Rich bog off idle?

-

DesertRat

Leading edge boomer
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
3,255
Reaction score
3,142
Location
Moses Lake, Washington
273 commando build with ld4b and holly 4150. Timing 12 initial and 36 all in. 904 with 3:73
8 1/4. 5.5 PV with 52 primary jets. My wideband is dropping to low 12's leaving stop. Comes on hard about 1500/2000 and adjusts to high 13's to mid 14's at cruise. Wondering how to lean it up off idle and keep the 1800 rpm up tuning.
I am no adjusting timing again, has to be all carb tuning. Gurus--------???????
 
Low 12's won't cause a rich bog, so there is something else going on.
Try disconnecting vacuum advance and try it just for giggles.
It's possible that the vac advance is pushing your timing too high right off idle.
 
Low 12's won't cause a rich bog, so there is something else going on.
Try disconnecting vacuum advance and try it just for giggles.
It's possible that the vac advance is pushing your timing too high right off idle.
Set it up initial without VA. After initial testing connected it to ported vacuum. Thanks though, I will try it again.
 
Set it up initial without VA. After initial testing connected it to ported vacuum. Thanks though, I will try it again.

What I meant was to try it with it disconnected in case it's throwing too much advance right off idle.
Of course that only applies if you are running ported vacuum and not full manifold vacuum.
 
do you have a vent baffle ?

baffle.jpg


baffle1.jpg
 
under acceleration gas can go up the vent and into the top of the carb,
the baffle goes in the metering block

baffle2.jpg
 
A little more info, I had initial at 20 and total at 38 with a limiter plate on the mechanical. I would go into detonation about 3200 rpm, too much advance but ran like a rocket through
the rest of the range. I had to get the total down to something acceptable so I reset the initial to 12 and reset the limiter plate tighter two notches and the vacuum signal to the carb changed. It liked the 20 initial but I was afraid I would to detonation damage. I got it tuned to cold and hot idle in the 800/700 range and the A/F ratios where I want them through the range. Because I only have 1200 miles on the engine I haven't wanted to take it above 4000 yet but I built it to turn 5500.
The only problem I seem to be having now is low gear off idle the A/F seems to richen more than I want and the car does have a bit of a bog. I don't want to change the timing profile I have in the car now. I should be able to get it with Carb adjustment-my thought.
Thanks for reading------------DR-------------
 
I think your timings are pretty close.
You say it comes on hard at 1500, so I'm assuming you have a low-stall TC in that 904. And since you called it a 904, I'm also guessing it has the 2.45 low-gear. Taken together that makes 3.73x2.45=a 9.14 starter gear. With the lo-stall, and a 273 Commando, you don't have a bunch of take-off torque, so there will not be a lot of TM in the convertor.
To get moving without a bog, the secondaries will need to stay closed a bit longer. Longer than what? Longer than you might want them to.
Also, the accelerator pump will need to overcome the sag, but note that the richness from this pump should be seen on the A/F gauge as fleeting, not remaining for more than a second or so.

Now, getting to my pet, the T-port sync.
The more idle timing you run, the faster the idle speed goes. So what do you do: you close the curb-idle screw.But this reduces the T-port flow, which is your low-speed fuel delivery system. So, in compensation, you crank open the mixture screws,right. Then, your vacuum gauge is telling you the idle vacuum went up, so your thinking becomes "that worked, so I'll try more idle-timing". So then you crank it up to 20*. And the idle speed again rises, and again you back out the speed screw, and increase the mixture screw opening. This works just fine at idle, cuz you are trading Transfer delivery for idle-port delivery.
But think about what is happening.
The Transfer slot gets to be nearly closed. It becomes easier for the engine to pull air around the throttle blade thru the transfer port. You know,maybe 98% of the slot is above the blade. So then the engine pulls air thru the slot, and it pretty much dries up. But no worries the mixture screws are doing the job, right.
But now, along comes DR and steps on the gas. Well,right off; the transfers have to wake up.During the wake up phase, you just increase the pump-shot to overcome the sag, which you call a bog. Then the transfers come alive. Suddenly there is lots of fuel there and POW! she takes off!.
But now while cruising, at low-rpm, The transfers are supposed to be the go-to circuit. But your idle discharge ports are on steroids and chugging fuel all-the-time, and so your A/F gauge reads that .
Of course I have exaggerated for literary effect. And you may not be having this scenario; but it is something to consider.
If your mixture screws are too-far from stock, it may be pointing at this.
The cure for my 367, was a two-stage advance curve. It starts very early, allowing me to run a very low idle-timing, to get the T-port synced in a good place. But then it comes to nearly a full-stop at 2800rpm. From there-on the timing slows right down to be all in at about 3400.
With this curve, I can run 87E10 at full-timing with aluminum heads and a Scr of 10.9. I have a stick-car and they are, Or at least mine was, very sensitive to,too much low-speed timing, with street-gears.
If you had a hi-stall,say a 2400 or better, You might not be having this problem.

I call it a tip-in sag.
The usual cure in my experience, has been to screw in the curb idle screw for more transfer-port fuel, to reduce the idle-timing to get the idle-speed down, and then to tweak the mixture screws closer to stock. After the tip-in sag is normalized, I can tweak the accelerator pump leaner or later or both. Then I attack the power-timing curve, finding out where the detonation limits are at about 400 rpm intervals. Then I mod the dizzy to make it all happen.
Then I gets me a 20/22* Vcan, and I try to make that baby work.
If you do it right,you can get the VA to come in and stay, down to about 10 or even 8 inches of spark-port vacuum. This is a already at a pretty good amount of power delivery on the mainjets but not yet on the power valve.
Say you had to reset the Idle-timing to 8* to get the T-port synced up. And say all of the 22* in the can could be made to all be in at 10 inches. Effectively, your engine would be seeing 8 plus 22 =30 degrees of Part-Throttle timing; on the mains and accelerating briskly! Then as the rpm increases, the mechanical timing increases and at some point you may be running up to 36+22=58* of PT cruise timing.That would be pretty sweet.
I call this at about 3600 in first and doing 30 mph. It could happen again at 3600 in second or 50 mph. By third gear maybe not.Remember this is PT timing. It will be your job to determine how soon you can bring in the VA;but this may also reduce the amount. If you have to limit it to too much,sometimes it is better to swap out that 22* can for a 16* or something else.
If this PT timing increases your engine efficiency from stall to say 2800, say getting you 15 or 20 ftlbs, you can run a smaller throttle opening to drive normally, and decrease your in-traffic fuel useage. 20 ftlbs at 2800 would be about 11 horsepower@40 mph in second gear. More power on less fuel!

I know, another novel,sorry :(
 
Last edited:
Does it actually bog during acceleration, or just run rich at low speed? Sounds like it just runs richers than you'd like at low speeds. What speed does it start to lean out at? What kind of carb is it? If it's adjustable, you may want to try smaller idle feed restrictors. You'll need to re-adjust the mixture screws and may have to change out main jets to compensate after that, but it'll definitely lean out low speed AFRs.
 
If it liked 20 initial, you are fighting an uphill battle.

Detonation is caused because it has too much advance at certain points in the curve when under load. Less mechanical advance would be the first thing to adjust. 38 is apparently too much for your deal, so back it down to the 34-36 range and see if it runs without detonation. Pulling initial out is NOT the answer.

Too quick on feeding in mech timing can be a cause, not usually. That is controlled with varying spring rates on advance weights (faster or slower feed in rates.)

It WILL run fatter with less initial timing, both at idle and when you crack the throttle.

The break in thing is BS, it's not the 60's with machining tolerances. How many miles are on an engine destined for a dyno... they aren't babied when obtaining peak performance numbers.
 
Last edited:
If it liked 20 initial, you are fighting an uphill battle.

Detonation is caused because it has too much advance at certain points in the curve when under load. Less mechanical advance would be the first thing to adjust. 38 is apparently too much for your deal, so back it down to the 34-36 range and see if it runs without detonation. Pulling initial out is NOT the answer.

Too quick on feeding in mech timing can be a cause, not usually. That is controlled with varying spring rates on advance weights (faster or slower feed in rates.)

It WILL run fatter with less initial timing, both at idle and when you crack the throttle.

The break in thing is BS, it's not the 60's with machining tolerances. How many miles are on an engine destined for a dyno... they aren't babied when obtaining peak performance numbers.
Yeah, I have been thinking the same thing. I think I have the mechanical limited where it needs to be now and it really really liked the 18-20 initial. Ran good through the entire range and was easy to set up the carb tuning to make the A/F numbers I wanted. I got cautious about the detonation. Sounded like lifter rattle but I know it was detonation.
Went through and adjusted all the valves one more time and it is wanting to run, just keep missing the dial-in.
 
What carb, you say 4150, cfm? vacuum sec, what dist chrysler elec? You need to drive it with a vacuum gauge on the manifold and when it bogges what is the vacuum? And put a T in the vacuum line going to the dist adv and see what it is when it bogges. what cam?
I believe these are the most important things to know when you are trying to fix a problem.
 
273 commando build with ld4b and holly 4150. Timing 12 initial and 36 all in. 904 with 3:73
8 1/4. 5.5 PV with 52 primary jets. My wideband is dropping to low 12's leaving stop. Comes on hard about 1500/2000 and adjusts to high 13's to mid 14's at cruise. Wondering how to lean it up off idle and keep the 1800 rpm up tuning.
I am no adjusting timing again, has to be all carb tuning. Gurus--------???????

HI im doing research on how to turn my 66 val 273 4 speed into a commando, it says the 4150 double pumper is the proper carb for the build. How does your commando run with that set up ?
 
Not a Commando ;
but My 318 loves a DP. Both with a 4-speed and also with a 904, and with any rear gear. In the 904, I run a 2800TC.
The next best carb I have found is a ThermoQuad.
I'm guessing you know that the Commandos were high-compression engines. And so hi-compression engines are more responsive in every way.
They say automatic equipped engines should run vacuum-secondary carbs. But I don't buy that.
Low-compression, low-rpm, smogger-slugs (like mine),with 2.76 gears and 1700rpm stalls? yeah that I can buy might do better with a VS carb. But not any performance combo. Certainly not one with a manual trans.
But; if you are willing to spend the time on it, a VS carb can do the job just fine on the street.
A couple of things to keep in mind are; the design of the engine determines how much air it will flow. As long as the carb is physically able to meet the demand, a bigger carb will not make it any quicker or faster.
And the engine, at WOT, doesn't care how many barrels is feeding it.
But, in a streeter, the carb plays a huge role in making a combo driveable, and fun; Smaller is almost always better.
 
HI im doing research on how to turn my 66 val 273 4 speed into a commando, it says the 4150 double pumper is the proper carb for the build. How does your commando run with that set up ?
Model 4150 in Holley speak covers a wide range of carburetors that have similar designs.
If you are going to recreate the Commando package, look up the "List number" of the carburetor used. That will give you the specific carb. Even if you can not find that exact list number, it will be what is needed to cross reference similar list numbers. One advantage of the orignal Chrysler carbs is that they are set up to work with the factory choke coil on the intake manifold. This is the simplest automatic choke arrangement.

The basics of how a carburetor works is covered very well in Mike Urich's Holley 4150/60 Carburetors. Its a small book you can buy used for cheap. Virtually the same material is included in the larger book by Urich and Fisher. So if you see that one for a good price, that will do fine.
 
A little more info, I had initial at 20 and total at 38 with a limiter plate on the mechanical. I would go into detonation about 3200 rpm, too much advance but ran like a rocket through
the rest of the range. I had to get the total down to something acceptable so I reset the initial to 12 and reset the limiter plate tighter two notches and the vacuum signal to the carb changed. It liked the 20 initial but I was afraid I would to detonation damage. I got it tuned to cold and hot idle in the 800/700 range and the A/F ratios where I want them through the range. Because I only have 1200 miles on the engine I haven't wanted to take it above 4000 yet but I built it to turn 5500.
The only problem I seem to be having now is low gear off idle the A/F seems to richen more than I want and the car does have a bit of a bog. I don't want to change the timing profile I have in the car now. I should be able to get it with Carb adjustment-my thought.
Thanks for reading------------DR-------------
If you have 1200 miles on it it is well broking in, let it wind up.
Mechanical timing curve my be to fast. What distributor?
You may have a fuel and timing issue.
I dont trust AFR meters - read the plugs they will tell you alot. Post some good pic's of the plugs showing the ground strap.
 
-
Back
Top