Most of the financial advantages of this operation compared with a V8 swap, are gained in terms of the things you will NOT have to buy. For example, the entire stock valvetrain, including the cam, will work just fine. That means a stock idle. That means a stock torque converter will work very well. The exhaust system can be as little as you need it to be, (in terms of number of separate pieces, not diameter,) because a turbo homoginizes the sound waves and quiets things down to the point that you probably won't need a muffler at all; just a tail-pipe.

          The most desirable rear end will be a cheap, 8.25" unit out of a late-model (1973/'74/'75/'76) Dart or Valiant. The strange thing about these turbo slant 6's, is their love for being loaded to the gills... so, where a V8 needs a 4.10 gear, the best gear for a turbo /6 is a 2.73:1, which the '74 Valiant probably already has. Tests have proven that the fastest times turned for the turbo '6s were done with final drive ratios in the 2's... weird, but really handy, because it makes for relaxed hiway cruising and is fine around town. Great for gas mileage, too...


          No "new" transmission will be needed (your slant 6 transmission will not bolt to a V-eight) with a freshening up on the original 904, the only thing you'd probably want to to, there. Pretty cheap, comaparatively...

          You WILL need a 4bbl intake manifold; I don't think with boost, it makes much difference wwhether its a Clifford or an Offy. They're on EBay for about $200,00, usually.

          A 500-cfm Holley (2-bbl) on the 4-bbl manifold with an adapter, or that same carb on a Super six 2bbl manifold might be cheaper, and would probably work just as well. Either way, the only expensive part of that deal will be the blow-thru mods to the carb. There are people on this board that can help you with either locating someone to do it for you, or recommending a website that will explain how to do it, yourself.

          Performance? Tom Wolfe (Shaker 223 on FABO) took a BONE STOCK 225 slant six, put a bigger carb and a Buick turbo and ran 12.95@ 104mph with it.

          Here is the video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

          The head was stock; the cam was stock... everything was stock except for the carb/manifold and the junkyard Buick G/N turbo.

          To get into the low 12's, you might want to install some bigger valves into the head, or get a cam with more lift. I think those would do it.

          Just some ideas here, to fire the imagination and show what is possible by thinking "ourside the box."

          Tom has built a better engine for his car. Last time out, it went 11.02 @ 120mph into a 15-mph headwind! That's with bigger valves and a ported head (Holley 4-bbl, headers, and a different cam and converter.)

          Here's the video for that run... and that's at 3,300 pounds

          [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxRmoDgsdY"]Turbo charged Slant 6 11.02 @ 120.56 - YouTube[/ame]

          His engine isn't radical at all...
          Think about what you'd have to do to a 360 to get it to run 11-flat...

          You pays your money and you takes your choice... :)

          Good luck!!!

          Bill
           

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          • RustyRatRod

            RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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            You know, whether you like the color there or not (and I do) you gotta respect how clean of a job you did. Although the engine bay stiil has yet to be detailed, what you DID do turned very clean and nice. Good job.
             
          • DusterKrazy

            DusterKrazy Well-Known Member

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            I'm all for turbo /6 but it is not an easy bolt on and then go 12's with it. It will take a bit of tinkering to get you there. Have fun!

            Swapping the rear end is going to happen whether you have a turbo /6 or a v8. A 7.25 will not with stand the power of a turbo very long or at all really.

            Looks like you have a good start on the project though!! Keep posting!!
             
          • mrhollywood

            mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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            Yeah needs more cleaning ,painting,and organizing! But I need to pull the engine again to paint the block. I pulled it out once to replace the piston rings,timing chain....didn't have the time to paint...long story.... But I'll paint it when I am ready to pu the turbo on since I need to put a oil return line in the pan and i rather do that with the pan off!

            I'm planning on getting a 8.25 rearend off a 73'-up dart. I recently located a junk yard that has cars 80s and older only,so i hope they have what i need. My next project in the engine bay is to do a HEI conversion and recurve mod.
             
          • mrhollywood

            mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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            Hey Bill , what size are the primary tube on your header?
             
          • mrhollywood

            mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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            Cool! didn't know that ...but then again I'm still in my 20s..i think the Ram Jam was even before my time! lol
             
          • Bill Dedman

            Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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            1.625"
             
          • Bill Dedman

            Bill Dedman bill dedman Legendary Member

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            I agree thoroughly!

            Swapping the rear end is, however, subject to some interpretation.

            I have a 1972 V8 A Body with a 360 Magnum equipped with a Vortech supercharger that I drive on the street with SOME trips to the drags for grins. It runs mid-11's (at 3,300 pounds) in the quarter at about 118 mph. Does duty as a grocery-getter.

            I have a 4.10 gear for it with a Sure-Grip that works well in the traction-enhanced environment of asphalt + VHT, (plus some 9" slicks,) that it sees at the track. That's about as good as I can do on the gear, as this car has the stock hydraulic-roller lifters with not a whole lot of valve spring pressure, which limits my redline to a little over 6,000 rpm.

            It's not a "rev-happy" small block at all... :(

            I experience about 3,500 rpm at 70 mph on the highway with that rear gear, using 28"-tall tires. That 3.56"-stroke small block doesn't much like extended periods at that rpm, given the valve train. Not that it won't do it; it will, but it's not what you'd call "relaxed" at that rpm.

            I also have a 2.73:1 third member which I swap into that housing if I am planning a trip of any distance at all, that would involve highway driving.

            That third-member gives me a more-relaxed 2,330 rpm cruise for the freeway, at the same 70 mph.

            Unless you want to engineer an overdrive of some sort for your warmed-over small block, you're probably going to have to something like I did; an 8.75" rear makes it easy and quick to swap ratios.

            The turbo slant six is a weird machine that likes to be "held back," for building more boost, so in that vein, the word I get from the two fastest turbo slanters on this board, tells me that a 2.73:1 final drive, works best for drag racing for them. Go figure...

            They both run that ratio in their approximately 500-horsepower cars, with good results. They even claim that 2.73:1 ratio works well for their 60-foot times...

            That low-numerical ratio allows them to use the same gear for highway cruising AND drag racing, so there's no necessity to have the capabilty of quick, easy gear changes, such as the 8.75" unit makes possible.

            The fact is, 8.75" A body housings have gotten relatively hard to find at a cheap price.

            The far less-costly 8.25" units that come in some of the '73-and-up A Bodies are plenty strong for a turbo slant 6, and usually, are fitted at the factory with a ratio in the mid-to-high 2's... so they are probably going to bolt in more cheaply that the drop-out housing option (the 8.75" unit) plus, you only will need one gearset for that rear end; the one that it comes with. Another plus is, that I THINK those '73-up 8.25" rears all have axles that are drilled for the 4.5" bolt pattern; not positive about that. ut, I am pretty sure that there was never an A-body 8.75" rear with a large bolt pattern. That is a small consideration, but just one more thing you won't have to deal with if you go the turbo /6 (8.25") route.

            I believe you're also right about the fact that it will take some tuning to get a turbo slant 6 onto the "good" 12's, unless you spend some money on pistons and rods (forged) that will allow you to crank up the boost.

            Tom Wolfe's 3,300-pound '70 Dart ran 12.95 in the quarter with an almost completely-stock 225, using a junkyard turbo off a G/N Buick, but he had the boost cranked up to around 20 pounds; not a good way to enhance life-expectancy on stock, cast, pistons... LOL!

            Ten pounds (boost) will probably prove to have some longivity, but that won't get you into the twelves...

            Choices, choices, choices.... lol!

            Lots of luck to everyone concerned!!!

            Bill
             
          • Palmetto

            Palmetto Well-Known Member

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            The green looks fantastic!
             
          • cheyne68dart

            cheyne68dart slant-six 225

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            Hey what year is this I want that valve cover for my slant?
             
          • mrhollywood

            mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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            My car is a 1970 Dodge Dart Custom.
             
          • mrhollywood

            mrhollywood Well-Known Member

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            I currentlyhave my windsheild and dash out of the car. Painted the dash and pad last night.Also changing wiper seals while i'm at it. I also recently put a harmonic balancer for slant truck since mine was messed up.
             

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